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Does any other race have

troops with pseudo-rending shooting?

A highly mobile toughness 8 monstrous creature that small arms cannot touch?

over 80% of weaponry AP 3, mostly AP 2, or able to be AP 2 (bladestorm)?

initiative striking ap 2 melee weapons?

an AP 2 flamer?

Eldar players pay for their rending. The Da cost as much as a marine but is one less toughness, one less strengh and has 6" less range. THe guardians are only range 12, and cost 3-4 points less than a marine, and only have a 5+ save.

Dire Avengers are a point cheaper than a space marine, and Guardians are five points cheaper.

Certainly Marines individually have some small advantages, but overall the Eldar army is better at a lot of things.

Although the Guardians do have a significantly shorter range, if they get within firefight range they do have a pretty good chance of mauling an equivalent points value of Space Marines.

Its true but when they start to engage at your range 24" you shoot, 10 shots, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wounds=dead guardians. guards move 6",run 4'. marines move 1 '" and fire full auto, total 13.33 dead guard. 7 make it in range and fire killing 5 marines. 5 marines shoot at rapid fire range total=17.77 dead guardians. guards kill 1.5 more= total 6.5 dead marines. marines finish off the guards. 20 guards cost more than 10 marines, and this is without special weapons.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Its true but when they start to engage at your range 24" you shoot, 10 shots, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wounds=dead guardians. guards move 6",run 4'. marines move 1 '" and fire full auto, total 13.33 dead guard. 7 make it in range and fire killing 5 marines. 5 marines shoot at rapid fire range total=17.77 dead guardians. guards kill 1.5 more= total 6.5 dead marines. marines finish off the guards. 20 guards cost more than 10 marines, and this is without special weapons.

I have never gotten to shoot boltguns at Eldar infantry in such quantity. They are all in indestructible Wave Serpents. I don't have that many boltguns left by the time I decmech the Eldar. I can't believe someone can defend this codex. It's the worst thing since the GK, and even better I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slayer222 wrote:
Eldar players pay for their rending. The Da cost as much as a marine but is one less toughness, one less strengh and has 6" less range. THe guardians are only range 12, and cost 3-4 points less than a marine, and only have a 5+ save.

They don't pay enough. Teqs were bad enough before this codex hit. Now they are all paper weights.

Marines are an embarassing mess compared to this codex.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Its true but when they start to engage at your range 24" you shoot, 10 shots, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wounds=dead guardians. guards move 6",run 4'. marines move 1 '" and fire full auto, total 13.33 dead guard. 7 make it in range and fire killing 5 marines. 5 marines shoot at rapid fire range total=17.77 dead guardians. guards kill 1.5 more= total 6.5 dead marines. marines finish off the guards. 20 guards cost more than 10 marines, and this is without special weapons.

That sounds bleak. My condolences on having to tough out 6th edition with such a codex.

THis was commenting on your complaint on rending, i am not even going to begin to defend the serpent. Eldar have 3 op builds, seer council, Wraith spam(knight), and wave serpent spam. All else is moderate except banshees, harlequins, and the flyers(esp the wraith version), and the pheonix lords.

Grim Dark wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody *should* be OP, that's why we have points to assign value to units. Otherwise, why would you play anything but the OP race?

This is only important if you are considering a competitive environment like a tournament. Otherwise, you should be forging a narrative.

Cheers!

I was about to ask if you work for GW with a comment like that, but then realized that you were on the interwebz talking to people, so no, you can't be from GW.

 Slayer222 wrote:
THis was commenting on your complaint on rending, i am not even going to begin to defend the serpent. Eldar have 3 op builds, seer council, Wraith spam(knight), and wave serpent spam. All else is moderate except banshees, harlequins, and the flyers(esp the wraith version), and the pheonix lords.

It all kind of works together.

I think that in some ways the Eldar are where Necrons were in the end of 5th.

You have to deliberately limit yourself when choosing your army in order for your opponent to have fun.

It would be good if we could all turn up with armies built with units we like from our codex and have a roughly even chance of winning, but that doesn't seem to be how GW rolls.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Eldar players pay for their rending. The Da cost as much as a marine but is one less toughness, one less strengh and has 6" less range. THe guardians are only range 12, and cost 3-4 points less than a marine, and only have a 5+ save.

They don't, really, because they also get battle-focus and assault weapons (instead of the vastly inferior rapid-fire) thrown in for free.

They have 18'' range, but that means little because battle-focus allows them to consistently kite out of marine's rapid-fire range, ensuring that they'll always put out twice as many shots as a tac squad.

Literally, the only things Marines have that DA don't is the 3+ save and ATSKNF, the latter of which is one of the most overrated perks in 6th edition.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think that in some ways the Eldar are where Necrons were in the end of 5th.

You have to deliberately limit yourself when choosing your army in order for your opponent to have fun.

It would be good if we could all turn up with armies built with units we like from our codex and have a roughly even chance of winning, but that doesn't seem to be how GW rolls.

5th ed crons weren't anywhere near as OP...

Da 10 vs marine 10 with heavy bolter.(the worst heavy weapon). lets say Da enter 24". Marines shoot, kill 3.67. 6Da move into 18" shoot dart out killing 2.67. The marines kill 2.97 total=(6.64).
3 remaining Da kill 1.3 (3.97). Marines-2.77 (9.41...........
They also have +1 s/t, and the marines special rule is really good with alot of the fear going around, without it the wraith fighter would be 3 times as effective.
In short the marines win loosing a little less than half.
The pseudo rending is great but eldar pay for more offense with less defense.
This was without using rapid fire range, rapid fire weaponry also got a great boost in 6th edition and tau love their pulse rifles.

(necrons are still op so...) (and with 6th edition they got a boost flyers everywhere).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Literally, the only things Marines have that DA don't is the 3+ save and ATSKNF, the latter of which is one of the most overrated perks in 6th edition.

And 6 inches less range (meaning the marines could get the first shots off) and T3 instead of 4. But nobody cares about it because almost everyone puts their Dire Avengers into a Serpent which is "clever" because it negates their weak points. So actually this is whining about the Serpent (like Hater no. 1 martel034876 about the Guardians which are estimated too strong because they always go with a Serpent).

I forgot, the DA got the powerful close combat Exarch. Helps a lot when kiting out all sorts of enemies!

Yes eldar have synergy ways to fix some of their problems and weaknesses. But. If you disclude the serpent as already op, and conclude the 2 units in a vacum one is superior against the other, now marines are usually in cover firing their heavy weapons and da usually have to rush forward to get within shooting range. (guardians have the options of heavy weapons but they are less effective than on other platforms. Oh and serpents if you spam them you have to atleast pay a troops tax of 65 points. meaning the its costing you 200+ points for that serpent.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Does any other race have

troops with pseudo-rending shooting?

A highly mobile toughness 8 monstrous creature that small arms cannot touch?

over 80% of weaponry AP 3, mostly AP 2, or able to be AP 2 (bladestorm)?

initiative striking ap 2 melee weapons?

an AP 2 flamer?

(Dire Avenger) ShuriCat = AP5 / rend
ShuriCan = AP4 / rend
Lasblaster = AP5
* Sunrifle = AP3
* Hawk Talon = AP5
Longrifle = AP5 / rend
Starcannon = AP2
Scatter Laser = AP-
Deathspinner = AP- / rend
* Spinnerete Rifle = AP2
Shadow Weaver = AP- / rend
Nightspinner = AP- / rend
Missile Launcher (Star) = AP3
Missile Launcher (Plasma) = AP4
Prism (lance) = AP1
Prism (focus) = AP2
Prism (disperse) = AP3
Bright Lance = AP2
Wraithcannon = AP2
Heavy Wraithcannon = AP2
D-Scythe = AP2
Heavy D-Scythe = AP2
D-Cannon = AP2
Vibrocannon = AP4/3/2 depending on number of hits
Reaper Launcher = AP3
* Reaper Exarch's barrage thingy = AP3

80% wasn't a bad guess after all, now that I list them - depending on how hyperbole you want to go on the pseudo-rending. Most weapons are placed on platforms where you expect AP3 or better, though. Should be noted that Shadow Weaver actually lost rending (it was downgraded to pseudo).

Galorian wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think that in some ways the Eldar are where Necrons were in the end of 5th.

You have to deliberately limit yourself when choosing your army in order for your opponent to have fun.

It would be good if we could all turn up with armies built with units we like from our codex and have a roughly even chance of winning, but that doesn't seem to be how GW rolls.

5th ed crons weren't anywhere near as OP...

You mustn't have played with a good 'cron, or possibly they can't have had enough Douche Cannoes or those rending 3++ wraith thingies whatever their name is.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Da 10 vs marine 10 with heavy bolter.(the worst heavy weapon). lets say Da enter 24". Marines shoot, kill 3.67. 6Da move into 18" shoot dart out killing 2.67. The marines kill 2.97 total=(6.64).
3 remaining Da kill 1.3 (3.97). Marines-2.77 (9.41...........
They also have +1 s/t, and the marines special rule is really good with alot of the fear going around, without it the wraith fighter would be 3 times as effective.
In short the marines win loosing a little less than half.
The pseudo rending is great but eldar pay for more offense with less defense.
This was without using rapid fire range, rapid fire weaponry also got a great boost in 6th edition and tau love their pulse rifles.

(necrons are still op so...) (and with 6th edition they got a boost flyers everywhere).

-Dire Avengers get a good deal for a nice stateline, the ability to run and shoot (this is a pretty big deal, actually), and high-strength, assault weapons which are good at drowning units in shots AND getting through heavy armour (hell, any wound you score on most MCs is going to be AP2) and can glance AV 10 to death. To top it all off 4+ armour is good against AP- to AP5 and you're not loosing out as bad as 3+ armour units when something AP3 or better decides to shoot at them. In my experience AP4 weapons are relatively rare--the only really common ones I see are the Autocannon and Psycannon, and if your opponent is shooting your Avengers with those then you've won the game or you're hopelessly loosing.

-Tactical Marines pay a point more than Dire Avengers for a less-impressive gun with either 6" more range, but half the shots, or equal damage output against light infantry and AV 10 at 12" , but struggles with heavier armour (especially 2+). The marines get +1 S/T (the Strength doesn't really matter), Frag and Krak grenades (in general Tactical Marines don't want to be on assault duty, though), and Power Armour as advantages over the Avengers. Unfortunately the opponent is actually getting more of their points' worth out of killing Marines with his Battle Cannons and Baleflamers than he is when he uses those against Dire Avengers. Whereas the Dire Avenger's 4+ armour is just right in terms of efficiency, 3+ armour is just way to easy to ignore or drown in cheap shooting to be a more efficient use of points than the Dire Avengers' focus on killing power.

The only other thing that Marines have going for them is their ability to dabble in other roles (a la Combi/Special/Heavy weapons)--but this costs yet more points and often times these weapons are used against something which boltguns aren't efficient at killing. When X Marines fight X Dire Avengers the marines stand a good chance, but I think Dire Avengers are much more efficient overall--in short it feels like I'm getting a pretty good bargain when I take Dire Avengers, but I feel like I'm paying some sort of Imperial Points Tax when I take Marines.

 Slayer222 wrote:
Yes eldar have synergy ways to fix some of their problems and weaknesses. But. If you disclude the serpent as already op, and conclude the 2 units in a vacum one is superior against the other, now marines are usually in cover firing their heavy weapons and da usually have to rush forward to get within shooting range. (guardians have the options of heavy weapons but they are less effective than on other platforms. Oh and serpents if you spam them you have to atleast pay a troops tax of 65 points. meaning the its costing you 200+ points for that serpent.

You keep changing the boundaries to make the Eldar look bad (which is hard to do) - so now the Marines are in cover and the Eldar aren't - but then you are missing out on one of the many issues with Cheese Serpents - they ignore cover..............

The so called "tax" on the serpent is usually small Scoring units which you have to take anyway in order to claim objectives etc - so its not a tax but actually a way of having your cake and eating it. Compare the Serpent with the Rhino or Razorback which the Serpent also is able to shred with its super death kill shield gun

They have the same basic weapons, same BS - except of course the Eldar get Rending and Assault 2, yes its 6" less range but they have battle focus to let them choose what range they are at. Both get armour saves against primary weapon. If the Marines want to get in CC they have to use Bolt Pistols, both are same WS and BS but the Eldar strike first in Close Combat - which is huge if they have someone with a power weapon and force shield, like a DA Exarch?

base 10 man Tac squad is 140pts with no upgrades, Base 10 man DA squad is 130pts with no upgrade, now no one plays either like this.......but that's a straight comparison.

The big problem is the Serpent - as you say why use anything else - that means either the other transports are reubbish (which they are not) or the Serpent is OP - which it patently is.

I'm actually fine with marines sucking. I would really like them to be bottom tier army instead of middle of the road. After all the poster time its good that the xenos, tau, eldar, nids, (hopefully orks), and so on get some attention. Yes i know 3+/2+ saves aren't as good as they used to be, hell i play grey knight and don't spam henchmen and every model counts but against general fire/ 2/3 of the fire eldar give out they still get their save since the wounding is only on 6's. All this pseudo rend was given probable to deal with the t9 monsterous (biomancy) creatures like every other codex got we just happened to get it on our shuriken weapons that used to suck so badly that eldar players used to cry. ( but after marines get kicked around for atleast a year or two then i would say its okay to let them get back up, to bad they had to make them middle of the road oh well).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
we also don't have any other options for dedicated transports.



As for dedicated transports "weapon platforms" look at razor backs. (not saying they are op). They can take las and a twin linked plasma cannon, and have 2 for the price of our serpents. Yes they loos the shield but no one is counting the shield defensively in this scenario. They also have 1 less av to front /side but now have 2x the amount of hull points in the army. Giving the fact that you can plump them in cover to atleast get a 5+ cover save These two vehicles can put out serious damage for a dedicated transport.

My bad I Missed that you can't take a Falcon as a DT - another error in the Codex then

If you want seriously want another army to suck that I can't take you seriously - the point of the game is for everyone to have a good army and have fun not make "your" army OP and screw everyone else....that's just sad.

Razorbacks don't get Fast, Skimmer, jink, holo fields, serpent shield, carry only 6 people, have less AP, no pseudo rending weapons......and so on

The Wave Serpent can also have extra AT guns - Bright Lance for 5pts - S8, AP2 Lance, not that it needs it due to the cheese shield gun

Razorback in cover - is that the thing that the Serpent ignores - oh yes it is when it fires D6+1 S7 TL shots at it..........at range 60", bye bye Razorback

 Mr Morden wrote:
My bad I Missed that you can't take a Falcon as a DT - another error in the Codex then

If you want seriously want another army to suck that I can't take you seriously - the point of the game is for everyone to have a good army and have fun not make "your" army OP and screw everyone else....that's just sad.

Razorbacks don't get Fast, Skimmer, jink, holo fields, serpent shield, carry only 6 people, have less AP, no pseudo rending weapons......and so on

The Wave Serpent can also have extra AT guns - Bright Lance for 5pts - S8, AP2 Lance, not that it needs it due to the cheese shield gun

Razorback in cover - is that the thing that the Serpent ignores - oh yes it is when it fires D6+1 S7 TL shots at it..........at range 60", bye bye Razorback

Pretty much this. Eldar transports are pure

Well its either serpents or bike armies. The basic troops can't survive outside of them, if they made falcons dedicated and 1 more option(assault variant), i would be happy and gladly give up my serpent shield gun. But they don't and its 1 of 2 options on how to play with troops. If the autarch could make a set of 2 slots free for aspects as troops with dedicated transports other than the falcon, take the shield away and give us our diversity.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think that in some ways the Eldar are where Necrons were in the end of 5th.

You have to deliberately limit yourself when choosing your army in order for your opponent to have fun.

It would be good if we could all turn up with armies built with units we like from our codex and have a roughly even chance of winning, but that doesn't seem to be how GW rolls.

I would agree to this if the Eldar list wasn't a good bit harder to put together than the Necron one. The cost to put together said Eldar list is astronomical compared to the list the Necrons could build and not nearly as one-sided. At least now we run into Screamerstar and it turns into a slap-fight, Necrons had no such issue due to their flyer heavy list.

Necrons are still potent. Make no mistake. To my knowledge, no one is saying they aren't. But they can not wipe my meqs off the table nearly as quickly as Eldar. Or really anyone else as well. Tyranids? Eldar lol with their armada of S6/7. Necrons start to sweat just a bit.

Early 6th ed Necrons were OP because of the general lack of AA in the meta at the time, once people started adjusting the flying circus stopped being an auto-win button.

It's still strong, though. Eldar/Tau are moving people back away from AA. At least where I play. Eldar/Tau will erase your face much faster than helldrakes.

Thats funny s 6 has nothing on necron flyers. and in my meta, semi competitive we have two tau + two eldar players, the tau players played kroot army and died horendously, just like my scorpions army...

Aren't Night Scythes AV 11? S6/7 works fine.

av 13 till you pen them

Martel732 wrote:
Aren't Night Scythes AV 11? S6/7 works fine.

When I have scythes in reserve and my opponent has a quad gun that thing usually becomes priority target No.1...

I've yet to manage to fire a death ray on the turn my doomscythe enters the game in a game where my opponent still had a quad gun up and running that turn- it always gets shot down/weapon destroyed/can only snapfire.