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A friend and I recently got another one of our friends to start playing 40k. He wanted an army was fast, durable, and could hit pretty hard, so he picked up the Dark Angels, specifically the Ravenwing. He's played some games and he seemed to be liking his army quite abit, but given his (so far) small investment into the hobby, his flexibility is extremely limited. He's started considering adding to his collection to increase his viability in games. At the moment, he only has 6 bikes, Sammael, about a dozen speeders of various patterns, and a Landspeeder Vengeance. He was considering Tactical squads, more bikers, and a Dark-shroud.
Being the ork player that I am, I was thinking that some cheap(er) Tacs would be good to off-set his more point-heavy skimmers, provide some much needed objective holding, and to act as a distraction. Is my advice to him viable? Would there be something else that would be just as (or possibly more) viable, and still fit within the fast and durable theme he desires?
Any an all advice would be very helpful. Thanks!

If he likes Ravenwing then it's easy more bikes. Bikes of all kinds RW Bikes, Attack Bikes, and especially RW Knights. And then buy some extra bikes to make either a Chappy or Libby on a bike. With Sammy and another HQ on bike you're throwing down 2 RW Command squads, one of which should have the Dakka banner. Since it affects the TL bolters on the bikes you have a mobile army of 4 TL Bolter shots per bike at 24". You can even turbo boost the Command squad with the banner in between firing with your normal RW squadrons to spread the extra dakka even further

The Dark Angels benefit from taking a pure Wing list - Ravenwing is our best, Deathwing is second, and Greenwing is dead last.

So you would suggest not getting any Tacticals? I'm waaaay too used to bringing numbers to the field to even consider NOT bringing basic troops.

Land Speeder blobs of 5 are one of the most cost effective units in the codex and a lot of people have no idea how to properly handle them because it's unexpected.

Also, Ravenwing Knights. Probably the best non-armor unit in the codex.

Also scratchbuilding a librarian on a bike as the secondary HQ is awesome. Librarians in our codex are pretty great with the wargear they can bring.

Darkshrouds are alright. The biggest issue is they take up a fast attack slot and are a singular unit that isn't flying, so they tend to get shot to death very quickly. I would recommend just leaving it with a heavy bolter instead of springing for the assault cannon because it rarely lives past turn 1 or 2 so you're better off dropping those points into plasma/melta/flamers for the ravenwing attack squads. It's also worth noting they are useless against Tau (markerlights peeling away cover saves) and Eldar (Wave Serpent shields ignore cover) which are probably the two best armies right now. They aren't terribly useful against Chaos Daemons who tend to rely on melee and giant-ass flying creatures that are going to ignore cover when they vector strike. Against any other marines, though, I have had a lot of success with my darkshroud.

I also believe Whirlwinds and Vindicators are great for our codex. They are really solid units for all space marine codexes in general but they really shore up a lot of what Ravenwing armies lack, which is to say blast templates.

When playing with Sammy in your army Ravenwing bikes are your basic troop. Therefore his next purchase should definitely involve some bikes. I would suggest some ebay dark vengeance bikes while they are still in production and being sold on ebay. Other ravenwing command squads (same box as ravenwing knights which are also good) with the banner are one of the few unique units DA get. He should make sure one of them has the grenade launcher. The dark shroud is not bad but only super useful in higher point games.

I second the recommendation to get DV bikers while they are still available. You can also convert a librarian pretty easily with the plastic one from the DV set and one of the DV bikes. You can find some pics of my conversion here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/506265.page

Okay, so the DV Bikers are a must (which we already knew). Should he avoid getting tacticals though?
And isn't the Dark Shroud pretty hard to kill? Unless I'm mistaken, doesn't it get a 2+ cover save if it goes flat out thanks to Jink and Shroud?

It does have a 2+ cover save, but there's a lot out there that ignores cover. It's also just a land speeder at the end of the day so a basic bolter can glance it to death. The flip side of that coin is anything that's shooting at your Dark Shroud isn't shooting at the rest of the army which is a lot more threatening

It really depends on what he wants to run but for a stronger list I would avoid tactical squads. They add nothing that the bikes don't already do and do better but they do loose cohesiveness in his army as with his force now he can hammer a small part of an opponent with his entire army. With the TAC squad he will loose part of that ability.

A foot command squad can be useful however. You can put the banner of devastation on them and put them into a landraider crusader. You need a lot of bolter bikes to make this worthwhile though and I would buy black knight models before this as they are unique and look great.

The shroud is AV10 and 2 HP. Even with a 2+ cover save (not guaranteed) it dies to any shooting from Tau, any dark reaper or serpent shooting from eldar, and most armies have an ignore cover/jink/etc. shooting. IG have an order which makes you reroll cover saves, LoTD ignore cover. In fact most of the armies that the cover save on the dark shroud can not be mitigated will want to come up and punch you anyways. There is also the fact that to take full advantage of it he needs to cram a fair number of points within the bubble. This leads to two conclusions 1) he is clustering his army and reducing the flexibility of his list by taking it and 2) he needs to have enough points of units that will benefit that it becomes worthwhile. If he takes one and it only benefits a single landspeeder then he should have just taken another landspeeder.

Just bikes. Normal, attack and certainly black knights. I wouldn't go overboard with speeders, The few he has should be enough. (personally I don't run any, but some people like them).

Don't get tac squads. Focus on ravenwing, it is certainly the most competitive build for DA, and arguably the most fun.

(Get your friend to remake the vengeance speeder if he is competitive, that thing is aweful, the same kit makes the dark shroud, which has some tactical value at least).

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I wouldn't go overboard with speeders, The few he has should be enough. (personally I don't run any, but some people like them).

Seriously 5-man-strong speeders are probably the best hidden gem in our codex, especially if a Dark Shroud is parked behind them to give them stealth. It's going to run you some points, but it's worth it against anyone who isn't Tau or Wave-Serpent-Spam Eldar.

You're not beating them with Dark Angels pretty much regardless of what you bring, so trying to think of a way to do so is kind of pointless. Bringing really fun fluffy units that are amazing against everyone who isn't a WAAC TFG gamer is fun!

I still have to say, if you want something that's going to shore up a lot of weaknesses in a Ravenwing list, it's Vindicators. Can regular space marines bring them? Yes. Do regular space marines (depending on the chapter) do it better than we can? Yes. Does that make the unit somehow not worth taking in a Dark Angels army? No, not remotely. Ravenwing armies typically lack ways to deal with hordes, or ways to deal with high toughness models. Vindicators serve both those roles, and if you bring two of them they are such high priority targets, your opponents won't be putting rounds into your Ravenwing Attack Squads rocking melta guns (bonus!) or your Black Knights (quadruple bonus!).

Ravenwing armies typically lack ways to deal with hordes,

Lol wut? Have you ever played devastation standard? Best anti horde list in the game. Even black knight spam has little issue with hordes tbh.

ways to deal with high toughness models.

It depends what you mean by high toughness here. Centurions and the like can be dealt with by black knights. Especially with -1T grenades.

Higher toughness things (like T7+) are more of an issue. My ravenwing army has difficulty dealing with iron armed GUOs and wraith knights, but a vindicator wouldn't be the answer for this.

Seriously 5-man-strong speeders are probably the best hidden gem in our codex, especially if a Dark Shroud is parked behind them to give them stealth. It's going to run you some points, but it's worth it against anyone who isn't Tau or Wave-Serpent-Spam Eldar.

You're not beating them with Dark Angels pretty much regardless of what you bring, so trying to think of a way to do so is kind of pointless. Bringing really fun fluffy units that are amazing against everyone who isn't a WAAC TFG gamer is fun!

Ravenwing are still pretty competitive tbh, and can certainly pull wins off against serpent spam. So I disagree with your first comment. Secondly, some speeders are fine, but putting 400+ points into them is not a good idea. Get black knights or more scoring units to be competitive.
Having 400 points in a unit that cannot score, contest and will be blown away by anything, including glanced to death by basic infantry, is not a good idea. for the same cost you could get 10 black knights, who are actually the stars of the DA codex.

A few speeders with CML and heavy bolters works ok, but for everything else the bikers do it better.

We're not really "competitive" around here (I even generally try to avoid lits the use/abuse Lootas and Dakkajets, often to my detriment), and I don't think I've played against a sing WAAC person yet. So it's not really a deal of making a "competitive" list so much as what he should invest in first. I suppose the answer I'm getting is more bikes and/or Knights.

And wouldn't plasma be reasonably effective against high-toughness models? YOu need to get in kinda close with the Plasma Talons, but they seem like they would do fine to me.

And wouldn't plasma be reasonably effective against high-toughness models? YOu need to get in kinda close with the Plasma Talons, but they seem like they would do fine to me.

It's a good counter to most MCs actually. Just iron armed greater daemons and wraithknights are the big problem, because as you said, you have to get very close. And you don't want your expensive bikes being close to them.

(Wraithknights with shields are real pain in my experience).

Land speeder typhoon squads can be decent. Either backed up by a PFG or shroud.

I would not get a vindicator unless you really want a vindicator. They don't actually do anything the rest of the list cannot manage and they lack cohesiveness with a biker ravenwing list.

You can make a pretty great black knight list actually and it is a blast to play. The basics of such a list are usually Sammy + biker PFG libby leading it, 2 ravenwing command squads (perhaps 1 with banner of fortitude but keep upgrades few and far between), 1-3 black knight squads (the command squads do the same thing but are 2 ppm cheaper), and bolter and flamer/melta bikes for the troops slots. The black knights and command squads will need the GL on them as those are fantastic. The general concept is to scout up, shoot, and then assault. You then bounce out of combat the end of the opponent's assault phase using the extra movement from HnR to get close to his juiciest targets and repeat. Even the BK list can handle hordes fairly well as they are pretty good in CC. The list tends to be troops light but the troops are very mobile so you can reserve them if needed.

Really your friend will need to form a solid concept of what he wants his army to be sometime in the near future as he can still go dualwing or ravenwing. Ravenwing also has 2-3 pretty good builds; black knight spam, bolter banner centered ravenwing troops spam, and I have seen some good usage of speeder centered lists backed up with other elements (hard army to play though). Before that choice is made he can still buy another 6-12 DV bikes (I recommend swapping some of the weapons to melta and/or flamers, proxy first though to test what works for him) and a command squad. After that any purchase he makes will either setup what he is playing or not get used consistently.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Ravenwing armies typically lack ways to deal with hordes,

Lol wut? Have you ever played devastation standard? Best anti horde list in the game. Even black knight spam has little issue with hordes tbh.

Yes. I don't consider that a Ravenwing army as you're typically bringing a power armor command squad inside a land raider. It's actually what I run most the time. I was sticking with the ravenwing theme, and no we do not typically have ways to deal with hordes in those lists because 3 guys for 80 points just doesn't stack up to 20 guys for 80 points.

And if your black knights don't struggle against hordes, your horde players are doing it wrong. Black knights die to lots of fire as easily as regular bikers do. Black knights are a great unit, but they typically don't last for me beyond a turn or two after they arrive on the table because everyone around here knows to kill them quickly. I actually think I am going to stop taking more than a single squad of them because I'd rather just have more Ravenwing bikers most games.

It depends what you mean by high toughness here. Centurions and the like can be dealt with by black knights. Especially with -1T grenades.

Higher toughness things (like T7+) are more of an issue. My ravenwing army has difficulty dealing with iron armed GUOs and wraith knights, but a vindicator wouldn't be the answer for this.

I meant things that are t6+, yeah. I've never been able to handle daemon princes in my armies with any of the set ups I tend to use, and I've tried lots of different set ups. Thing about Black Knights is the grenade and shooting with their plasma guns all happens at the same time so you don't benefit from the rad grenade unless you also shoot it with something else. Knocking T6 models down into instant death range from the Vindicator is pretty nice and has saved my bacon more than a few times.

Ravenwing are still pretty competitive tbh, and can certainly pull wins off against serpent spam. So I disagree with your first comment. Secondly, some speeders are fine, but putting 400+ points into them is not a good idea. Get black knights or more scoring units to be competitive.
Having 400 points in a unit that cannot score, contest and will be blown away by anything, including glanced to death by basic infantry, is not a good idea. for the same cost you could get 10 black knights, who are actually the stars of the DA codex.

A few speeders with CML and heavy bolters works ok, but for everything else the bikers do it better.

What kind of speeders are you running where basic infantry are ever in range of your speeders? If they're rocking heavy flamers (which, granted, is pretty good against a lot of armies we struggle against) you're at 36" range or better. The key to utilizing them is their range and mobility, something black knights sorely lack. Your 10 black knights (which btw are 420 points) only have 18" range for 10 plasma shots (or more likely, 8 plasma shots and two krak grenades) which means they will be in range of enemy counter assault units, pie plates, you name it. I love my black knights, but they die to basic infantry. Killing a black knight is the equivalent of killing a terminator in points value, so as soon as they close in on anything, you better believe any smart player is going to focus everything they can on them.

Besides, I like how people always say "oh it can be glanced to death by basic infantry, as if everyone they've ever played against rolls nothing but 6s on their damage rolls. Any sucker shooting at AV10 with S4 weaponry is wasting their shooting, or literally has nothing else to do with that unit. Seriously, man, have you actually PLAYED with a speeder blob or are you just theorycrafting on how much you believe they'd suck compared to an equivalently priced black knight squad? My 5-man double-HB land speeder detachment goes infantry hunting and gets their points back or at the very least denies an objective or two every single game I've ran them. 300 points. 30 HB shots at 36" range on a mobile 12" platform. Easily worth their points. Easily.

Also what Eldar players are you playing where you're able to deal with wave serpent spam? We can't do jack to serpent spam. Mass plasma is horribly ineffective against AV12 with 4+ saves vs. shooting, especially when you'll never be in range to charge as the serpents also get to move 12 inches AND you only have a 1/6 chance of your rare penetrating hits to actually do more than zing a hull point. A wave serpent with just holofields is cheaper than 3 black knights, harder to kill, and has more effective shooting because of the range of even just the default shuriken cannon, let alone if they spend a couple more points for a scatter laser and replace the shuriken catapult with another cannon. Mind you it's not just a problem Dark Angels have but all Marines players do. I just want to know what you're doing that you find effective against wave serpent spam because I've tried everything and nothing has been effective enough to make a difference.

Ravenwing command squad takes the dakka banner. Simple. You don't need a landraider. Ravenwing theme and hordes sorted.

Thing about Black Knights is the grenade and shooting with their plasma guns all happens at the same time so you don't benefit from the rad grenade unless you also shoot it with something else.

Good news for you, you are wrong about this. The grenades and the plasma talons hit at the same time, but the grenade only requires that you hit, meaning that the wounds the squad then roll for are then effected by it.

or at the very least denies an objective or two

Do you mean they kill a unit holding the objective? Because one of the worst things about speeders when compared to bikes is that they do not contest or claim objectives (except for 1 scenario), Nor do they count for linebreaker.
Speeders are so vulnerable to cover ignoring things (read tau/ vector strikes/wave serpents) I don't see how you can run more than a few without them giving away hundreds of points.

Ravenwing are better than most vs serpent spam, because they are mobile. Flood the board with bikes and limit their mobility. Serpents are easily krak grenaded to death once you five them nowhere to run.

And yes obviously don't shoot them with plasma.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Ravenwing command squad takes the dakka banner. Simple. You don't need a landraider. Ravenwing theme and hordes sorted.

You're telling me a banner of devastation on the Ravenwing Command Squad doesn't make them priority number one? Without a land raider shell, they just get shot to death, easily, by everything in the enemy army, OR your banner is not in a position to actually help you.

Thing about Black Knights is the grenade and shooting with their plasma guns all happens at the same time so you don't benefit from the rad grenade unless you also shoot it with something else.

Good news for you, you are wrong about this. The grenades and the plasma talons hit at the same time, but the grenade only requires that you hit, meaning that the wounds the squad then roll for are then effected by it.

That's a good point. I need to bring this up next Warhammer night because there's a good chance we've been playing this wrong for far too long.

or at the very least denies an objective or two

Do you mean they kill a unit holding the objective? Because one of the worst things about speeders when compared to bikes is that they do not contest or claim objectives (except for 1 scenario), Nor do they count for linebreaker.

Five-man Ravenwing command squad, with apothecary, joined by Sammael and PFG biker librarian, is pretty resilient. Better at keeping up with the rest of your army than the LR is too.

Add a Darkshroud nearby if you think you need to. I'm not sure you do.

You don't have to keep the banner alive forever. If it dies and you've already used the banner to wipe out a significant number of enemy troops, so what? You still have relentless bolters to finish off the rest...

You're telling me a banner of devastation on the Ravenwing Command Squad doesn't make them priority number one? Without a land raider shell, they just get shot to death, easily, by everything in the enemy army, OR your banner is not in a position to actually help you.

Your banner is always priority 1, whether it is in a landraider or not. I could just as easily say a single MM could bust the tank. One thing to consider is turbo boosting. Move into range to buff units with the banner, and then turbo boost 12 (+D6) out of range, or out of LoS.
I do sometimes run a landraider in my RW list, but I don't put the banner inside. Normally it deploys along my deployment zone, blocking line of sight to the banner, with a PFG libby behind it. Use it as a mobile wall.

Another issue of landspeeder blobs is that they eat into your fast attack. If you are taking a landspeeder group and a dark shroud it doesn't leave much space for black knights. Personally if I ran speeders, I'd take them as troops, and run 2 single HB/ML speeders to harass flanks and try to get at vehicle side armour. Sure they can shred infantry. But you have the banner for that.

Just because they have the ability to blow up wave serpents of an inferior player doesn't make them good against wave serpents, man. If you're assaulting a wave serpent, the guy you're playing against has no idea what he's doing

How big is the table you are playing on? 12 inch scout, 12 inch move. If you have the first turn then you should be into his deployment zone straight away. His serpents kill stuff, sure. But you should have enough bikes to take some of them down the next turn (especially with MM if he used his serpent shields). Limit his movement by using yours.

. Eldar > Dark Angels

Sure, Eldar are better than most things. But bike armies give serpent spam lists more of a challenge than most.

And no. DW are terribad. I like to play them. But RW are better competitively in almost every way. If you want to beat serpents, DW are not the tool for the job.

If you take any DW Terminiators with your Ravenwing army, consider taking just a squad of Deathwing Knights. That unit always surprises me with the stuff it can pull off.

Also, I find it almost mandatory to take a Contemptor-Mortis dread with Kheyres Cannon and CM. Great anti-air platform.

Or take hyperios air defense platforms. They work well for AA and vehicle/MC hunting. They also are great for allowing more DW DSing units. Finally they are somewhat fluffy as they could be transported on the back of a bike or dropped down from a ship.

Either way gives a huge boost to the DA codex viability.

Mortis contemptor dreads are cool, however I've not played them since they've been nerfed. I believe they became 20 points more expensive and went from BS5 -> BS4.

At that price you are only 15 points cheaper than 2 standard mortis dreads with TL autocannons.

The price increase and BS change certainly makes regular mortis dreads more comparable now.

I had never considered turbo boosting the banner to cover more squads halfway through the shooting phase. Thanks for tip!