Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Deathwing are not currently, in any sense of the word, a competitive army. They are expensive and not overly efficient at what they do. In smaller points games they are severely limited in their choice of builds due to the expensive cost of compulsory choices.

These issue create a challenge when designing a DW list for 1000 points. Your options are so limited that you must make each one count.

I'll post 2 of the lists that I currently play, but also want to see other players' ideas on what they feel would make the most competitive choice for a pure deathwing list.

HQ
Belial - TH/SS

ELITES
7x Deathwing knights

TROOPS
5x Deathwing Terminators - 1x assault cannon
5x Deathwing Terminators - 1x assault cannon

This list would centre around deepstriking the knights and belial in the middle of the enemy and threatening the opposing heavy hitters/ Warlord. The knights are the most durable option available for this kind of work, and need to be to survive the enemy's shooting phase.

HQ
Belial
Deathwing command squad x 5 - CML, Standard of Fortitude.

TOOPS
Deathwing Squad x5 - assault cannon
Deathwing Squad x5 - assault cannon

A list focussing around the FNP banner, in a hope of keeping the terminators alive. Adds survivability, but does limit maneuverability somewhat.

My gut tells me the list with the Knights would fare better than the other. I just think they would be able to munch through opponents better. In addition, 7 T5, 2+3++ marines is more durable than 5 T4, 2+5++ marines with FNP (i would think).

At that point-scale I would agree with Deuce and stick with the Knights. At 2k, I would switch to the command squad as you'll have more termies to benefit from FNP.

Don't forget how bad the DWKs are after using their smitemode (plus they're sitting ducks an entire enemy round, one Plasmacannon shot and you're bereft of everything). If you're not going against CSM, that AP4 is not doing much against MEQs.

Does the banner of fortitude not benefit units within 12"?

Depending on how you play it may be a lot better to take that banner!

 Thairne wrote:
Don't forget how bad the DWKs are after using their smitemode (plus they're sitting ducks an entire enemy round, one Plasmacannon shot and you're bereft of everything). If you're not going against CSM, that AP4 is not doing much against MEQs.

People say they are 'bad' after smite, but they really aren't. With WS5 and Str 6 they still force a lot of saves.

Against an MEQ squad on the chrge, 5 DWK will do on average 5 unsaved wounds, at initiative order. 5 TH/SS terminators will do 6.2 wounds on average, striking last. In the next round of combat the Knights will do 3, TH/SS will do 4. This isn't too much of a difference.

When you also consider that DWK are tougher in cc, and factor in losses on the TH/SS before they swing, I would say they are very comparable vs most targets.

The biggest problem with the DWK is facing multiple AV 13/14 walkers, wraithknights or 2+ save units. You an take one of them out, but another will bog you down. TH/SS will fare better here. Belial normally uses a hammer with the knights to help a little vs these issues.

The real reason for the knights in this list is that they are cheaper than TH/SS termies (So I could get 7 instead of 6), and against the right targets they could group up to become T5, whih dramatically helps their survivability.

Does the banner of fortitude not benefit units within 12"?

Yes it does, and can be nice if you are rolling well enough. But the banner might not last all that long, and it also limits your movement somewhat.
I'm currently unsure about it.

BBB, I am confused. Are you running all of your command squad termies with TH/SS? Because that is what it seems you are comparing above ^.

The number of wounds may not differ, but the AP differs greatly.
AP2 just ignores armor and always has Str 8 that ID's quite a lot of stuff.
Compared to the Knights Str6 and Ap4, that's not as useful.

With my calculation, they do 16 attacks on the charge.
Against MEQ, that's 10-11 hits, killing as much if they smite.
The turn afterwards its 11 attacks, 7-8 hits, killing 2-3.
So thats 14 MEQ's dead.

Termies would deal 15 attacks on the Charge, hitting and killing 7-8 MEQs. Next round, 10 Attacks, 5 hits, 5 dead.
So it's 12-13 dead vs 14 dead, albeit at higher Initiative.

Problem is that DWK's start to drop off compared to Termies afterwards. Their job is to kill a big threat, and then be spent for the rest of the game.
Yes, they are tougher, they have "burst"-damage, but fall off compared in damage output on the longer run and can be bogged down more easily. It's the AP4 that's killing them.
If you go against CSM, well, go to town

Not to derail the thread but about that whole "versus chaos thing'...

How do people play it? I mean, if i were playing DA against a loyalist dex wouldn't it make sense that the Brotherhood was routing out some potential corruption and therefore the benefits provided when battling chaos should also be recognized?

This might come down to tourney vs. friendly play.

That would be a house rule you can agree on, but RAW and RAI is definately only against units from C:CSM.

 Thairne wrote:
That would be a house rule you can agree on, but RAW and RAI is definately only against units from C:CSM.

Agreed.

 Deuce11 wrote:
BBB, I am confused. Are you running all of your command squad termies with TH/SS? Because that is what it seems you are comparing above ^.

No sorry, in another list I played, I used 3 squads of terminators, with 1 of them working as an assault squad (all TH/SS, except for 1, with a CML/CF or HF/CF).

Basically the same as list number 1, but with 6 TH/SS squad instead of the knights.

In the end I decided the knights would be better, as they will certainly be taking fire before they get into cc and are cheaper and more durable than the alternative.

Yes, they are tougher, they have "burst"-damage, but fall off compared in damage output on the longer run and can be bogged down more easily.

My maths was right before, over 2 turns, with the knights not using their power up, TH/SS terminators deal 2 more wounds (8 vs 10) , but strike slower. So yeah they are a little slower at grinding through marines (they key is to keep the sergeant and his ap3 flail alive).

However they are better vs other targets. A blob of termagants or ork boys would have a field day with TH/SS terminators, because many will be killed before they get to attack. They would certainly bog it down with fearless numbers for most the game. The knights at WS5, I4 and T5 would fare much better.

Also, belial can be used to tank str 8 hits when with the knights, due to having T5. When with TH/SS termies it would be too risky to do this.

I'm not saying TH/SS are bad here though. Certainly they are better vs many targets. However I would prefer them to be deployed in a LRC to make sure they get to cc, and this greatly limits a 1k point list.

The knights are better at deep striking in, as they might survive to actually do something.

Clearly none of you DWK haters have used them with Ezekiel.
With or without him they are incredible. Comparing them to TH/SS Termies is silly, as you most definitely already have plenty of THs if you're playing DW. DWK complement them extremely well.

On topic, here's my 1000 point Deathwing list:
Belial

Mortis Dreadnought - 2x TLLC
Mortis Dreadnought - 2x TLLC

Deathwing Squad (x5) - CML, 1x TH/SS
Deathwing Squad (x5) - CML, 1x TH/SS


Sometimes I'll swap out the dreads and TH/SS for a Command Squad with the FNP banner. At 1k DW takes a huge handicap. There is no good 1k DW list, unfortunately.

I had considered a list with mortis dreads, though I haven't got the new IA2 though so I don't know if they changed the points of the weapons. I was disappointed about the points change to Contemptor mortis dreads though, I had a list like this

Belial

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought - 2x Kheres assault cannon
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought - 2x Kheres assault cannon

Deathwing Squad (x5)
Deathwing Squad (x5)

990 points

However I've heard they have upped the cost by on the dreads by 20 points now, so this list just wouldn't work anymore.

In HH Book 2 the TLAC Mortis Dread is 15 points more. That version still has BS5 too whereas the AI version has apparently been errata'd back to BS4.

For the base mortis I'm still going off points from the free pdf update they did: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Smupdate.pdf

I don't know if they are still the same though.

Its a shame about the contemptor mortis, because the kheres cannons really solve a lot of problems (anti air/horde/armour).

I'm currently balancing up the Lascannons or the Autocannons, I don't know which I prefer. Deathwing needs heavy anti armour (missile launchers are weaksauce vs AV13/14), and anti horde (because 40+ points for 2 bolter shots is not good).

I would probably go for lascannon, as the CMLs/assault cannons in the list already provide mid strength firepower.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Deathwing are not currently, in any sense of the word, a competitive army. They are expensive and not overly efficient at what they do. In smaller points games they are severely limited in their choice of builds due to the expensive cost of compulsory choices.

These issue create a challenge when designing a DW list for 1000 points. Your options are so limited that you must make each one count.

I'll post 2 of the lists that I currently play, but also want to see other players' ideas on what they feel would make the most competitive choice for a pure deathwing list.

HQ
Belial - TH/SS

ELITES
7x Deathwing knights

TROOPS
5x Deathwing Terminators - 1x assault cannon
5x Deathwing Terminators - 1x assault cannon

This list would centre around deepstriking the knights and belial in the middle of the enemy and threatening the opposing heavy hitters/ Warlord. The knights are the most durable option available for this kind of work, and need to be to survive the enemy's shooting phase.

HQ
Belial
Deathwing command squad x 5 - CML, Standard of Fortitude.

TOOPS
Deathwing Squad x5 - assault cannon
Deathwing Squad x5 - assault cannon

A list focussing around the FNP banner, in a hope of keeping the terminators alive. Adds survivability, but does limit maneuverability somewhat.

Belial - TH/SS

ELITES
6x Deathwing knights

TROOPS
5x Deathwing Terminators -3x Chainfist- 1x CML
5x Deathwing Terminators -4x Chainfist 1x CML

Would draw fire away from the knights, tis assuming you deepstrike with EVERYONE!

Personally I'd rather have the extra guy instead of all those CFs, why would you need so many?

Btw you cannot deep strike everything. It would be cool if you could, but unfortunately Deathwing assault still uses reserves rules for determining how many units can deep strike.

So with 3 squads and belial, you can deepstrike 2 things max. (Normally it would be knights with belial when I play).

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
For the base mortis I'm still going off points from the free pdf update they did: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Smupdate.pdf

I don't know if they are still the same though.

Pretty sure the prices are the same but it doesn't mention Interceptor, Skyfire, or BS5... HH is the way to go. Thanks GW! I love picking and choosing rules!

This faq they did for 6th edition adds the special rules and hull points: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

I've never known normal dreads to have BS5 in standard 40k. Only venerables and contemptors get it I believe.

Either way, on a standard mortis BS5 isn't all that important as you will nomrally be taking TLLC or TLAC, and the twin-linked already gives them a high accuracy.

Lascannons seem the better choice for deathwing and 6th overall, even with the increased points cost, but I do like the autocannon dreads made by using the quadgun for their arms.

Thanks for those links!

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Clearly none of you DWK haters have used them with Ezekiel.
With or without him they are incredible. Comparing them to TH/SS Termies is silly, as you most definitely already have plenty of THs if you're playing DW. DWK complement them extremely well.

On topic, here's my 1000 point Deathwing list:
Belial

Mortis Dreadnought - 2x TLLC
Mortis Dreadnought - 2x TLLC

Deathwing Squad (x5) - CML, 1x TH/SS
Deathwing Squad (x5) - CML, 1x TH/SS


Sometimes I'll swap out the dreads and TH/SS for a Command Squad with the FNP banner. At 1k DW takes a huge handicap. There is no good 1k DW list, unfortunately.

I might try this list out, but change it to this:

Belial

Mortis Dreadnought - 2x TLLC
Mortis Dreadnought - 2x TLLC

Deathwing Squad (x5) - 4x TH/SS, 1 HF/CF
Deathwing Squad (x5) - CML

This way I still get to try and get belial into the fight with some assault terminators.

Hordes would be a great threat against this list though, particularly melee ones.

I actually have terminators enough to try out this funky list myself:

Army (1000 pts):
Belial (TH/SS)
Deathwing Command Squad (1x TH/SS, 2x LC, x1 PC, Apothecary)

Deathwing Terminator Squad, (x2 TH/SS, x2 LC, x1 AC, CML)

Deathwing Terminator Squad (x2 TH/SS, x2 LC, x1 HF, CML)

Tactics:
Squad with Assault Cannon starts on the table. It can fire the AC and CML at approaching units. This unit could advance towards the enemy in hope that Belial with draw some of the fire.

Belial deep strikes on turn 1 without scatter, fires the Plasma Cannon and hopes to be in CC next turn (requires good positioning).

The heavy flamer squad either goes in with them on turn 1 and risks to scatter or placed in reserve to try to utilise Belials teleport homer (that is probably more risky than scatter dice thou).

Thoughts:
The idea is that with storm bolter, you will be heavily outgunned by a normal/shooty army, 30 bolt shots will probably not kill more than 2/3 MEQ's per turn.

So get rid of those pesky storm bolters, replace with 2 TH/SS per squad and put these in front to soak up heavy weapon fire.

2 Lightning Claws in each squad will help against horde armies.

The Plasma Cannon on terminators is rarely seen, but in a small game you have to roll 1 on the gets hot, fail the 2+ armour save and the 5+ FnP to take a wound, Not a big risk since you should get in CC asap with Belial and the his command squad (its also twin-linked on first turn).
The PC will help against elite and vehicles and give the command squad something to do while being a sitting duck on the first turn.

Just some thoughts on that list:

i) The command squad is a waste imo. The only extra thing you take is the apothecary, but you lose a scoring unit for it.

ii) The turn the terminators are deepstriking, if they are not going for a critical shot (HF on an etheral in a tau gun line/ the rear armour of an important vehicle) then they may be better off running. This way you avoid any templates the opposition have to throw at you next turn, and also get into a better position to assault.

iii) I hear you on the issue of storm bolters and their weak damage output, but lightning claws aren't great either, they are slightly better vs anything T4 3+ and below (we're talking 0.3 wounds each more than a PF). Against T5, 2+ and vehicles the standard loadout is better. I want lightning claws to be good again too, but atm I'm not convinced.

iv) Assault cannon & CML on a standard loadout are leagues better than the plasma cannon in my experience. They offer better damage output vs most targets, and also better damage against vehicles. I only take them if I am out of points.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Just some thoughts on that list:

i) The command squad is a waste imo. The only extra thing you take is the apothecary, but you lose a scoring unit for it.

ii) The turn the terminators are deepstriking, if they are not going for a critical shot (HF on an etheral in a tau gun line/ the rear armour of an important vehicle) then they may be better off running. This way you avoid any templates the opposition have to throw at you next turn, and also get into a better position to assault.

iii) I hear you on the issue of storm bolters and their weak damage output, but lightning claws aren't great either, they are slightly better vs anything T4 3+ and below (we're talking 0.3 wounds each more than a PF). Against T5, 2+ and vehicles the standard loadout is better. I want lightning claws to be good again too, but atm I'm not convinced.

iv) Assault cannon & CML on a standard loadout are leagues better than the plasma cannon in my experience. They offer better damage output vs most targets, and also better damage against vehicles. I only take them if I am out of points.

I hear you, if you convert the command squad to a normal deathwing, getting rid of the apothecary you can add an CML and replace the PC with an AC for the same points.

I was kind of amazed by small improvements of LC vs PF, its gets a little better against T3. If LC also had the ability to rerolls failed hits but gotten a point cost, it would have made terminators interesting against horde.

It's been a while since the last post, but there have been several additions to the W40K world that may change deathwing lists, biggest among these being the astartes forgeworld book, and codex inquisition.

I'm personally looking at something like this atm:

Belial

Mortis dreadnought - 2x TL-lascannons

5x Terminators - 3x TH/SS, 1 x HF
5x Terminators - 1x CML

Sicaran Battle tank - Sponson lascannons

Codex inquisition also has some great synergy with DW. Servo skulls will make deep striking potentially easier, and if taking coteaz you gain access to very cheap scoring units, a major weakness of DW.
It doesn't feel very fluffy for an inquisitor to be working closely with the DW however.

Anyone have any thoughts on this or other potential 1k point lists?

Edit: Possibly something like this using coteaz:

Belial

5x Terminators - 3x TH/SS, 1 x HF
5x Terminators - 1x CML

Sicaran Battle tank - Sponson lascannons

Coteaz
3x Acolyte - Bolters
3x Acolyte - Bolters
3x Acolyte - Bolters

I really, really like the idea of using the Sicaran (while it may fit better in a RW list) as well as cheap scoring via Inquisition. They both do great things for a DW list (not enough to get them way up there, but hey, this is DA we're talking about).

Fluff wise, huge no-no, but I'm just interested in making the army more usable on the table.

I don't have the Inquisition Codex, so I can't really think of lists implementing them.

This is the current Deathwing list I am trying to use:

Belial

Terminators x5 - Assault cannon
Terminators x5 - 4xTH/SS, 1xCF/HF

Spartan assault tank - Ceramite armour, quad lascannons

Belial can join either unit, dropping the ranged terminators in accurately, or using his beacon to bring them down with cover of the tank.
The assault terminators ride in the tank & deal with big threats, like MC's threatening the tanks with their smash attacks.

The spartan makes a nice centre piece and provides melta immune mobile cover.
Most lists at 1k have limited answers to the spartan, the only big issue being lance weapons.

Edit: I'm also liking the landraider Achilles at the moment. Whilst it does not transport any units (only 6 cap means 3 terminators), Belial can start the game in it, and bring the 2 squads of terminators down around him.
It is immune to lance and melta, which makes using it less of a gamble, and also counters 2 of DWs weaknesses: hordes and taking out armour vehicles at range.

Not possible. At 1000 pts you can't field enough supporting units to make terminators effective. Sure your threatening but there so few of you. My 1000pts list has two lascannon preds and a whirlwind. On top of the other heavy weapons, you won't have a prayer

Sure, this is DW we are talking about, everyone knows they are not competitive. The thread is about making the best of what we've got and using it at 1000 points. It is certain that any of the lists posted here will not compare favourably to a standard list, but that's one of the aspects of fielding an underdog army.