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2014/02/04 09:24:27
Subject: Re:Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
Kojiro wrote: I personally think the source material should be respected whenever it doesn't detract from the work- you may disagree.
The thing is, the source material in this case is not just G1.
There have been, what, a dozen? different Transformers series', various comics series, and a succession of toy ranges that have ranged from fairly close to wildly different to the media they were supposed to be spawned from, and most of them have been completely unconnected with those that came before, and each included new takes on old characters.
Ironhide was supposed to be a veteran soldier; a solid right hand for Prime. That came through in the movies. He didn't need to be red for that to work.
In these sorts of discussions, I'm always reminded of an interview with Sam Raimi back when his first Spider Man movie was released. His take on being 'true' to the source is that each time you take a story and tell it in a different way, you should change stuff. Otherwise, there's not really any point ... you might as well just stick with the original.
Michael Bay's Transformers movies aren't the G1 cartoons. Or any of the other cartoons. Or the comics. Or the original toys. They're just inspired by them. And that's fine... If I want to watch G1, I can go and grab the DVD and watch it.
2014/02/04 11:00:47
Subject: Re:Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
insaniak wrote: The thing is, the source material in this case is not just G1....
<<snip>>
Michael Bay's Transformers movies aren't the G1 cartoons. Or any of the other cartoons. Or the comics. Or the original toys. They're just inspired by them. And that's fine... If I want to watch G1, I can go and grab the DVD and watch it.
Again I'm not saying it should be 100% identical. If the changes make the work better as a whole I'm all for them. It's not some G1 or heresy dichotomy. But there has to be more there than the name alone. This Ironhide you talk of- the tough, veteran soldier and Prime's right hand- was nowhere to be seen in the film. Not only does Prime rely more on Bumblebee but this Ironhide makes no mention of being old. His legendary durability (or age) is never mentioned by anyone. His role is now 'weapon specialist', his distinctive voice gone, his alt mode changed and not even the colour preserved. Add to this his desire to turn a small dog into a crater and request to murder Sam's parents and the Ironhide in the film is just that- Ironhide in name only. You don't have to preserve everything but preserve something beyond 'Autobot'. Worse yet this treatment isn't limited to Ironhide but rife in the series.
The main mistake the Bay Films make is that they try to do too much. I actually really liked the first film and that was because it concentrated on a small core group of characters. As a result you knew exactly who everyone was and the action sequences where not over long and tedious like they were in the sequels.
I say slash his budget and you just might make the films enjoyable again.
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2014/02/04 12:03:02
Subject: Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
insaniak wrote: The thing is, the source material in this case is not just G1....
<<snip>>
Michael Bay's Transformers movies aren't the G1 cartoons. Or any of the other cartoons. Or the comics. Or the original toys. They're just inspired by them. And that's fine... If I want to watch G1, I can go and grab the DVD and watch it.
Again I'm not saying it should be 100% identical. If the changes make the work better as a whole I'm all for them. It's not some G1 or heresy dichotomy. But there has to be more there than the name alone. This Ironhide you talk of- the tough, veteran soldier and Prime's right hand- was nowhere to be seen in the film. Not only does Prime rely more on Bumblebee but this Ironhide makes no mention of being old. His legendary durability (or age) is never mentioned by anyone. His role is now 'weapon specialist', his distinctive voice gone, his alt mode changed and not even the colour preserved. Add to this his desire to turn a small dog into a crater and request to murder Sam's parents and the Ironhide in the film is just that- Ironhide in name only. You don't have to preserve everything but preserve something beyond 'Autobot'. Worse yet this treatment isn't limited to Ironhide but rife in the series.
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Soladrin wrote: This thread makes me happy I didn't grow up watching transformers.
I think the original transformers look dumb and boxy so I'm happy to enjoy my stupid big baybots.
The older transformers were good in the '80s and '90s; just like anything they transform with the times. Look at Star Trek, and insert anything else '60s-'80s brought into today....
insaniak wrote: Michael Bay's Transformers movies aren't the G1 cartoons. Or any of the other cartoons. Or the comics. Or the original toys. They're just inspired by them. And that's fine... If I want to watch G1, I can go and grab the DVD and watch it.
The problems with the Bayformer films extend way beyond the "But it's not like G1" whining. The fact that the Transformers have almost cameo appearances in their own film is a much bigger problem.
insaniak wrote: Michael Bay's Transformers movies aren't the G1 cartoons. Or any of the other cartoons. Or the comics. Or the original toys. They're just inspired by them. And that's fine... If I want to watch G1, I can go and grab the DVD and watch it.
The problems with the Bayformer films extend way beyond the "But it's not like G1" whining. The fact that the Transformers have almost cameo appearances in their own film is a much bigger problem.
I'll agree with this. One of my biggest problems with the whole movie series - Jazz. He had what, one line in the first movie? One of the coolest Autobots was just a name drop, and nothing more? Lamesauce.
Soladrin wrote: This thread makes me happy I didn't grow up watching transformers.
I think the original transformers look dumb and boxy so I'm happy to enjoy my stupid big baybots.
The older transformers were good in the '80s and '90s; just like anything they transform with the times. Look at Star Trek, and insert anything else '60s-'80s brought into today....
They also sucked.
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2014/02/04 17:02:06
Subject: Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
Frazzled wrote: Actually, that alone makes me not want to see it. Grimlock, the Mighty suffers not riders.
Me thinks you haven't seen the classic cartoons.
Hey Blur was cool. Prime's too fat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to Grimlock with a rider... well we've already seen Wheelie (or something called Wheelie) but then Grimlock has, historically not really gotten along with Prime (as opposed to Wheelie- him friend!) so being Prime's mount does seem out of character. It's also worth noting that while the dinobots were large, this makes Grimlock absurdly large. Prime is 32 feet tall and looks small on Grimlocks back there. Grimlock's robot form must be staggeringly tall.
Grimlock's pushing titan sized.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/04 17:04:02
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2014/02/04 19:09:45
Subject: Re:Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
I don't mind Bay's Transformers movies much, it's quite nice to see a live action interpretation and I don't take them too serious. Lot of things could be better, get rid of the shaky camera syndrome, a coherent plot would be nice, a few decent mecha designers creating the robots instead of Mann and ILM.
2014/02/04 19:18:23
Subject: Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
don't make the robots so complicated. I couldn't tell what was going on on the big screen. Its a blur.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/02/04 19:21:39
Subject: Re:Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
Cheesecat wrote: With the exception of maybe the toys, Transformers has been gak since the beginning it's all just one big ad to sell toys, there's no depth to any if it and the animation is god awful.
So you're saying that the 1986 movie isn't on par with Citizen Kane like we've been led to believe? Interesting.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The problems with the Bayformer films extend way beyond the "But it's not like G1" whining. The fact that the Transformers have almost cameo appearances in their own film is a much bigger problem.
Oh there are most certainly other issues with the films than the lack of reference to the original work, but if it'd had those things I as a fan would have been far more inclined to overlook some of those issues (or at least for my inner fan boy to shout them down). Even the trailer for 4 appears to show a heavier focus on humans than I'd like. Bay does not seem to grasp that the humans are the supporting cast for the transformers in Transformers.
Alex Kurtzman & Roberto Orci are the screenwriters for the Bay films but they're also in charge of the recently cancelled Transformers: Prime. The contrast between how they portray things under Bay vs running their own (excellent) show is telling. It has the Bay version of Prime and Bumblebee (including him being a 'mute' ninja) and it was great because while a completely new story it maintained the elements required to have a fan look at it and recognise the franchise they liked in it.
Also I may have misattributed comments to Insaniak, if so my apologies but the point is sound.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The problems with the Bayformer films extend way beyond the "But it's not like G1" whining. The fact that the Transformers have almost cameo appearances in their own film is a much bigger problem.
That I can agree with. It wouldn't have been so bad if Shia Le Whatsisface wasn't so darn irritating.
That, and Bumblebee's 'voice'...
But other than that, I enjoyed the hell out of the movies. But then, I didn't really go into them expecting anything more than giant robots blowing the crap out of each other, and that I got in spades.
Hell, the cartoon that inspired these movies was also pretty rubbish, when you look at it objectively. It was a low-budget, slapped together toy advertisement with little attempt to maintain a continuity, and some realy, really dodgy plotlines. I still enjoy watching it every now and then, because it's still fun. And the animated movie, which I originally saw at the cinema, was just all sorts of awesomness... even though it too suffered from being spawned entirely to sell a new range of toys.
2014/02/05 02:02:16
Subject: Re:Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
djphranq wrote: What we need is for Michael Bay to start chasing serious source material like Gobots.
Interestingly enough, 'Battle of the Rock Lords' was a double-feature at the cinema with the Transformers animated movie here in Oz. The comparison between the two was... interesting.
As a nifty piece of trivia, both Peter Cullen and Frank Welker were in that movie as well...
Turns out Peter Cullen is also one of 3 or 4 guys who has done the voice of Eeyore in the Winnie the Pooh cartoons.
2014/02/05 11:37:19
Subject: Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
Soladrin wrote: This thread makes me happy I didn't grow up watching transformers.
I think the original transformers look dumb and boxy so I'm happy to enjoy my stupid big baybots.
The older transformers were good in the '80s and '90s; just like anything they transform with the times. Look at Star Trek, and insert anything else '60s-'80s brought into today....
Well, yeah, that's kinda my point ( though star trek will always look silly ) the old transformer design would look like completely gak in full CGI.
2014/02/05 11:41:48
Subject: Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
May I say that it could have been worse. Much... much worse.
Imagine Bay being into memes.
Now to hope that I haven't jinxed this and the song would slip into the soundtrack.
But yeah. Optimus riding Grimlock is pushing it... quite a lot.
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Unless I hear some insanely good praise over the film there isn't a chance in hell I will see it in the theater considering how god awful the last two were.
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2014/02/05 23:31:21
Subject: Optimus Prime Riding a robo-t-rex(Transformers 4)
Rotary wrote: I actually liked dinobot a bit more than grimlock when i was a kid.
Well of course. Dinobot was Grimlock 2.0.
Are we talking about the Beast Wars Dinobot? If so, I feel I must disagree. I felt that BW Dinobot was substantially more layered and nuanced, plot development wise - his motivations were more complex. In general I found that Beast Wars was probably the apex of character development and storytelling for the franchise, at least in proportion to what is possible for a cartoon designed to sell toys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/06 04:21:41
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