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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 00:16:42
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Hellish Haemonculus
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So, this seems to be an issue that there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on.
The issue seems to be this rule.
BRB wrote:p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature
p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)
One side claims that if a FMC is declared to be arriving from Reserve in Glide mode, then it may indeed Deep Strike, since Jump Monstrous Creatures may deploy via Deep Strike.
The opposing side claims that the above rules only grant the FMCs the special rules of Jump units after they've selected a movement mode. In game, prior to deployment, they have not moved, and thus are not 'moving like' Jump units, and therefore may not claim the benefits of being a Jump unit (namely, the Deep Strike special rule.)
What do you think?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/29 03:23:10
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 00:19:56
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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No where does it say FMCs deploys like a Jump Monstrous Creature
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 00:21:01
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Jimsolo wrote:
The opposing side claims that the above rule dictates how FMCs may move, not how they may deploy.
I would rephrase this as, ".. dictates how FMCs may move, but does not automatically grant them the Deep Strike USR."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 00:21:55
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I vote no because deepstriking is moving, running, or charging. It is deployment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 00:22:17
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought
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Like many things in 40k I think this is unclear... in the "jump" rules it mentions wings, but it's never directly stated that WMC's can do this...
I feel strongly that they are intended to deep-strike, and I would allow my opponent to do so... but I can see this being an issue.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 00:24:55
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Gunzhard wrote:Like many things in 40k I think this is unclear... in the "jump" rules it mentions wings, but it's never directly stated that WMC's can do this...
I feel strongly that they are intended to deep-strike, and I would allow my opponent to do so... but I can see this being an issue.
I'm actually not quite so sure on the intent here. They basically removed the capacity of Flyers to Deep Strike across the board (is there a single new Flyer in the updated rules that can Deep Strike?), making it seem like they intend the same for FMC's. This is one of those rules where I would like for FMC's to be able to Deep Strike (cause it would help my Nids), but don't actually think the rules support this interpretation at all.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 00:25:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 00:25:25
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Hellish Haemonculus
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rollawaythestone wrote: Jimsolo wrote:
The opposing side claims that the above rule dictates how FMCs may move, not how they may deploy.
I would rephrase this as, ".. dictates how FMCs may move, but does not automatically grant them the Deep Strike USR."
Done!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 00:33:10
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought
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rollawaythestone wrote: Gunzhard wrote:Like many things in 40k I think this is unclear... in the "jump" rules it mentions wings, but it's never directly stated that WMC's can do this...
I feel strongly that they are intended to deep-strike, and I would allow my opponent to do so... but I can see this being an issue.
I'm actually not quite so sure on the intent here. They basically removed the capacity of Flyers to Deep Strike across the board (is there a single new Flyer in the updated rules that can Deep Strike?), making it seem like they intend the same for FMC's. This is one of those rules where I would like for FMC's to be able to Deep Strike (cause it would help my Nids), but don't actually think the rules support this interpretation at all.
Hmm yeah that is a good point about the Flyers... my Blood Angel's StormRaven lost DS, and the FAQ gave winged-monstrous-creatures 'skyfire' bringing them another step closer to flyers. Well given that point I think you are right - but since they have 'wings' and it is still unclear, I would allow my opponent to DS in this situation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 02:56:26
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Three rules to keep in mind:
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature
p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)
So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 03:09:31
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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^ With that, I'm changing my vote to yes.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 03:38:55
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
Wainwright, AB
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If a flyer cant DS, then a FMC can't DS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 03:42:32
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought
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It does seem like they are very much trying to connect these two units - but at this time there is nothing that would make your statement true.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 03:54:04
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Does that same logic work with grounding tests? Please?
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 03:55:36
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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If a Flying Monstrous Creature is in neither Swoop nor Glide mode, how does it move?
Does it move like a Jump Monstrous Creature? What rule says this?
The times that flight mode are chosen are:
1). When it moves,
2). When it deploys,
3). When it enters play from Reserve.
These are the only times the FMC rules allow you to declare a flight mode.
And not one of these times would allow you to Deep Strike. It's very much a timing issue.
Until one of those 3 condisions are met, there is nothing allowing the FMC to work like a JMC.
So when it comes to putting it into Deep Strike reserve, it is not moving like a JMC, or has any rule allowing a Deep Strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 04:00:23
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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Lets not forget the BRB FAQ:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes
How it gets to deep strike is beyond me. I don't see the deep strike rule listed under FMC, so they don't get deep strike in my book. Moving like and Being are two different things
Nevermind. I want to change my vote to yes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 05:05:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 04:01:20
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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Only thing that I can see is that on pg. 49 Deepstrike is not noted as one of the special rules available to a FMC.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 04:04:23
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Chaos Daemon FMC's have the rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 04:05:14
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature
p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)
So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.
This deserves a re-post, since people seem to not be reading it.... Look at his third point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 04:08:58
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Elric Greywolf wrote:coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature
p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)
So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.
This deserves a re-post, since people seem to not be reading it.... Look at his third point.
Problem is, it can't claim to be Swooping or Gliding until:
1). It moves
2). It deploys
3). Arrives from reserve.
Until one of those 3 conditions are met, it's neither Swooping nor Gliding.
So is not moving like a JMC, nor can it use any of those rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 05:18:58
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Mulletdude wrote:Lets not forget the BRB FAQ:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes
How it gets to deep strike is beyond me. I don't see the deep strike rule listed under FMC, so they don't get deep strike in my book. Moving like and Being are two different things
Nevermind. I want to change my vote to yes.
coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature
p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)
So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.
It appears to not need a poll... it just is a yes
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 05:31:52
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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You mean no surely?
In light of this evidence:
grendel083 wrote:Problem is, it can't claim to be Swooping or Gliding until:
1). It moves
2). It deploys
3). Arrives from reserve.
Until one of those 3 conditions are met, it's neither Swooping nor Gliding.
So is not moving like a JMC, nor can it use any of those rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 05:44:09
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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So it always moves like a jump MC, surely that fits the requirements of "moving like a Jump unit"?
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 05:55:54
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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PrinceRaven wrote:
Does that same logic work with grounding tests? Please?
Seconded!!! Yes, please this!
grendel083 wrote: Elric Greywolf wrote:coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature
p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)
So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.
This deserves a re-post, since people seem to not be reading it.... Look at his third point.
Problem is, it can't claim to be Swooping or Gliding until:
1). It moves
2). It deploys
3). Arrives from reserve.
Until one of those 3 conditions are met, it's neither Swooping nor Gliding.
So is not moving like a JMC, nor can it use any of those rules.
It's Schrodinger's Tyrant?
Seriously though, the rule does not state that it must currently be moving like jump infantry. It states that it must be described as moving like jump infantry. The FMC entry does indeed contain such a description and therefore it gains the SR weather or not it is currently swooping or gliding.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/28 05:57:42
-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 07:49:42
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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The problem that you run into is the timing as mentioned.
The FMC entry is crystal clear on saying that it moves exactly like Jump Monstrous Creature, but places a condition on that by startimg the sentence with a "If". That means ONLY if the FMC is gliding/swooping does it then move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. Which in turn means ONLY if they are moving exactly like Jump Monstrous Creaturme does it have the Deep Strike USR.
Now as Grendel simplified it, you do not place a gliding or swooping FMC into reserves. You dont make the flight mode decision until after it arrives from reserves which by then is too late to have the USR.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 10:03:31
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
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I think grendel stated it the best.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 10:14:24
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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The requirement is only that it is described as moving like a jump unit, it is not required to actually be doing so.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 10:21:42
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Douglas Bader
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Mulletdude wrote:Lets not forget the BRB FAQ:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes
This doesn't actually prove anything since you can have an individual FMC with the Deep Strike USR even if FMCs in general can't deep strike.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 10:21:49
Subject: Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Terrifying Treeman
The Fallen Realm of Umbar
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From the other thread
Krellnus wrote:Going off memory here, you cannot declare a FMC to be swooping or gliding before or during deployment, combine this with the fact that, iirc, if you put a unit in reserve, you must declare how its arriving, whether that be walking on, outflank or deep striking.
Sinc FMCs do not have deep strike at deployment, they cannot chose to arrive by deep strike from reserves and thus must walk on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 12:02:52
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Hmm after voting i realised this is one of those cases where both sides have rules quotes that totally prove their point. I voted "No" but would now like to change that to a "Maybe"
If that ever comes up in a game i'll let my opponent do it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/28 14:54:52
Subject: Re:Can Flying Monstrous Creatures Deep Strike? (Poll edition!)
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
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I answered Maybe, as the FMC needs to have the special rule Deepstrike, whether by part of the Daemonic Instability rule or otherwise. I don't think 'moving as' Jump Infantry gives them the Jump Infantry deepstriking ability , though I could totally see how it could be FAQd the other way.
But coming in Swooping from the board edge is still pretty good, not sure why anyone would come in Gliding since they can't assault upon arrival.
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