New Dwarf Hype

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**Micky**

Re: castling... There's a few dwarf players locally who love the trend of 1500-1800pt tournaments that we have going lately, because they feel like they can bring non-shooty lists and actually have fun and be competitive.

**Rommel44**

thedarkavenger wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
thedarkavenger wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Look. It is fine if he believes playing against Dwarfs or playing Dwarfs is not interesting, tedious, predictable, whatever. But making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous. The forums here and everywhere else are a very small percentage of the population of people that play these games. And out of all of the people that come on to these forums, even a smaller portion of those ever bother to even post anything.

I can speak for the majority of the ENTIRE UK TOURNAMENT SCENE, when I say that Dwarves are not fun to play.

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement. Care to back it up with concrete proof that you speak for the majority? Also, as others have said, who cares about tournament scenes. Tournaments do not make up the majority of Warhammer players. GW has even said this. They make their money off of the guy playing in his basement with his mates, not the tournament crowd. The tournament crowd only buys what they think is most powerful and skip everything else. GW would never make much money if they only sold to the tournament crowd.

Also, think about WHY you think they are boring. could it be because everybody brings the exact same list to every tournament in your area? I do admit that it would get boring to play against the exact same list every time you played but that is not the case for all dwarf players everywhere. I've seen quite a few players in quite a few stores that have ditched the castling up dwarfs and gone for more themed lists with slayers or miners or the Dwarf Ambush lists. I've seen lists with 3 gyrocopters and bolt throwers and no cannons. I've seen Ironbreaker heavy lists and rangers. I've seen strollaz lists with dwarfs moving more quick than you think they should. I've seen them in all kinds of ways. None of that has been boring as it is exciting to see what kind of tricks the Dwarfs try to pull off.

When you take out the tournament mentality of playing Warhammer, the enjoyment level for a lot of the people I have talked with has gone up when playing or playing against Dwarfs. Because the Dwarfs don't have to rely on just the gunline. It opens up whole new possibilities with playing them.

You guys have to remember, the tournament scene does not own warhammer. They do not get to say what is fun and what isn't fun. They have no authority over anyone but the people who go to the tournaments. So maybe dwarfs are boring for you guys because you only see one list. But for those of us who don't always see just the gunline, they are fun.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
making the claim that the majority of the people that play dwarfs or against them feel that way is ridiculous.
As ridiculous as stating otherwise, no?

No, because I make no claim to know what everyone thinks. I make no claim saying that everybody thinks they are boring to play or play against.

I didn't make the claim that everyone thinks they are boring, nor did I make the claim that everyone thinks they are fun. I did say the tournament scene thinks they are boring because all they ever see is a gunline castle army. But others see much more. so it would be valid to say some people think they are boring and some don't, which is all I have ever said about it when you read back through my posts.

I can back that up by seeing most competitive UK players say that they hate dwarves. It's a pretty common opinion over here that you should only play dwarves once per event. As for the money making, in the UK at least, the competitive scene outweighs the fluff scene. As demonstrated by the amount and the size of the tournaments here. ((SCGT being almost 200 players last year.))

As for your points about tournament lists being the same, that is true. But as someone who played dwarves regularly for a period of 8 months outside of tournaments in my local club. I'm saying now. The book is stale, rigid and deeply flawed. You say dwarves have choice. They can choose between hitty troop A, and hitty troop B. Troop B can shoot you. There you have your choice. So I say again. The variety in the dwarf book is lacking at best. This results in the majority of dwarf lists being the one list that works.

And yes. The tournament scene doesn't say what is and isn't fun. Players do. And I've not encountered a single player in my entire experience playing warhammer (Since '07) who has said they enjoy playing dwarves.

Honestly in my opinion from what I have seen most people hate playing Dwarfs as they are forced to change there game-plan in order to fight them, as the Dwarfs in general are an army that gets people frustrated to play against. That seems to be the main reason in my opinion, as with the Dwarfs strong shooting phase and there ability to negate the magic phase, opponents struggle against them and that Dwarfs in Tournaments especially have the ability to make an opponent change everything in order to fight them, as most people have a tendency to go Magic Heavy or have to get into CC to have a chance to win, both which favors the Dwarfs in most games. Plus, with a hight toughness and good army save across the board, they can be extremely tough to fight against, which is why so many people hate fighting them. Personally I like that kind of Army, and I am excited that the Dwarfs are finally getting a new book so I bring back the good old days of making people frustrated

.

**snurl**

If only Slayers could skirmish.

**Purifier**

Rommel44 wrote:

Honestly in my opinion from what I have seen most people hate playing Dwarfs as they are forced to change there game-plan in order to fight them, as the Dwarfs in general are an army that gets people frustrated to play against.

Wayyyy off the mark. In 40k Tau aren't fun to play against because you are not allowed to actually play while facing them. The first few rounds is just the Tau player shooting and you seeing if you'll have enough people still alive at the end to take him in close combat. It's not fun spending 2 hours moving things around as they dwindle and then in the end finding out that, no. A fourth of an army can't take on a full army. Game is over, I hope you had fun, I didn't. I moved things for 2 hours. No fighting, no nothing.

Rommel44 wrote:
I bring back the good old days of making people frustrated .

And this is why you think it's fun. Me, I like to play the game WITH my opponent, not in order to try and get under his skin. I like friendly games, you want to destroy the other person's day. To each his own.

**adicto20**

Judging from what I've read so far, new Dwarfs will be just like old dwarfs, but with magic, 33% chance of army-wide hatred, +1str on the charge, and way better armour saves.

That's bad news for everyone.

**Makumba**

Man I hope we get some nice M buffs , else that +1str on charge won't see much use . Maybe leaping slayers charging like cavalery , although without armor I don't think many would make it in to combat.

**Formosa**

Purifier wrote:
Rommel44 wrote:

Honestly in my opinion from what I have seen most people hate playing Dwarfs as they are forced to change there game-plan in order to fight them, as the Dwarfs in general are an army that gets people frustrated to play against.

Wayyyy off the mark. In 40k Tau aren't fun to play against because you are not allowed to actually play while facing them. The first few rounds is just the Tau player shooting and you seeing if you'll have enough people still alive at the end to take him in close combat. It's not fun spending 2 hours moving things around as they dwindle and then in the end finding out that, no. A fourth of an army can't take on a full army. Game is over, I hope you had fun, I didn't. I moved things for 2 hours. No fighting, no nothing.

Rommel44 wrote:
I bring back the good old days of making people frustrated .

And this is why you think it's fun. Me, I like to play the game WITH my opponent, not in order to try and get under his skin. I like friendly games, you want to destroy the other person's day. To each his own.

Hahahhahahahahhahahagagagagagagsgsh.... Cough cough...hahahahahahahahaha... Breathe... Dwarves are like tau.. My god I haven't had a laugh like that for a while.

Ok rudeness aside, your talking nonsense, we neither have even remotely the firepower or the massive range tau have, nor the ability to up our bs etc, so your idea that we could destroy your army enough leave only a few models is tosh pure and simple.

Rommel is correct 10000000000% in my experience and I even said pretty much the same earlier, tourny players don't like dwarfs because we throw a (dwarf) spanner in there cookie cutter waac netlists (yay 3 stereotypes there, prize?), normal players (80% + I'd guess) don't have an issue

**scarletsquig**

Dwarves are an excellent army to screw with tournament game metas.

Relying on magic spamtricks to win? Not this game!

**snurl**

Wait until you see the new CHIBIhawk gyrocopters.

**Purifier**

Formosa wrote:
Purifier wrote:
Rommel44 wrote:

Honestly in my opinion from what I have seen most people hate playing Dwarfs as they are forced to change there game-plan in order to fight them, as the Dwarfs in general are an army that gets people frustrated to play against.

Wayyyy off the mark. In 40k Tau aren't fun to play against because you are not allowed to actually play while facing them. The first few rounds is just the Tau player shooting and you seeing if you'll have enough people still alive at the end to take him in close combat. It's not fun spending 2 hours moving things around as they dwindle and then in the end finding out that, no. A fourth of an army can't take on a full army. Game is over, I hope you had fun, I didn't. I moved things for 2 hours. No fighting, no nothing.

Rommel44 wrote:
I bring back the good old days of making people frustrated .

And this is why you think it's fun. Me, I like to play the game WITH my opponent, not in order to try and get under his skin. I like friendly games, you want to destroy the other person's day. To each his own.

Hahahhahahahahhahahagagagagagagsgsh.... Cough cough...hahahahahahahahaha... Breathe... Dwarves are like tau.. My god I haven't had a laugh like that for a while.

Ok rudeness aside, your talking nonsense, we neither have even remotely the firepower or the massive range tau have, nor the ability to up our bs etc, so your idea that we could destroy your army enough leave only a few models is tosh pure and simple.

Rommel is correct 10000000000% in my experience and I even said pretty much the same earlier, tourny players don't like dwarfs because we throw a (dwarf) spanner in there cookie cutter waac netlists (yay 3 stereotypes there, prize?), normal players (80% + I'd guess) don't have an issue

I wasn't saying they were. I was giving it as an example. And I know from experience that Tau players have absolutely no idea why people hate Tau until they've tried flipping the table. I have a friend that is a very good player, but he only played Tau and he kept giving us all these reasons I see on the forums as well, where it's all just "well just adapt to it."

Once he started playing a nurgle Chaos Marines army, he saw things he hadn't on why it's not fun. It's not about not being able to adapt or having no chance. It's -just not fun-.

And saying "oh, it's just because we're so different and you're too stupid to adapt to it" is just nonsense.

**thedarkavenger**

scarletsquig wrote:
Dwarves are an excellent army to screw with tournament game metas.

Relying on magic spamtricks to win? Not this game!

I'm sorry. I didn't realise that dwarves didn't spam anything.

**Formosa**

Saying just adapt is not nonsense, saying we must play fantasy your way is though, but I do understand that adapting may not be always possible but trying to force dwarfs to adapt is just as bad

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like I said before it can be quite devastating having my magic shut down when playing vamps or being shot up playing chaos, but they are weaknesses in those armies for a reason and you can't blame dwarfs for being good at exploiting them, for example if I get put maneuvered by skaven and they roll up my flank, does that make skaven boring to play because there fast?

**DukeRustfield**

There's a difference between maneuver, and lol. And I tried to point out that distinction in the beginning.

If you roll all bad, you're going to lose. If you get out-maneuvered, you're going to lose. If you don't have a chance to play, people get upset.

People get upset at mega spells because the enemy boxcars them AND THEY CAN'T STOP IT. A unit is wiped-out to a sizeable degree. They weren't out-maneuvered. The enemy said lol and threw a million dice. Even if you burnt one scroll, they do it next round.

If every army had an anti-anti-magic, where they could, I don't know, buy a 100pt item and make it so Dwarfs can't dispel anything ever in the game, Dwarf players would hate it too. Because they would be stopped from their game. Not via skill. Or even luck.

Another example, there's a million threads on cannons being OP. One big reason is because you simply can't take monsters or mounted heroes. They have no chance. The game people want to play is simply impossible because of the mere existence of those weapons.

**Formosa**

Ah now if we are talking cannons then we have an accord! Cannons are bloody op and dwarfs are the best by a country mile, I hate that I can't take alot of monsters through fear of the empire gunline or the dwarf cannon, now that being said 1 cannon a gunline doesn't make, as I and others have said your issue is NOT with dwarfs it's with tournys and there players forcing you to take a step back and go "this sucks I can't do crap" I'd love to play several people on here and show them the other dwarf lists, I used to deal with teclis lists by having scout rangers with a dwarf Lord and the rune of challenge, a standard close to them to them to strollaz up and 1st turn I would move up to the nose of teclis and his unit 30 axes come at them, next turn I go master rune of challenge and good old teclis has an issue, charge me and die, or flee off the board, how is that boring?.... Stupid teclis

**DukeRustfield**

No one cares you came up with a list that 99% of Dwarf players don't use. Get over it that people aren't using the Formosa List. It's not happening. Nowhere in the world is it the most common list for Dwarfs. I'm not sure how this is difficult for you to understand.

Somewhere in the world all the players might stand on their heads and march their units backwards into combat. But, it's enough people to ever make a meta or to be debated by on a forum.

You just said Dwarfs are best at cannons and cannons are OP. So do you think Dwarf players are going to be marching backwards, using mass rangers, or using the most OP unit that they are best at? It's pretty simple.

**Formosa**

No Duke its not, lets throw your logic back at you, whats the minority? answer Tourny players, whats the majority, players who do not actually post on these forums, now if we go by what you said then it is in fact YOUR list no one cares about, most of the dwarf armies i have seen run 1/2 cannons and a stone thrower, then lots and lots of warriors and longbeards, if we go with the tiny tiny amount of people you represent then yes you get 3 cannons, 3 grudge throwers, 2 organ guns and thunderer core backed by lots of anti magic, so back at you duke, how do you not get no one cares about your tournament, how do you not get it that hardly anyone wants to play 10000000000 guns and quite happily run the aformentioned ambush list or the strollaz list i use and described, hell we havent even touched on the anvil of doom lists yet.

You like I cannot comment on the " most common list for Dwarfs" all we can do is comment on the lists we have seen and here thats not the ultra gunline you think it is, you the tourny gamer mean less than nothing to GW, its me and my mates playing in our little club and not power gaming or attempting to make a tourny out of a mess of a game that they are aiming at.. infact thats not true either, its the little kid that buys whatever looks cool, so by that logic the most common dwarf army is probably some mish mash of units that are all over the place.. but you the hobby police have decided that is "Boring" so who am I to argue with that?

**fidel**

Stop.... feeding.... the trolll.

Go back to talking about whether the Dwarfs are being hyped up before a mod locks this - or bans the troll - either or.

**Formosa**

sorry Fidel your right, Back on topic, anyone else loving the new gyrobomber and copter? I also like the new runelord, not as much detail as i would have liked but most definately dwarfy

**Madmatt**

I too thought the runelord was a little 'basic' in detail. the engineer i quite like the look of. Some of the special rules really look quite interesting as well and the stacking of runes sounds like an awesome idea.
Can't wait for the Army book. sounds like a lot of new options are available to make interesting themed lists.

**DukeRustfield**

Formosa wrote:
You like I cannot comment on the " most common list for Dwarfs" all we can do is comment on the lists we have seen

Are you familiar with games? At all? Anyone who has played a game ever knows you will see armies that are composed of better units when players are given the option. It has happened in every edition of every game that ever existed.

-What was more common in 7th DoC, plaguebearers or Bloodletters?
-What was more common in 7th WoC, Marauders or...anything?
-Doc 7th Flamers or Doc 8th anything except Flamers?
-HE 7th Teclis or generic Lord caster in 8th?
-7th Giants or 8th non-Giants?

There's a ton. Did the meta magically change because people suddenly got bored of sculpts and strategies or was it because they gravitated to the most OP and advantageous set of units? For someone who has been gaming in one form or another for over three decades I can say with 100% certainty it is the latter.

This isn't just game theory, it's basic economics. If people have the option of buying a car that is exactly identical in every way to another car except it gets double the MPG, they are going to choose it. Dwarfen strengths aren't their ability to field so-so infantry. It's their ability to shut down magic and field a battlefield full of war machines. Things that no other army can do as well.

This isn't opinion, that's just the way the game is. Denying it is absurd because the numbers are printed right there.

**Makumba**

thedarkavenger wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:
Dwarves are an excellent army to screw with tournament game metas.

Relying on magic spamtricks to win? Not this game!

I'm sorry. I didn't realise that dwarves didn't spam anything.

That is not what he said . Dwarfs don't spam magic , mostly because they don't have mages and there is one anvil .

**thedarkavenger**

Makumba wrote:
thedarkavenger wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:
Dwarves are an excellent army to screw with tournament game metas.

Relying on magic spamtricks to win? Not this game!

I'm sorry. I didn't realise that dwarves didn't spam anything.

That is not what he said . Dwarfs don't spam magic , mostly because they don't have mages and there is one anvil .

Dwarves spam anti magic, war machines and tough infantry to mop up. When I play VC against dwarves and get all the magic which is integral to my army blocked, not fun. When I play elves/empire, and get my toys templated off, it's not fun. When I play Bret's, and get cannons through my lances, it's not fun. When I play demons and get my 600 odd point model removed on turn 1, it's not fun.
When I play warriors, and get my troops templated, and my prince cannoned, it's not fun.

I think you get the just of it. Dwarves aren't fun.

**Purifier**

thedarkavenger wrote:
Makumba wrote:
thedarkavenger wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:
Dwarves are an excellent army to screw with tournament game metas.

Relying on magic spamtricks to win? Not this game!

I'm sorry. I didn't realise that dwarves didn't spam anything.

That is not what he said . Dwarfs don't spam magic , mostly because they don't have mages and there is one anvil .

Dwarves spam anti magic, war machines and tough infantry to mop up. When I play VC against dwarves and get all the magic which is integral to my army blocked, not fun. When I play elves/empire, and get my toys templated off, it's not fun. When I play Bret's, and get cannons through my lances, it's not fun. When I play demons and get my 600 odd point model removed on turn 1, it's not fun.
When I play warriors, and get my troops templated, and my prince cannoned, it's not fun.

I think you get the just of it. Dwarves aren't fun.

The depressing part is it doesn't necessarily mean you lose the game or even that dwarves are a strong army. It just means that their tricks are not fun. Even if you win the whole game, when someone purple suns one of your biggest units and you lose a fourth of your points to one dice throw, that's not fun. It doesn't matter if you're managing to do the same to him or if you're managing to wring a win out of what you have left, that spell isn't fun if you have no chance at all of countering it. The same goes for dwarves. They have things that just kill, and all you can do is stand there and watch it. Yeah, you can still win the game, but I set up to play against someone, not to simply roll off a bunch of dice, which is what it sometimes feels like.

**DukeRustfield**

Right. Unfun strategies are still unfun whether you win or lose.

That's where TFG can come in. He usually has unfun strategies that win. But at the core of it, it's unfun. TFG wasn't invented because a guy was making games super enjoyable.

**Formosa**

DukeRustfield wrote:
Formosa wrote:
You like I cannot comment on the " most common list for Dwarfs" all we can do is comment on the lists we have seen

Are you familiar with games? At all? Anyone who has played a game ever knows you will see armies that are composed of better units when players are given the option. It has happened in every edition of every game that ever existed.

-What was more common in 7th DoC, plaguebearers or Bloodletters?
-What was more common in 7th WoC, Marauders or...anything?
-Doc 7th Flamers or Doc 8th anything except Flamers?
-HE 7th Teclis or generic Lord caster in 8th?
-7th Giants or 8th non-Giants?

There's a ton. Did the meta magically change because people suddenly got bored of sculpts and strategies or was it because they gravitated to the most OP and advantageous set of units? For someone who has been gaming in one form or another for over three decades I can say with 100% certainty it is the latter.

This isn't just game theory, it's basic economics. If people have the option of buying a car that is exactly identical in every way to another car except it gets double the MPG, they are going to choose it. Dwarfen strengths aren't their ability to field so-so infantry. It's their ability to shut down magic and field a battlefield full of war machines. Things that no other army can do as well.

This isn't opinion, that's just the way the game is. Denying it is absurd because the numbers are printed right there.

Your a fool, pure and simple if you think that what you have seen online represents the mass market, all the examples you have given represent the Tournies that no one cares about, keep banging that drum duke no ones listening, so you beat it louder even after i and several others have told you that your tourny view on dwarfs are irrelevent.

Grass roots 40k and fantasy has nearly been ruined by people like you, trying to force others into your views on how the game should be played and what is "fun"

Post 2014/02/06 05:22:49 Subject: New Dwarf Hype
Formosa wrote:
You like I cannot comment on the " most common list for Dwarfs" all we can do is comment on the lists we have seen

Are you familiar with games? At all? Anyone who has played a game ever knows you will see armies that are composed of better units when players are given the option. It has happened in every edition of every game that ever existed.

-What was more common in 7th DoC, plaguebearers or Bloodletters? In your meta, the only one you can actually comment on, dont know, here it was Bears... at tournys, non tourny the most common i had seen at the time was slaanesh
-What was more common in 7th WoC, Marauders or...anything? ONLY 1 person i ever saw used this and guess what... tourny list, of the 6 (including mine) chaos armies he was the only one who spammed marauders, i went mono Tzeench
-Doc 7th Flamers or Doc 8th anything except Flamers? As above in your meta maybe and at tournys, 1 person used a deamons netlist and i crushed him with my dwarfs, netlist doesnt = good player
-HE 7th Teclis or generic Lord caster in 8th? Well here is an odd one, was he not banned over your end too? he was for certain tournys here and as such we saw generic much more often
-7th Giants or 8th non-Giants? this one is easy, non giants, except me i used 2 in my chaos army

So from your condecending list we good a good idea of what kind of player you are, we already knew but its nice to see it confirmed, your a tourny player... yep thats why your bitter, you no doubt took a magic spam or such army and ran into dwarfs and got pissed, boo hoo, all the above examples show me that you should probably either stop playing tourny games for a bit and ..chill out a bit, or stop spewing your anti casual gaming online, im fine with either

**DukeRustfield**

No point in reading your posts. You're a troll with no grasp of gaming it seems. You were asked to bring up a poll on it. You said it doesn't matter--when you were proven wrong. What we see doesn't matter--when you were proven wrong. Nothing, apparently matters. In antarctica there are tens of millions of people playing ranger dwarfs. But they don't have internet, or planes, or phones, so none of us know about it. Fine, cool. Go back to 40K, I'm sure it's fun too and totally balanced in your world view.

You're on ignore. So if you respond. It's not to me.

**thedarkavenger**

Purifier wrote:

The depressing part is it doesn't necessarily mean you lose the game or even that dwarves are a strong army. It just means that their tricks are not fun. Even if you win the whole game, when someone purple suns one of your biggest units and you lose a fourth of your points to one dice throw, that's not fun. It doesn't matter if you're managing to do the same to him or if you're managing to wring a win out of what you have left, that spell isn't fun if you have no chance at all of countering it. The same goes for dwarves. They have things that just kill, and all you can do is stand there and watch it. Yeah, you can still win the game, but I set up to play against someone, not to simply roll off a bunch of dice, which is what it sometimes feels like.

I've played against dwarves regularly for 8 months. Various players. I call that period the death of hobby. Every non-dwarf player I know, calls his games against dwarves that too. As do the people who represent the majority of the UK warhammer scene, the competitive players. My experiences with dwarves are generally having 10 or so models left by the end of the third turn. When I played VC, my characters died in the first two turns, often not getting a single spell off. Explain how that's fun. And don't give me the "That's just the list, not the army" bollocks. Every dwarf player ever who knows how to play the game will be taking war machines, because it's a case of bringing a gun to a knife fight.

**kirsanth**

Formosa wrote:
In your meta

Seems to apply to much else written there too. . . .

**Rommel44**

Sounds like people have various opinions on why they love or hate playing the Dwarf's. However, when it comes to Dwarfs they are an army that relies heavily on unit placement at the beginning of the game, as they lack the movement to do little else at the moment. And I can understand why Purifier on his Tau comparison, as Dwarf armies can make the most effective Gunline lists in this edition with the +1 to hit Thunders and the auto-hitting Organ Gun, but like most books, I expect shooting to get a bit toned down for them as the name of the game is CC in this edition. Also Dwarfs have plenty of weaknesses still, it's just in my experience that many people fail to exploit them or in my case, I always try to minimize my weaknesses to the point where they wouldn't effect my army. Right now, Dwarfs have Rune Magic, a Strong anti-Magic Phase, are extremely tough, great Leadership, and effective war-machines and missile troops have good armor saves. That's what makes them a strong army but some of those could change with the new book

But that doesn't mean that Dwarf's have to sit back and do nothing. Many times I have actually marched forward with my Army, which has caught many opponents by surprise, and I loved running fluffy units such as Slayers and other things, but in Tournament play, like everyone else, I will take the list that gives me the best chance for victory.

**Formosa**

kirsanth wrote:
Formosa wrote:
In your meta

Seems to apply to much else written there too. . . .

Not sure if serious...

My Meta (area of play) is different from his (area of play) as one is UK and the other US, these 2 countries play differently, BTW just checked Wiki just in case you were right and i wasnt useing the term correctly, I was useing it in the right context.

Well Said Rommel, you summed it up quite nicely, just because you can run that tourny list with all guns and what not, doesnt mean you always do, in normal games you like to run whatever you like and enjoy it, that is the point i have been trying to get over to Duke but seem to have failed