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So I hear the Anvil can move now any confirmations of that?

from what im seeing its just a piece or artillery, so yes, i will check again incase there are some special rules that forbid it

The drakeguns are so cool! I love the models, I love the rules so much.

^+1000 and i don't even play dwarfs. They got great rules my flamers are so jelly!

You know, I'm quite surprised to find myself agreeing with thedarkavenger. I mean, I still disagree with the "no fun to play against", as I've not heard that except against all but the most hardcore gunlines, but they DO need variety. Heck, even if they're going to maintain reliance on warmachines, make them different for once. From what I've heard, Organ guns haven't really gotten worse (hit on BS3 but fire 2 artillery dice now) and the new stuff looks awesome. It'd be cool to see a Dwarf army about harassment with implacable wall rather than just straight up gun lines and cannons all day. Heck, it'd make a ton of difference for TK IMO, who just die to Dwarf armies currently. We'll see; I'm worried about if they neutered magic resistance in an edition where magic is so strong but that's more of an issue with the rules in general. I'm sure they'll remain fairly playable regardless.

For the first time in ages, I'm really excited about a fantasy release. Gonna need to start practising up again to be at my best.

Eyjio wrote:
You know, I'm quite surprised to find myself agreeing with thedarkavenger. I mean, I still disagree with the "no fun to play against", as I've not heard that except against all but the most hardcore gunlines, but they DO need variety. Heck, even if they're going to maintain reliance on warmachines, make them different for once. From what I've heard, Organ guns haven't really gotten worse (hit on BS3 but fire 2 artillery dice now) and the new stuff looks awesome. It'd be cool to see a Dwarf army about harassment with implacable wall rather than just straight up gun lines and cannons all day. Heck, it'd make a ton of difference for TK IMO, who just die to Dwarf armies currently. We'll see; I'm worried about if they neutered magic resistance in an edition where magic is so strong but that's more of an issue with the rules in general. I'm sure they'll remain fairly playable regardless.

For the first time in ages, I'm really excited about a fantasy release. Gonna need to start practising up again to be at my best.

Be careful. The dwarf players are going to say you're wrong for playing a different race and that dwarves are perfect the way they are.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
You know, I'm quite surprised to find myself agreeing with thedarkavenger. I mean, I still disagree with the "no fun to play against", as I've not heard that except against all but the most hardcore gunlines, but they DO need variety. Heck, even if they're going to maintain reliance on warmachines, make them different for once. From what I've heard, Organ guns haven't really gotten worse (hit on BS3 but fire 2 artillery dice now) and the new stuff looks awesome. It'd be cool to see a Dwarf army about harassment with implacable wall rather than just straight up gun lines and cannons all day. Heck, it'd make a ton of difference for TK IMO, who just die to Dwarf armies currently. We'll see; I'm worried about if they neutered magic resistance in an edition where magic is so strong but that's more of an issue with the rules in general. I'm sure they'll remain fairly playable regardless.

For the first time in ages, I'm really excited about a fantasy release. Gonna need to start practising up again to be at my best.

Be careful. The dwarf players are going to say you're wrong for playing a different race and that dwarves are perfect the way they are.

The only way to make dwarfs non gunline is to make them move just as fast as other armies reliably or give dwarfs goblin/skaven costed harrasing units aka making miners/rangers realy cheap. At all other times it is just not worth it to go up the field . Right now a dwarf unit to pull of a charge needs its opponent to fail it own charge or for people to play 3 way games and the dwarfs opponents to get stuck in melee or terrain.

I already went over this, but most armies move 4. When they charge, it's 2D6+4 instead of 2D6+3. Avg 11 vs. 10. Please stop making it seem like they are vastly slower than all the races.

They could do any number of things to balance it. Like they can always march without any checks, but only straight ahead because they're stubby and stubborn. etc etc etc.

Yes they are , because first turn your march move is 2" slower then the 4" moving one . This means that compering to a different faction unit that started in the exact same place and charging on turn 3 your laging 4" behind and then have a 1" penality for being dwarf and suddenly your charge is not 2d6+3 , but 2d6-2" compering to an identical unit that started in the same place as a dwarf one would .

But you're not charging to a spot. You're charging to a unit. It's not the olympics where you're all sitting on the same starting line and running a dash. You are moving towards each other from opposite sides. If you meet in the middle or meet 6 inches towards your side it doesn't amazingly matter.

Your charge is 2d6+3. Period. There are no extra points awarded at the end if a unit moved 50 inches or more.

Duke is right. The fact that you can't run as far is a lesser issue.

Is it an issue? Can 1 inch make a difference? Yes. Of course it can.

Does it mean you might aswell not move and will always be outmanouvered? Not by far.

Unless of course you're running towards a (oh delicious irony) gunline, whether or not complimented by magic. That difference should most definitely make dwarfs more inclined to go gunline, although the boost to gyrocopters may mitigate this somewhat.

Dwarves were hugely in need of an update. This one was hugely disappointing. Hammerers are awesome (both models and rules), but that's about it. Everything except apparently warriors (stayed the same) quarrellers (got heavy armour) and gyrocopters (got cheaper) got either more expensive, worse or both at what they/it are supposed to do, meaning that basically the army as a whole was nerfed.
Neither gunline nor combat dwarfs got the boost they needed to match every other army's shiny new toys.

 SRSFACE wrote:
So, hey, rather than join in this e-peen contest, I figured I'd post something interesting I noticed.

You know how the Dwarves went on sale this weekend? Their limited edition codices are almost gone, and probably are by now. They had 1000, and were down to just 60 when I checked this morning.

That's impressive. That's the fastest I think any LE codex has sold for WHFB or 40k this edition. Well, I guess Space Marines sold faster because they had 500 of 5 different books rather than just 1000 books, but still. People are hyped about dwarves.

It's interesting to me that they really didn't start selling until the "preview" copies of the Army Book made the rounds. I think a lot of people are tired of forking out a lot of money for a book for an army that sucks (LE Dark Angels, LE Tyranids). It's one thing when it's a good, fun, solid army. It's another one altogether when your army sucks and you might be looking at playing another army or game. That $100 can go a long ways towards getting you started on something else.

Nice to hear that the rumors say the Dwarf's got a solid army book.

Whelp I was looking forward to starting my first fantasy army but not at 50 bucks for 10 guys, and I need probably 100ish for a good sized game. Even If I cheated and used blank bases on my trays and just one unit for the front line, some places I go wouldn't let me play, and people will give you "the look" like your some kind of scum for resorting to this when THEY spent all the money they should to build a proper army.

Seriously how does GW plan to attract new players like this?

 Orock wrote:
Whelp I was looking forward to starting my first fantasy army but not at 50 bucks for 10 guys, and I need probably 100ish for a good sized game. Even If I cheated and used blank bases on my trays and just one unit for the front line, some places I go wouldn't let me play, and people will give you "the look" like your some kind of scum for resorting to this when THEY spent all the money they should to build a proper army.

Seriously how does GW plan to attract new players like this?

Because I bought, two gyrocopters, 6 boxes of longbeards/hammerers all the clampack heroes, and the book

Soon to be 3 boxes of Ironbreakers

"Dwarves are no fun to play against." This is so, so, sad and for so many people, so true. I have been playing Dwarves for 27 years, and while much has come and gone in that time, GW has not addressed the fundamental problem at the heart of Dwarf armies - mobility.

The simple truth is that if a dwarf player's opponent brings more ranged capability to the table than the dwarves do (be it shooting or magic), the Dwarf player must make his way across the battlefield and engage the enemy in their deployment zone to win.

This is even less fun for the dwarf player than it is for someone else facing a gun line, because of 6" march moves. 6" march moves are less than the base non-march move of many units in the game. So the basic mentality of a Dwarf player has to be, under this scheme, how do I force the enemy to come to me or how do I give myself the ability to get quickly into their deployment zone?

This leads to the two basic types of dwarf lists -- gun lines to make them come to me, or ranger/miner/anvil lists to go to them.

What GW really needs to do is to break this mold and provide mobility options. So long as the basic issue still exists when facing an opponent with more ranged capabilities, the basic solutions and responses must be the same.

Removing the movement enhancing component of the Anvil will probably, sadly, steer more players away from the ranger/miner/anvil lists.

I am desperately hopeful that Vanguard will help by giving Dwarf players more options to get up close and personal -- what we don't know yet is, will the points cost of adding the vanguard option be too heavy a tax? Multiple gyrocopters and bombers may also help, just as Dogs of War or Allies used to years ago, but only time will tell.

If you hate playing against gun line armies, please for the love of God let GW know that this isn't fun for you. Until they get this into their heads, they will not be willing to truly break away from the "Dwarves are slow" history that truly works in their fluff but truly does not work on the tabletop.

 Verthane wrote:
"Dwarves are no fun to play against." This is so, so, sad and for so many people, so true. I have been playing Dwarves for 27 years, and while much has come and gone in that time, GW has not addressed the fundamental problem at the heart of Dwarf armies - mobility.

Mobility isn't as important as you make it out to be. I play a combat army, and I rarely leave my deployment zone, unless I have to. You all cry like little girls about this, and it is really a miniscule matter. It's a textbook argument, albeit a slowed one, as to why "dwarves are fun and you're just wrong."

 Verthane wrote:
The simple truth is that if a dwarf player's opponent brings more ranged capability to the table than the dwarves do (be it shooting or magic), the Dwarf player must make his way across the battlefield and engage the enemy in their deployment zone to win.

Magic capabiity? A dwarf player has no right to complain about magic, when the army is so good at denying it. IF I can deny my opponent combat res, I wouldn't cry and whinge when my opponent occasionally manages to kill a guy. As for higher ranged capability via shooting, nobody can bring more of that than dwarves. wjic his the problem. Dwarf shooting is far too good. Rerollable S5 templates are not fun to play. Regardless of how you think other armies are in the wrong for not being dwarves.

 Verthane wrote:
This is even less fun for the dwarf player than it is for someone else facing a gun line, because of 6" march moves. 6" march moves are less than the base non-march move of many units in the game. So the basic mentality of a Dwarf player has to be, under this scheme, how do I force the enemy to come to me or how do I give myself the ability to get quickly into their deployment zone?

Once more, movement is a miniscule issue. You can quite happily run a combat army that doesn't leave the combat zone. It's called a reactive army. But the fact that dwarf combat troops are designed to mop things up after war machines, means that they cannot do that. And they need the machines. Which, again, goes back to the core problem of lack of variety

 Verthane wrote:
This leads to the two basic types of dwarf lists -- gun lines to make them come to me, or ranger/miner/anvil lists to go to them.

The correct term is lead. Past tense. The current meta means that dwarf combat and anvil lists don't really work. Due to the popular armies walking straight over them. Which leaves us with, you guessed it, the gunline. Which again links back to the lack of variety issue.

 Verthane wrote:
What GW really needs to do is to break this mold and provide mobility options. So long as the basic issue still exists when facing an opponent with more ranged capabilities, the basic solutions and responses must be the same.

What GW need to do is give the book some variety. Mobility isn't important. You don't see Empire players complaining that elves are M5. You know why? Mobility is a miniscule issue. That can be easily averted. Just take stacks of 10 warriors or miners. They act as chaff, which due to the relative movement of your army, can do their job very well.

 Verthane wrote:
Removing the movement enhancing component of the Anvil will probably, sadly, steer more players away from the ranger/miner/anvil lists.

I am desperately hopeful that Vanguard will help by giving Dwarf players more options to get up close and personal -- what we don't know yet is, will the points cost of adding the vanguard option be too heavy a tax? Multiple gyrocopters and bombers may also help, just as Dogs of War or Allies used to years ago, but only time will tell.

If you hate playing against gun line armies, please for the love of God let GW know that this isn't fun for you. Until they get this into their heads, they will not be willing to truly break away from the "Dwarves are slow" history that truly works in their fluff but truly does not work on the tabletop.

Stop focussing on a single flaw of the book. Especially one of the most pointless ones. The main flaw is the lack of variety. Dwarves don't need to get up close and personal. They need more variety in lists. The inclusion of irondrakes and gyrobombers are two steps towards the completion of this. Once that issue is resolved, and we see a variety of dwarf lists, the complaints will stop. If the new book results in the same list, then the complaints will continue.

Lack of variety is a problem in the Dwarf army, but movement (or lack thereof) is as well. When marching, Dwarves are moving 4" less than Elves, and 6" less than Ogres, which is a significant amount. Dwarves' lack of movement also inhibits their ability to wheel about, which again is an issue.

Really though, the two problems are linked, which I think is the concerning part. Empire's movement of 4 isn't particularly amazing, but they have Cavalry, Fliers and Fast Cav. These are the units that provide the chaff, flanking etc. This is why I'm hoping the Gyrocopter is awesome in the new rules, because it would not only add variety, but also add a good manoeuvrable component to a Dwarf army that would help offset the fact the army as a whole is so slow.

You can't compare M of Dwarfs and Ogres. It's something like 95% of the infantry core in the game has M4. The rest are M3 and M6 (with a few exceptions). Ogres are super elites and pay for their ridiculous attributes by costing super elite.

If you look around far back enough to earlier edition gunlines, you will see people REALLY complaining about dwarfs. When you could have a bazillion cannons and stonethrowers and you basically had to have them because you charge distance was fixed.

These forums ran brown with poo over hatred for dwarfs because you had to march your army up to an infinity of ranged attackers and war machines who weren't going to move an inch forward.

I think one of the earliest games I saw was an old Ogres vs. Dwarfs. Though Ogres sucked more at the time. I thought it was cool all these giant models. By the time they reached the dwarfs there was like 2 left.

Well, I've now seen the pics someone uploaded of the dwarf book. It's exactly the same as the old one. With a rune system that was changed slightly and a few more ranged options.

So, I guess dwarves will still be the dullest race in fantasy.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've now seen the pics someone uploaded of the dwarf book. It's exactly the same as the old one. With a rune system that was changed slightly and a few more ranged options.

So, I guess dwarves will still be the dullest race in fantasy.

I think the new Dwarf book is amazing, from what I've seen of it. Obviously in such a limited time frame it's hard to make a proper judgement, but they have a ton of fantastic rules, some brilliant runes and some excellent character builds. There's not been a huge increase in variety, but the Gyrocopter is a big step in the right direction. It's fairly cheap, effective, fast and you can take six (that's right, isn't it?) of them in a normal size army. Dwarfs at least have some proper chaff now.

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've now seen the pics someone uploaded of the dwarf book. It's exactly the same as the old one. With a rune system that was changed slightly and a few more ranged options.

So, I guess dwarves will still be the dullest race in fantasy.

I think the new Dwarf book is amazing, from what I've seen of it. Obviously in such a limited time frame it's hard to make a proper judgement, but they have a ton of fantastic rules, some brilliant runes and some excellent character builds. There's not been a huge increase in variety, but the Gyrocopter is a big step in the right direction. It's fairly cheap, effective, fast and you can take six (that's right, isn't it?) of them in a normal size army. Dwarfs at least have some proper chaff now.

Having seen the book itself, it's 99.99% the same, with some minor changes to make things seem less of the same, whilst they change the bare minimum. Most dwarf armies won;t change at all.

I disagree I believe the Dwarf book will change the near. They can do multiple different armies now. You've got mobility and can spam strollaz to get to the enemy if you want to overcome 3" move or spam slowness to get the charge. +1 S on the charge is just unnecessary. Hatred everywhere, stupid good defensive Runes, Armour Piercing EVERYWHERE. Silly unkillable anvil. Stupid cinder blast bombs that make you short range for stand and shoot with ludicrous S5 retelling shooting. Slayers actually being useful. Then the Gyrocopter you'll see so many Gyrocopters.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've now seen the pics someone uploaded of the dwarf book. It's exactly the same as the old one. With a rune system that was changed slightly and a few more ranged options.

So, I guess dwarves will still be the dullest race in fantasy.

I think the new Dwarf book is amazing, from what I've seen of it. Obviously in such a limited time frame it's hard to make a proper judgement, but they have a ton of fantastic rules, some brilliant runes and some excellent character builds. There's not been a huge increase in variety, but the Gyrocopter is a big step in the right direction. It's fairly cheap, effective, fast and you can take six (that's right, isn't it?) of them in a normal size army. Dwarfs at least have some proper chaff now.

Having seen the book itself, it's 99.99% the same, with some minor changes to make things seem less of the same, whilst they change the bare minimum. Most dwarf armies won;t change at all.

I think this is a MASSIVE exaggeration. Just because they didn't get Mechanical Bears or Rock Golems or a Zeppelin, doesn't mean they haven't changed. The core values of a durable, brave army that excels at war machines have remained, but that's like complaining the new Dark Elf book was bad because Dark Elves remained an elite yet flimsy army with great magic. Yeah, people are going to take cannons still, but Dwarves have a LOT more stuff to play around with now.

Yeah , but D eldar did change. No more spaming hydras , no more unkillable dudes on pegasi , if someone is realy realy rich it may even be possible to take witchelfs .

As DA said yes I could buy gyros and am probably going to buy a 10 man drake unit , just like all HE are runing 10 sisters for the flaming ranged weapons . But everything else is the same, there is nothing in the book that forces me to go up the table or even makes me want to go up the table .

The new book is amazing for me, it means that my Foot force can actually move around now and go to the enemy, this is a big change in an of itself, secondly i can now take more gyrocopters and thats sweet too, lastly i can take part in the magic phase (however badly) and possibly force my oponent to actually consider take magic defence against dwarfs, while most of the book remained "the same" thats a facade, points changed all over the place but the things i take varied little or took a drop in points.

Long live the go get em dwarfs

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, I've now seen the pics someone uploaded of the dwarf book. It's exactly the same as the old one. With a rune system that was changed slightly and a few more ranged options.

So, I guess dwarves will still be the dullest race in fantasy.

I think the new Dwarf book is amazing, from what I've seen of it. Obviously in such a limited time frame it's hard to make a proper judgement, but they have a ton of fantastic rules, some brilliant runes and some excellent character builds. There's not been a huge increase in variety, but the Gyrocopter is a big step in the right direction. It's fairly cheap, effective, fast and you can take six (that's right, isn't it?) of them in a normal size army. Dwarfs at least have some proper chaff now.

Having seen the book itself, it's 99.99% the same, with some minor changes to make things seem less of the same, whilst they change the bare minimum. Most dwarf armies won;t change at all.

I think this is a MASSIVE exaggeration. Just because they didn't get Mechanical Bears or Rock Golems or a Zeppelin, doesn't mean they haven't changed. The core values of a durable, brave army that excels at war machines have remained, but that's like complaining the new Dark Elf book was bad because Dark Elves remained an elite yet flimsy army with great magic. Yeah, people are going to take cannons still, but Dwarves have a LOT more stuff to play around with now.

Did core change? No. DId the character section change, apart from getting the same treatment every other book did? No. Did the existing special and rare stuff change? So little it makes no difference.

The dwarf book is the same as the dark elf book. The changes are absolutely pointless. They make no difference to the book and could have been released as a supplement.

Every dwarf list can still run the same s5 templates, the same flaming cannons, the same sit in the corner blocks and anti magic. If it isn't broken, why would any dwarf player fix it?

Every dwarf list can still run the same s5 templates, the same flaming cannons, the same sit in the corner blocks and anti magic. If it isn't broken, why would any dwarf player fix it?

Except of course they can't run S5 grudge throwers. They probably won't run flaming on a cannon anymore and the ability to put anti-magic into the list has been made more expensive and less effective.

The reason Dwarf players will change their lists (if not their tactics but I know some who will including one of the best dwarf players in the world) is because the old dwarf book didn't really work at tournaments and the new one will most likely go straight to the top.

Look at the Daemon book. They actually changed that and their was uproar. The Lizard book did largely stay the same (the tournament build didn't really change) yet it was popular. The dwarf book hasn't moved away from the core dwarf values but has mixed it up a lot. The only real shame is no slayers in core. Though they may fix that with a supplement.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Every dwarf list can still run the same s5 templates, the same flaming cannons, the same sit in the corner blocks and anti magic. If it isn't broken, why would any dwarf player fix it?

Except of course they can't run S5 grudge throwers. They probably won't run flaming on a cannon anymore and the ability to put anti-magic into the list has been made more expensive and less effective.

The reason Dwarf players will change their lists (if not their tactics but I know some who will including one of the best dwarf players in the world) is because the old dwarf book didn't really work at tournaments and the new one will most likely go straight to the top.

Look at the Daemon book. They actually changed that and their was uproar. The Lizard book did largely stay the same (the tournament build didn't really change) yet it was popular. The dwarf book hasn't moved away from the core dwarf values but has mixed it up a lot. The only real shame is no slayers in core. Though they may fix that with a supplement.

You can double up on rune of penetration, which is now much better, as it allows the +1 strength per rune, AND a reroll of a single die. And the amount of flaming monsters out there, and Throgg, means that the rune of burning on a cannon is worth it.

The old book didn't work at tournaments, is because people didn't play it, mostly. I know a lot of people who just camp out of range of the war machines for 6 turns. Will this book go to the top? Probably not, as the lists won't REALLY change. It's still going to be 3 big blocks backed up by war machines in a corner. The blocks may change, but the lists won't.

As for the changes, Demons needed it. Lizards didn;t. The Dwarves did, and still do. As for the core dwarf values, you can make the book more varied without that. Like chariot cannons, or something.

The best way to look at the book is like DUke Nukem Forever. I.E. A disappointment. It's been expected for far too long, so without it being perfect (Which it's so far from) it'll be a disappointment.

You can double up on rune of penetration, which is now much better, as it allows the +1 strength per rune, AND a reroll of a single die.

This probably highlights why you've got the opinion of the book that you have. If you buy 2 runes of penetration you're only at +1 strength and you get 1 reroll to wound in the entire battle. You either haven't read the book and only read the rumours or you haven't had a good look at the book.

As stated you rarely saw a Gyrocopter before at 140 points they are now better and 60 points (43%) cheaper. I expect you'll see lots of them. They've just become the best chaff in the game. This is a good and deep book and I expect it to go top of the Tournament scene.