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Did Blackmoor just make a ton of IB checks on turn 4? Or was his synapse web larger than I thought.


So that last stealer fail a LD9 check to fall back?


Thanks for these, they are really good.

On that point i wholeheartedly agree - Synapse and Instinctive behavior is far more debilitating to the army as a whole than it ever was in the past.


It actually in a way makes genestealers better internally because they don't need synapse to function under most circumstances. However, externally genestealers are still as sub-par as they were 6 months+ ago.

coredump wrote:
Did Blackmoor just make a ton of IB checks on turn 4? Or was his synapse web larger than I thought.


So that last stealer fail a LD9 check to fall back?


Thanks for these, they are really good.

Sorry, should have clarified in my report what happened.

On Turn 4:

Hormagants - were in range of the flyrant at the beginning of the turn so they were ok.

Termagants - made their IB test.

Biovores - failed their IB test and thus fired at the closest unit, my soladin in his backfield.

Genestealer - was out of Synapse range at the beginning of the turn. Because he is less than 25% unit strength, he can only regroup on snake-eyes (1,1).


On Turn 5:

Biovores - failed IB test and get pinned.

Genestealer - regroups due to flyrant.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
On that point i wholeheartedly agree - Synapse and Instinctive behavior is far more debilitating to the army as a whole than it ever was in the past.


It actually in a way makes genestealers better internally because they don't need synapse to function under most circumstances. However, externally genestealers are still as sub-par as they were 6 months+ ago.

I can just see it:
Some guy in Games Workshop is trawling forums and seeing that people think Warriors and Genestealers are terrible and not worth fielding. GW guy goes to higher-up.

Guy: "Sir, the Tyranid players aren't happy with Genestealers and Warriors, they say they're completely outclassed by other units."

Higher-up: "Well this isn't good, we've already got a new Warrior kit in the works. Without wings, of course, we've got to make sure they buy extra Gargoyles. How do we get them to buy Stealers and Warriors?"

Guy: "We could nerf everything else, sir."

Higher-up: "That's brilliant!" [picks up the phone on his desk] "Send Cruddace in here right away, I've got a job right up his alley. And while you're at it, bring a puppy, I want to kick something." [hangs up phone] "Pour me a glass of Tyranid player tears, would you? And one for yourself, you've earned it."

I think the Tyranids would be better served by a better list... they got owned in just about every melee. TBH seemed like an easy win for the GK even though the score was fairly close... they could never drop the hammer. I think that shows us the direction that is needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the Tyranids would be better served by a better list... they got owned in just about every melee. TBH seemed like an easy win for the GK even though the score was fairly close... they could never drop the hammer. I think that shows us the direction that is needed.

"The genestealer regroups because the flyrant is nearby. However, whereas before, a unit regroups immediately when in range of synapse and can then act normally, in the new edition, I believe they regroup at the beginning of their turn and then can only consolidate 3" as with any other normal, non-ATSKNF regrouping unit. In any case, we played it the "old" way, where the unit regroups and can then do anything it wants."

I don't agree as they become Fearless... it is not the same thing as a non-Fearless unit regrouping.

I'm 99% sure there's a FAQ saying a fleeing unit that becomes fearless can complete their turn normally in every fashion.

I've said this before, but I believe mawlocs are a red herring. A really uncompetitive choice. The fact alone that they cannot effect models above ground level in ruins makes them easily outplayed. The fact that they self destruct 16% of the time while doing exactly what they're designed to do... Is laughable. Pay the extra points for an exocrine that can drop an ap2 blast every turn and will never kill itself.

Genestealers need to be 20 or nothing IMO. And even in 20's, they rarely survive with enough bodies making assault to turn the tide.

Loan zoans also rarely actually contribute. The thing is tyranids are a very soft army that doesn't hit as hard as daemons in assault or shoot as good as tau/eldar/iG/DE. Every unit that isn't contributing offensively is a tax. Playing MSU or MTO only works if each unit is a viable threat. Hiding with zoans and venoms, and reserving inaccurate mawlocs is playing with a handicap.

I think once tyranid players start recognizing this and building lists with 100% threats, we'll see better results. 5 fmc's is a start, but you need your ground units to demand attention also like exocrines, tfexes, and hive guard.

The issue with regrouping is a timing issue.

Unless Synapse says that units become Fearless and immediately regroups, you never check for regrouping until the beginning of your Movement phase.

Also, unless Synapse explicitly tells you that you can move, shoot, assault and otherwise act normally after regrouping (i.e. like ATSKNF does), the default is that you regroup, consolidate 3" and can only snap-fire.

I don't have my dex with me currently, but I am 99% sure that Synapse doesn't give you any of the exceptions that I mentioned above.


BTW, there is no more FAQ for the Tyranids. The old Tyranid FAQ is obsolete.

Good game, I'm surprised the Termagants managed to kill the henchmen and soladin given that they look so.... 'armless.

I think Blackmoor defeated himself with his list, max Troops Tyranids just don't seem to work with the new book. Every time I build a new list I find myself taking less scoring units and more threats.

Now I know the BAO FAQ may say fliers have a 180 degree arc in theory but does it supersede normal requirements? By that I mean model capability, the storm ravens turret weapon has always had a minimum firing arc due to its body. Just curious as this seems like a sketchy FAQ ruling if so. I mean it has a hull mounted MM in its nose, hull weapons have a 45 arc up and down as well which would limit their use even if the model is allowed a 180 LOS. Very silly ruling IMO, just seems to open up just as many problems as it attempts to solve.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

Loan zoans also rarely actually contribute. The thing is tyranids are a very soft army that doesn't hit as hard as daemons in assault or shoot as good as tau/eldar/iG/DE. Every unit that isn't contributing offensively is a tax. Playing MSU or MTO only works if each unit is a viable threat. Hiding with zoans and venoms, and reserving inaccurate mawlocs is playing with a handicap.

I think once tyranid players start recognizing this and building lists with 100% threats, we'll see better results. 5 fmc's is a start, but you need your ground units to demand attention also like exocrines, tfexes, and hive guard.

The problem with Tyranids is that they can never go with 100% threats and still have a viable TAC army. That is because of the Synapse "tax" inherent to the army. Moreover, you never really want to go 100% anyways because then you will be lacking in your force-multiplier support units. The army is like a bell curve with threats at about 70% as probably the optimal efficiency level. If you go beyond that, you start to kill off some of the synergies of the army in terms of adequate, non-sacrificial scoring units, synapse coverage and psychic force-multipliers. I don't really believe in excess upgrades and wargears, but I do believe you need a foundation of support units to complement your high-octane Tyranid offense. And in a way, sometimes these support units are an even bigger threat to the enemy than the actual offensive units themselves. If I go up against bugs, my target priority is the flyrant. After that, it is actually the support units - the zoanthropes, the venomthropes and probably the tervigon if I feel that I can take it out.

 jy2 wrote:
The issue with regrouping is a timing issue.

Unless Synapse says that units become Fearless and immediately regroups, you never check for regrouping until the beginning of your Movement phase.

Also, unless Synapse explicitly tells you that you can move, shoot, assault and otherwise act normally after regrouping (i.e. like ATSKNF does), the default is that you regroup, consolidate 3" and can only snap-fire.

I don't have my dex with me currently, but I am 99% sure that Synapse doesn't give you any of the exceptions that I mentioned above.


BTW, there is no more FAQ for the Tyranids. The old Tyranid FAQ is obsolete.

The problem is they aren't regrouping as per the rule. They are becoming fearless which is different. I'd argue they don't even consolidate. I don't have my book with me however but this is based off what has been said here.

 jy2 wrote:
The issue with regrouping is a timing issue.

Unless Synapse says that units become Fearless and immediately regroups, you never check for regrouping until the beginning of your Movement phase.

Also, unless Synapse explicitly tells you that you can move, shoot, assault and otherwise act normally after regrouping (i.e. like ATSKNF does), the default is that you regroup, consolidate 3" and can only snap-fire.

I don't have my dex with me currently, but I am 99% sure that Synapse doesn't give you any of the exceptions that I mentioned above.


BTW, there is no more FAQ for the Tyranids. The old Tyranid FAQ is obsolete.

Regrouping is done before the fleeing unit moves, not the beginning of the movement phase (p31). Therefore you can fly a flyrant over and rally the unit who can then move shoot and assault.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the Tyranids would be better served by a better list... they got owned in just about every melee. TBH seemed like an easy win for the GK even though the score was fairly close... they could never drop the hammer. I think that shows us the direction that is needed.

Blackmoor is making some changes to his LVO bugs list after these test games against Reece and I.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Good game, I'm surprised the Termagants managed to kill the henchmen and soladin given that they look so.... 'armless.

I think Blackmoor defeated himself with his list, max Troops Tyranids just don't seem to work with the new book. Every time I build a new list I find myself taking less scoring units and more threats.

Lol. They shot like a boss that turn. I believe those BS3 shooters hit like 4-5 times!

He is going more with a horde build, at least in his early playtesting of the bugs. He will be changing his list. Personally, 3 is all you really need if you include a tervigon (and a bastion ) into your army. That's the foundation for my army at least - tervgion, 30x termagants and 10x termagants.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Now I know the BAO FAQ may say fliers have a 180 degree arc in theory but does it supersede normal requirements? By that I mean model capability, the storm ravens turret weapon has always had a minimum firing arc due to its body. Just curious as this seems like a sketchy FAQ ruling if so. I mean it has a hull mounted MM in its nose, hull weapons have a 45 arc up and down as well which would limit their use even if the model is allowed a 180 LOS. Very silly ruling IMO, just seems to open up just as many problems as it attempts to solve.

Yeah, it's kind of a hokey ruling but it's been there ever since last year, when my tyranids had to deal with that type of shenanigans (played against 3 stormravens, 3 vendettas, 2 heldrakes and a couple of night scythes) at the BAO.

BTW, my raven was actually slightly back (maybe by about 1") but because of wobbly model syndrome, I actually placed it forwards to make it more stable.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
The issue with regrouping is a timing issue.

Unless Synapse says that units become Fearless and immediately regroups, you never check for regrouping until the beginning of your Movement phase.

Also, unless Synapse explicitly tells you that you can move, shoot, assault and otherwise act normally after regrouping (i.e. like ATSKNF does), the default is that you regroup, consolidate 3" and can only snap-fire.

I don't have my dex with me currently, but I am 99% sure that Synapse doesn't give you any of the exceptions that I mentioned above.


BTW, there is no more FAQ for the Tyranids. The old Tyranid FAQ is obsolete.

Regrouping is done before the fleeing unit moves, not the beginning of the movement phase (p31). Therefore you can fly a flyrant over and rally the unit who can then move shoot and assault.

When you regroup, you can only consolidate and snap-shot unless you have a special rule that tells you you can do more than that.

I am wondering where it says it would be considered regrouping? Again don't have my rules, but I imagine becoming fearless may not be the same. If so then I'd say no consolidation but able to act normal.


Edit: Yea that is a strange ruling. Seems like one step forward two back. But hey if that's the way they play it game on.

I'll double-check the rules when I get back tonight.

 jy2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Good game, I'm surprised the Termagants managed to kill the henchmen and soladin given that they look so.... 'armless.

I think Blackmoor defeated himself with his list, max Troops Tyranids just don't seem to work with the new book. Every time I build a new list I find myself taking less scoring units and more threats.

Lol. They shot like a boss that turn. I believe those BS3 shooters hit like 4-5 times!

He is going more with a horde build, at least in his early playtesting of the bugs. He will be changing his list. Personally, 3 is all you really need if you include a tervigon (and a bastion ) into your army. That's the foundation for my army at least - tervgion, 30x termagants and 10x termagants.

That's exactly what I run for my troops most games, though sometimes those 10 Termagants become 20 with devourers and outflank, I'm having a lot of success with that tactic.

As far as Synapse and regrouping goes, the unit automatically regroups if you get them in Synapse range before their movement, and they still suffer the normal effects of regrouping.

Flyers getting 180 degree firing arcs? Now that's just stupidly powerful.

Loved the finished report, was a lot closer than I expected.

The only thing about fearless and regrouping is if a non-fearless unit has gone to ground and becomes fearless it can immediately resume acting as normal.

The Tyranid codex states that if they are in synapse before movement they automatically regroup.

So, if you move a synapse creature to them AFTER they move, they simply stop falling back and act normally (As fearless models cannot fall back, and you haven't been given permission to regroup as described in the brb, so you simply stop falling back and act as normal, which is described in the GTG->fearless FAQ). If you move a synapse creature to them BEFORE they move, they just regroup (And thus can only snap fire).

Nice batrep thanks for sharing it. Good luck at the LVO to both of you.

jy2 Fearless units don't have to regroup and this occurs at the beginning of the turn... Give the Nidz a break.

I agree with a lot of what you and H3vymynd had to say... That's a lot of Tyranid experience ! I think you are right about Raveners too as you've said else where. Their speed is so good. Probably one Tervigon is the way to go too for your backfield. I think your mto concept is the way to go with Tyranids... Play to their raw base strengths ! Run and hide has been proven not to work.

Great report Jim I knew you would win! I've been noticing that Blackmoor doesn't have a very good success rate in a lot of these batreps that you and Reece post so that's why I went with you winning this one.

The issue with Falling Back and Synapse is clarified in the Tyranid book. "If a unit from codex:Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit's models is within a friendly Synapse Ctreature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups.(pg. 38)" Thus, moving a fleeing unit into Synapse makes them automatically Regroup, subject to all the penalties as if they regrouped naturally.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the Tyranids would be better served by a better list... they got owned in just about every melee. TBH seemed like an easy win for the GK even though the score was fairly close... they could never drop the hammer. I think that shows us the direction that is needed..

I was never going to beat Paladins in melee. They crush big bugs and little bugs.

I addressed the list issue in Reese's batrep (this was played on the same day) and that this was mostly the models that I had laying around and and only proxied the Mawlocs. My LVO list is very different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 y0disisray wrote:
Great report Jim I knew you would win! I've been noticing that Blackmoor doesn't have a very good success rate in a lot of these batreps that you and Reece post so that's why I went with you winning this one.

lol I am still new to this game and just getting the hang of it!

Can't wait to see your new list !

"If a unit from codex tyranids is falling back and at least one of the units models is within a friendly synapse creatures synapse range before the unit moves the unit automatically regroups." Tyranids codex pp38.

If I'm falling back on the enemy turn and enter synapse, the auto regroup happens then and the ensuing tyranid movement is unhindered. If the falling back unit is on the tyranid turn, a synapse creature needs to move within range before they activate or they'll continue falling back.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
"If a unit from codex tyranids is falling back and at least one of the units models is within a friendly synapse creatures synapse range before the unit moves the unit automatically regroups." Tyranids codex pp38.

If I'm falling back on the enemy turn and enter synapse, the auto regroup happens then and the ensuing tyranid movement is unhindered. If the falling back unit is on the tyranid turn, a synapse creature needs to move within range before they activate or they'll continue falling back.

I don't think this is the case. "Once a unit has regrouped, it cannot otherwise move (so cannot Run....). However it can shoot..." pg. 31. Regrouping is resolved at the beginning of your turn, not your opponents, and therefore they suffer the consequences of a successful Regroup.

Regrouping automatically is a special stipulation that occurs due to the synapse rule. This is why it can occur out of sequence. You are correct however that if the regrouping occurs in the tyranid turn the unit cannot move further.

But nothing in the rules says that "automatic regrouping' is different than normal regrouping. I disagree with you. I guess we have to wait till there is an FAQ.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Flyers getting 180 degree firing arcs? Now that's just stupidly powerful.

The reason for that is more logistical and pragmatism than it is anything else. What Reece told me is that the majority of the rules complaints that they've been having at the tournaments throughout the years is regarding flyers and LOS. It just took up too much of their time having to deal with the same issue over and over again. So in order to keep their tournaments running more smoothly and to avoid delays, that is why they made their ruling as such.

 RiTides wrote:
Loved the finished report, was a lot closer than I expected.

Thanks! I knew it wouldn't be a blowout. These matchups usually tend to be close. Paladins aren't really known for blowing out their opponents, especially those with fast units that can easily get out of harm's way. It was kind of like that the last time I played my bugs against Blackmoor's Draigowing as well.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
The only thing about fearless and regrouping is if a non-fearless unit has gone to ground and becomes fearless it can immediately resume acting as normal.

The Tyranid codex states that if they are in synapse before movement they automatically regroup.

So, if you move a synapse creature to them AFTER they move, they simply stop falling back and act normally (As fearless models cannot fall back, and you haven't been given permission to regroup as described in the brb, so you simply stop falling back and act as normal, which is described in the GTG->fearless FAQ). If you move a synapse creature to them BEFORE they move, they just regroup (And thus can only snap fire).

Wonder why GW just doesn't simplify stuff like they did with ATSKNF. Sigh....

Anyways, I haven't been able to check the BRB yet. Will do so later when I get home.

 ansacs wrote:
Nice batrep thanks for sharing it. Good luck at the LVO to both of you.

Thanks. We are both going there with different purposes. Blackmoor is there to just have fun and to try out the new bugs. I will be there to try to make it to the Championship round. That's the top 8 undefeated players (from a crowd of 220+ players) duking it out for all the marbles on Day #3.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
jy2 Fearless units don't have to regroup and this occurs at the beginning of the turn... Give the Nidz a break.

I agree with a lot of what you and H3vymynd had to say... That's a lot of Tyranid experience ! I think you are right about Raveners too as you've said else where. Their speed is so good. Probably one Tervigon is the way to go too for your backfield. I think your mto concept is the way to go with Tyranids... Play to their raw base strengths ! Run and hide has been proven not to work.

Raveners are good, but so are most of the tyranid FA as well. Harpies, hive crones, raveners, gargoyles....all can be very good in the right situation. Even the often-overlooked shrikes can do well here as well. But the main reason why I like the FA units better than the very stacked Heavy supports is because of the speed. MTO builds need speed so it's either fill out the Fast Attacks or add deepstriking trygons/mawlocs. Fortunately for us, tyranid units are cheap enough that you can actually fill out both the FA and Heavy's at 1750!

 y0disisray wrote:
Great report Jim I knew you would win! I've been noticing that Blackmoor doesn't have a very good success rate in a lot of these batreps that you and Reece post so that's why I went with you winning this one.

To be fair, Blackmoor was playing with a number of disadvantages. He was playing while fatigued. He was playing with relatively very little Tyranid experience (hadn't played bugs since 4th Ed.). He was playing with just the models that he had. And lastly, he was playing against me. Haha....j.k.!

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the Tyranids would be better served by a better list... they got owned in just about every melee. TBH seemed like an easy win for the GK even though the score was fairly close... they could never drop the hammer. I think that shows us the direction that is needed..

I was never going to beat Paladins in melee. They crush big bugs and little bugs.

I addressed the list issue in Reese's batrep (this was played on the same day) and that this was mostly the models that I had laying around and and only proxied the Mawlocs. My LVO list is very different.

The first time I brought my bugs against Allan's Draigowing, I tried to take out his paladinstar with 3 TMC's, 2 of which had Iron Arm. That didn't turn out very well for me.

The 2nd time I went up against Allan's Draigowing, I didn't even try taking them head-on. It was just a game of trying to slow them down while running away with the Relic.

Ironically, the 2 times I wend up against Janthkin's tyranids, he actually wiped out my Paladinstar both times! Then again, he runs a very scary cc-list with the Swarmlord, ymgarls, gargoyles and 20 toxic genestealers!

The rule I quoted mentions the timing - "when a unit enters synapse". I personally read that as "immediately". It's ok if you disagree.