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My theory is they got mixed up with the cabal just because they spent to much time infiltrating aliens and alien worshiping societies then later decided to follow them in destroying their own species.

Yea people argue about the most mock worthy primarch, the way I see it Alpharious stands out amongst them all. All the rest did what they did because they thought it was right, or felt they had no choice, that goes for both sides of the heresy. Corax probably would have sided with Horus if someone had explained to him that the empire he was fighting for was just a larger scale copy of the one that ruled the slave factory moon he grew up in, if Angron didn't have the nails and was allowed to save his people Angron and Corax might have been friends. Likewise Pertuboro Curze and Magnus wouldn't have joined Horus if they felt they had another option. Both The Ultramarines and Word Bearers believed that they fought for the survival of humanity, you really can't hate either of them for that. The fact that their was no need for purges even though they saw their primarch talking to a fething brain in a jar that was let on the ship speaks to the Alpha Legion not being unnaturally loyal like the Word Bearers but just stupid. I thought they were supposed to use other people not be used in turn. The fact that they eventually turn on the Cabal isn't a saving grace for me, it just means they can't even be consistent in their treachery.

Oh and a final thought, if the cabals plan with humanity destroying itself was really what the Emperor wanted then Horus was more than justified. Your thoughts?

The point of the Horus Heresy is the fall of the traitor legions was "justified, and tragic."

Ever read The Iliad? Classic greek literature, man.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The point of the Horus Heresy is the fall of the traitor legions was "justified, and tragic."

Tragic, sure. "Justified"? Well, that would really depend on who you ask. Some of the traitor Primarchs, like Magnus, do indeed have some sympathetic reasons for turning against the Emperor. Others... were just idiots, like Angron, or psychopaths, like Fulgrim.

There never was a Horus Heresy. Chaos does not exist.
Those are just stories and myths the Imperium makes up to keep the people from standing up against their horrible living conditions and rebelling against the High Lords.
The High Lords would do everything to preserve their privileges and dominion over humanity. The God-Emperor is just their version of Big Brother.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
There never was a Horus Heresy. Chaos does not exist.
Those are just stories and myths the Imperium makes up to keep the people from standing up against their horrible living conditions and rebelling against the High Lords.
The High Lords would do everything to preserve their privileges and dominion over humanity. The God-Emperor is just their version of Big Brother.

Maybe that would be valid if the Imperium didn't often do everything in their power to ensure that the people DON'T know anything about the existence of daemons or chaos.

They know of its' existence. Civilians often speak of the Dark Powers, they just don't know details. Their imaginations do the rest and local superstitions will merge with Chaos and make the evilness much more relevant to each planet.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
The point of the Horus Heresy is the fall of the traitor legions was "justified, and tragic."

Tragic, sure. "Justified"? Well, that would really depend on who you ask. Some of the traitor Primarchs, like Magnus, do indeed have some sympathetic reasons for turning against the Emperor. Others... were just idiots, like Angron, or psychopaths, like Fulgrim.

Angron had a legitimate grievance against the Emperor, you know?

 Orblivion wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
There never was a Horus Heresy. Chaos does not exist.
Those are just stories and myths the Imperium makes up to keep the people from standing up against their horrible living conditions and rebelling against the High Lords.
The High Lords would do everything to preserve their privileges and dominion over humanity. The God-Emperor is just their version of Big Brother.

Maybe that would be valid if the Imperium didn't often do everything in their power to ensure that the people DON'T know anything about the existence of daemons or chaos.

Most people in the Imperium do know about the Warp and Chaos. The Imperium just does not want them to know anything beyond 'they are evil and we protect you from them'. Because if they knew the details, they would know that those so called 'Forces of Chaos' and 'Deamons' are just operatives of the High Lords that destroy a planet every now and then just to keep the Imperium's population fearful and opressed. That is why the Imperium so zealously hunts down any survivors of these operations.

The average Imperial Citizen knows less about Chaos than you do about Satan, and what they do know is known in that context.

Right. Pretty damn sure Angron had a very legit and possibly the best reason for turning traitor. His brothers and sisters were left to die because the emperor decided to haul him out of his final battle. That's a much more legit reason for turning than some of the traitors did..

Angron, in my view, is the Primarch that makes the most sense. His entire life was gladiatorial combat as a slave. He leads his comrades in a Sparticus-esque rebellion. His rebels are about to be overcome and make their symbolic last stand of defiance rather than live as slaves. The Emperor beams him up. Robs him of his final moment of glory. Angron hates the emperor from day one, he doesn't give a gak about conquering the galaxy. He should've died on his homeworld with his comrades, instead he copes but loosing himself in battle.

The only problem with his story I have is this abduction by the Emperor is blatantly untactful and kind of out of character. He approaches other primarchs in ways that appeal to them. For example, he doesn't interfere with Mortarion's struggles until after he's had his chance to prove himself and fails. The Emperor then lifts him up, as opposed to wanton abduction like Angron.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
There never was a Horus Heresy. Chaos does not exist.
Those are just stories and myths the Imperium makes up to keep the people from standing up against their horrible living conditions and rebelling against the High Lords.
The High Lords would do everything to preserve their privileges and dominion over humanity. The God-Emperor is just their version of Big Brother.

Maybe that would be valid if the Imperium didn't often do everything in their power to ensure that the people DON'T know anything about the existence of daemons or chaos.

Most people in the Imperium do know about the Warp and Chaos. The Imperium just does not want them to know anything beyond 'they are evil and we protect you from them'. Because if they knew the details, they would know that those so called 'Forces of Chaos' and 'Deamons' are just operatives of the High Lords that destroy a planet every now and then just to keep the Imperium's population fearful and opressed. That is why the Imperium so zealously hunts down any survivors of these operations.

See, now THAT would actually be grim dark. Those giant space cthulu wannabes are just an imperial smoke screen to keep things the way they are. Sort of the idea that the imperium secretly funds and eggs on the dissenters so that they can then control them by channeling them into pre determined swimming lanes.

Seconding the notion that Angron had a damn good reason to turn traitor. More so than most other primarchs had.

As for the Alpha Legion, Alpharius was not well regarded among the primarchs he came into contact with. He basically gut bullied by Guilman and El Johnson for not shouting huzzah and sending wave after wave into the meat grinder, instead relying on subterfuge, infiltration and general sneakyness. If I were still taking gak from the others even after conquering systems with minimal losses or investment, I'd size any chance to build my own imperium, with black jack and sororitas.

Honestly, I haven't read the books and just know what's in the codices. For me, Alpha Legion is the most appealing traitor legion because they didn't go overboard with mutations, warp madness and other brain-damaging behaviour like the other legions, They havent fallen into the grip of chaos, they just fight the imperium as it is. And honestly, who wouldn't rather see the imperium as it is now in ruins than protecting this rotten system from it's own population?

So yeah, Alpha Legion all the way.

Curze also had a good reason for leaving. He feared the retribution caused from his actions.

So did Perturabo, he destroyed his home planet and knew that the Emperor could never forgive him.

Actually, the only one without a good reason to turn was Horus, who did so because the voices told him to do it.

I don't think Alpha Legion is the only true traitor. Lorgar was doomed to go against the Imperium from the start. He needs to worship something and the Emperor wouldn't have it. His only choice is to go to Chaos. Magnus was also doomed to have a falling out with the Emperor. Magnus could never live without using his psychic powers. Coupled with his desire to learn as much as he can leads him to an inevitable overreaching of his powers, thus becoming used by Chaos. Granted, in almost every case, a primarch's issues could've been cleared up by a 20 min sit down with the Emperor it seems, but some had better reasons to turn than others. That's probably why so little is written with the Emperor in it; its impossible to justify his reasoning for doing the weird things he does. For example, engineering the most powerful psyker ever (Magnus) besides himself and then commanding him to not use it even in the slightest. Its like a god engineering a fish and telling it not to swim.

What about Mortarion?

The Emperor's actual personality is a problem of the setting. On the one hand, he is depicted as almost god-like, wise beyond human understanding, he has plans encompassing millennia - but on the other hand, his interaction with his sons is based on ancient Greek tragedy, where basic human failings like greed, hubris, sloth and so on lead to friends and families becoming bitter enemies.

And these two aspects just do not seem to fit so very well together.

Therefore, trying to justify the actions of this or that primarch is kind of pointless, because while on their own, their stories may make sense, the bigger picture just doesn't.

Yeah... according to the actual Horus Heresy fluff, the Emperor was a self-absorbed richard who could really have done with a copy of "How to make friends and influence people".

 TechmarineNic wrote:
What about Mortarion?

He always disliked the Emperor after he killed his foster father. Probably never forgave him for doing it.


It's not the best reason to be honest, but he did fall to Chaos before Nurgle took a fancy to him.

Ever seen the Watchmen? I kinda depict the Emperor as Dr. manhatten. After living for 38k years he grew "detached" from humanity. He is wise, he is ubersmart, he has, as said, plans that span millenia.
He still loves humanity and cares deeply for it, but he lost his "sociality", his primal understanding on how humans work. He just cannot fathom how others may react the way they do, since he is "so far above them".
Just like Dr. Manhattan who retreats to Mars. It makes sense, in a kind of way.

 Thairne wrote:
Ever seen the Watchmen? I kinda depict the Emperor as Dr. manhatten. After living for 38k years he grew "detached" from humanity. He is wise, he is ubersmart, he has, as said, plans that span millenia.
He still loves humanity and cares deeply for it, but he lost his "sociality", his primal understanding on how humans work. He just cannot fathom how others may react the way they do, since he is "so far above them".
Just like Dr. Manhattan who retreats to Mars. It makes sense, in a kind of way.

Actually kind of have to agree here.

Or he's a sterotypical brilliant scientist, gak human being.

 Thairne wrote:
Ever seen the Watchmen? I kinda depict the Emperor as Dr. manhatten. After living for 38k years he grew "detached" from humanity. He is wise, he is ubersmart, he has, as said, plans that span millenia.
He still loves humanity and cares deeply for it, but he lost his "sociality", his primal understanding on how humans work. He just cannot fathom how others may react the way they do, since he is "so far above them".
Just like Dr. Manhattan who retreats to Mars. It makes sense, in a kind of way.

Assuming the awesome "The Last Church" short story is canon or still canon or whatever (for a given definition of canon), this is explicitly stated by the last priest to be the problem with the Emperor (and is kinda the whole point of the story).

Thairne wrote:Ever seen the Watchmen? I kinda depict the Emperor as Dr. manhatten. After living for 38k years he grew "detached" from humanity. He is wise, he is ubersmart, he has, as said, plans that span millenia.
He still loves humanity and cares deeply for it, but he lost his "sociality", his primal understanding on how humans work. He just cannot fathom how others may react the way they do, since he is "so far above them".
Just like Dr. Manhattan who retreats to Mars. It makes sense, in a kind of way.

That is a cool perspective I hadn't even seen yet. Thanks for enlightening me!

FYI, the Alpha Legion are the only LOYAL Legion!

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Ever seen the Watchmen? I kinda depict the Emperor as Dr. manhatten. After living for 38k years he grew "detached" from humanity. He is wise, he is ubersmart, he has, as said, plans that span millenia.
He still loves humanity and cares deeply for it, but he lost his "sociality", his primal understanding on how humans work. He just cannot fathom how others may react the way they do, since he is "so far above them".
Just like Dr. Manhattan who retreats to Mars. It makes sense, in a kind of way.

Assuming the awesome "The Last Church" short story is canon or still canon or whatever (for a given definition of canon), this is explicitly stated by the last priest to be the problem with the Emperor (and is kinda the whole point of the story).

Spoiler:

Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with anything this man had to offer, no matter how noble or lofty his ambitions might be.

I've read that one and enjoyed it very much. It was well written, but I guess I interpreted the ending differently. But this makes just as much sense... I really feel like this is the way to see Him on Earth, since it makes the 2 Emperors we see fit together with a kind of logical explanation.

@Tiamat glad I could help

he Alpha Legion are the only LOYAL Legion!

How they plotted the destruction of humanity, their badguys by their very definition.

Lorgar was doomed to go against the Imperium from the start. He needs to worship something and the Emperor wouldn't have it. His only choice is to go to Chaos.

He tolerated wierd superstitions in other Legion like the Salamanders and Wolves.

As for the Alpha Legion, Alpharius was not well regarded among the primarchs he came into contact with. He basically gut bullied by Guilman and El Johnson for not shouting huzzah and sending wave after wave into the meat grinder, instead relying on subterfuge, infiltration and general sneakyness. If I were still taking gak from the others even after conquering systems with minimal losses or investment, I'd size any chance to build my own imperium, with black jack and sororitas.

Thats the old fluff, now he and his entire Legion are following the orders of a group of Aliens bent on destroying humanity and have been intent on doing this for 30 thousand years.

For me, Alpha Legion is the most appealing traitor legion because they didn't go overboard with mutations, warp madness and other brain-damaging behaviour like the other legions,

Theirs very little fluff on them at all and most of it is contradictory.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

The Alpha Legion are the only LOYAL Legion!

How they plotted the destruction of humanity, their badguys by their very definition.

We don't know that - and in fact, in later books, we see them actually working against the Cabal.

They're up to their own business - and who knows what that is, exactly?

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

Theirs very little fluff on them at all and most of it is contradictory.

And then, there is this, too!

They really should have just left them to Abnett...

I actually prefer to think of the Alpha Legion as split. We're told Omegon was killed at the hands of Guilliman, I think it was, but considering how into cloning they were, there's a good chance it was a body double.

I like to think Alpharius' side is the good guy side while Omegon's side is trying to destroy the Imperium. A split from within.

 SRSFACE wrote:
I actually prefer to think of the Alpha Legion as split. We're told Omegon was killed at the hands of Guilliman, I think it was, but considering how into cloning they were, there's a good chance it was a body double.

I like to think Alpharius' side is the good guy side while Omegon's side is trying to destroy the Imperium. A split from within.

Interesting but Alpharius and Omegron were very dissimilar from the other Marines in the AL.

They were taller, had more coppery skin and had different eyes, things that Robout Guilliman would have been sure to look for.

Then again, he may just have /said/ he killed Alpharon in order to look big and be able to tell all the other marines that he killed a Chaos Primarch, because when it comes down to the nitty gritty the Ultramarines are glory-hunters, and what other Chapters don't know can't hurt them.. Right?

But anyway, there's at least one of them alive.
PLOT TWIST: NEITHER OF THEM EXISTED

Ironclad Warlord wrote:

he Alpha Legion are the only LOYAL Legion!

How they plotted the destruction of humanity, their badguys by their very definition.

Plotting the destruction of cancerous cells isn't seen as evil. That's essentially how the Cabal sees humanity, thus the Legion working to wipe out the cancer that is Chaos by destroying the cells that carry it(humanity) isn't necessarily evil by any definition.

It's not like a single species is actually important to the existence of a galaxy. Except Tyranids, of course.