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Hey all I'm going to be finishing up getting my whole space marine army built once I finish buying what I need and I was wanting to start my own chapter. Now I do like Fire Hawks, however fluff wise they're pretty much all gone/turned into LotD, but I will be using their chapter tactics. I do have a name picked out for it The Eternal Flames, which I was doing as an ode to the Fire Hawks since they're gone. I know it's been claimed that they have a link to the Ultramarines, but UM also deny that claim. Could I just say my chapter is a successor chapter of the Fire Hawks, with the UM gene-seed? I just don't want to conflict with any fluff if at all possible. I'm also having issues coming up with a color scheme. Maybe some suggestions for color scheme? I also do plan on eventually making a complete collection of 10 companies for my chapter, so just also wondering is there a certain structure for each company or could I just make up each company/specialize it ala Great Companies for the Space Wolves.

If the Fire Hawks are not a descendant of the Ultramarines, then the Fire Hawks aren't carrying UM Geneseed. So you're kind of in a quandary there, as you can't claim to be a descendent of a Chapter of whom you are not carrying the geneseed.

So if you have UM Geneseed, you are a UM Successor Chapter. If you have Fire Hawks geneseed, then you are a Fire Hawks Successor Chapter.

Of course, the UM are the Primogenitor Chapter for 60% of all current SM Chapters, so having UM geneseed and claiming emulation of/respect for the Fire Hawks is fine (though don't forget that this was a Chapter in good with the Ecclesiarchy and were the first Chapter to support Sebastian Thor... so they, unlike many SM Chapters, did worship the Emperor as a god).

As for the layout, if you are going by strict Codex Astartes rules, then each Company has a specified role and function, but if not, then you can do whatever you want, really.

Thats all feasible, go for it. If you want to be an UM successor, though, you should probably stick to a traditional marineloadout for companies. The SM codex must surely explain the standard format.

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Fire Hawks are not a descendant of the Ultramarines, then the Fire Hawks aren't carrying UM Geneseed. So you're kind of in a quandary there, as you can't claim to be a descendent of a Chapter of whom you are not carrying the geneseed.

So if you have UM Geneseed, you are a UM Successor Chapter. If you have Fire Hawks geneseed, then you are a Fire Hawks Successor Chapter.

Of course, the UM are the Primogenitor Chapter for 60% of all current SM Chapters, so having UM geneseed and claiming emulation of/respect for the Fire Hawks is fine (though don't forget that this was a Chapter in good with the Ecclesiarchy and were the first Chapter to support Sebastian Thor... so they, unlike many SM Chapters, did worship the Emperor as a god).

As for the layout, if you are going by strict Codex Astartes rules, then each Company has a specified role and function, but if not, then you can do whatever you want, really.

Yea, I was wanting to be a Fire Hawk successor however if they're supposed Successors of the Ultramarines, would my Eternal Flame chapter be Ultramarines or Fire Hawks Successors? Or to just make it easier on my self would it just be easier to just say it's a UM successor and claim them to want to emulate the hawks. Also I found the spot in my codex Flinty thanks! I can't believe I missed it entirely.

It would depend on who's geneseed you're actually carrying. If they gathered Fire Hawks geneseed (prior to becoming LatD) and implanted it in some new Marines-to-Be, then you'd be a Fire Hawks Successor. If the FH are also Successors of the UM, then you have UM lineage, but are not based on their exact geneseed.

It seems that if you implant a First Founding Chapter's geneseed into a new Chapter, that geneseed then gets something in it or on it that makes the Successors of that new Chapter somehow not also Successors to the original Chapter.

Complicating matters here is the uncertainty of the primogenitors of the Fire Hawks. If they were known and recognized as being a UM Successor, then you could have UM geneseed and claim to be, like, Fire Hawks v2 or something, and it would be fine, but if the FH are not UM Successors, then it gets weird as you're pretending to be akin to a Chapter that was pretending to be descended from another Chapter when it turns out it was an Alpha Legion plot all along or something.

End of the day, I would go with the UM geneseed and claim to be following the style and combat doctrine of the Fire Hawks. That way, even if FH end up not being UM Successors, you can still justify using UM Chapter Tactics, ICs, and all that stuff.

 Psienesis wrote:
It would depend on who's geneseed you're actually carrying. If they gathered Fire Hawks geneseed (prior to becoming LatD) and implanted it in some new Marines-to-Be, then you'd be a Fire Hawks Successor. If the FH are also Successors of the UM, then you have UM lineage, but are not based on their exact geneseed.

It seems that if you implant a First Founding Chapter's geneseed into a new Chapter, that geneseed then gets something in it or on it that makes the Successors of that new Chapter somehow not also Successors to the original Chapter.

Complicating matters here is the uncertainty of the primogenitors of the Fire Hawks. If they were known and recognized as being a UM Successor, then you could have UM geneseed and claim to be, like, Fire Hawks v2 or something, and it would be fine, but if the FH are not UM Successors, then it gets weird as you're pretending to be akin to a Chapter that was pretending to be descended from another Chapter when it turns out it was an Alpha Legion plot all along or something.

End of the day, I would go with the UM geneseed and claim to be following the style and combat doctrine of the Fire Hawks. That way, even if FH end up not being UM Successors, you can still justify using UM Chapter Tactics, ICs, and all that stuff.

Thanks, this was what I was thinking just now. However I did look up a few things, Some people say they are a Cursed Founding chapter, and if they're gene-seed was tainted that could be why The UM deny kinship with them, another theory is also that maybe they come from Emperor's Children gene-seed though from what I read it's really just alot of circumstantial evidence. Either way it just sounds easier to claim UM gene-seed and say that they wish to emulate them. Also what colors do you think the name Eternal Flame bring to mind? I'm still trying to visualize my color scheme.

I'm digging that chapter name.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:
I'm digging that chapter name.

haha the video wouldn't play for me since it said it's not available in my country but I searched for it anyway and I was able to watch it. Song is interesting, though not exactly Space Marine-ish. I chose Eternal Flame because since they are emulating Fire Hawks, which to me invoke images of a phoenix, and well phoenix's never truly die do they? Also because they go to light the flames of war in Humanity's and the Emperor's name. I think for my symbol, since I am claiming them to be Ultramarines Successors; that a fire like icon with the Ultramarine U in the center of it with a small head of a hawk above it which would symbolize their heritage and respect for the hawks/UM.

Eternal Flame sounds good to me. I don't see a problem with a Fire Hawks successor - you can always just use UM tactics if you opponents disallow the Forge World ones.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eternal Flame sounds good to me. I don't see a problem with a Fire Hawks successor - you can always just use UM tactics if you opponents disallow the Forge World ones.

Very true, I mean heck Fire Hawks tactics aren't even really all that broken. I may use salamanders though with the emphasis of flamers in my list though.

 Cptskillet wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Eternal Flame sounds good to me. I don't see a problem with a Fire Hawks successor - you can always just use UM tactics if you opponents disallow the Forge World ones.

Very true, I mean heck Fire Hawks tactics aren't even really all that broken. I may use salamanders though with the emphasis of flamers in my list though.

Just because your Chapter is descended from one SM Chapter doesn't mean you can't employ tactics from another (as long as you are consistent.) Say your chapter is descended from the Fire Hawks. Its a lot easier than saying you want to emulate them. Just say your chapter was created well prior to the disappearance of the Fire Hawks. Your guys like fire? Go with Salamander Chapter Tactics. As long as you use the same Chapter Tactic every game, people shouldn't have an issue. Where you would run into problems would be if you swapped Chapter Tactics every game to suit your army list.

But pretty much, there is nothing wrong with saying "These are my guys; they are descended from the Fire Hawks. Since nobody is really sure who the Fire Hawks are descended from, my guys use Salamander Chapter Tactics to reflect just how much they love fire."

Saying that you are UM descended, but you grok the Fire Hawks and want to be like them just makes things more complicated than they need to be.

A friend of mine uses Fire Hawks and is painting them as Fire Hawks. They are fun. His alpha strike is pretty nasty (Heavy Flamers on his Sternguard when they exit those drop pods especially) but it's not any nastier than facing White Scars biker spam or the almost-sort-of Twin-Linkage boltgun spam with scoring Sternguard of a good Imperial Fist list.

I don't beat him in scoring games, though. His assault/vanguard spammage is pretty serious. You've got the potential of 24 scoring units on the table with that army if you really wanted to, which is just nuts. (6 tacticals, 3 assault, 3 vanguard, all who combat squad.) And Elam Courbray is really cool and has a really cool warlord trait that isn't broken because as powerful as it is, it'd mean he'd be the only HQ in the whole army as he's only Ld9.

 SRSFACE wrote:
A friend of mine uses Fire Hawks and is painting them as Fire Hawks. They are fun. His alpha strike is pretty nasty (Heavy Flamers on his Sternguard when they exit those drop pods especially) but it's not any nastier than facing White Scars biker spam or the almost-sort-of Twin-Linkage boltgun spam with scoring Sternguard of a good Imperial Fist list.

I don't beat him in scoring games, though. His assault/vanguard spammage is pretty serious. You've got the potential of 24 scoring units on the table with that army if you really wanted to, which is just nuts. (6 tacticals, 3 assault, 3 vanguard, all who combat squad.) And Elam Courbray is really cool and has a really cool warlord trait that isn't broken because as powerful as it is, it'd mean he'd be the only HQ in the whole army as he's only Ld9.

Could have 2 hq's yea? him as the warlord and 1 chapter master if I so wanted to.

 Cptskillet wrote:
Could have 2 hq's yea? him as the warlord and 1 chapter master if I so wanted to.

The highest-LD character from your primary detachment is automatically the warlord. Since pretty much every other C:SM character is LD 10 if you take a second HQ then they would automatically become the warlord and you would lose the special character's awesome warlord trait.

A new Chapter is usually formed on orders from the High Lords of Terra, using geneseed stock from the tithes to Mars. I don't see why anyone would tell the marines through what line it came, just that it's Ultramarine heritage, Imperial Fist stock and so on. The AdMech know it ofc as they receive tithes from each Chapter, but why bother pointing out that particular one?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Cptskillet wrote:
Could have 2 hq's yea? him as the warlord and 1 chapter master if I so wanted to.

The highest-LD character from your primary detachment is automatically the warlord. Since pretty much every other C:SM character is LD 10 if you take a second HQ then they would automatically become the warlord and you would lose the special character's awesome warlord trait.

Damn, I had no idea about this rule. Well then. I really do like his traits, and are the basis around my 1850pt list that I made. Scoring Assault and Vanguard Vets are awesome! Though now with this whole conundrum I'll have to drop my Chapter-Master to make it work. Least it frees up 245 pts for me >.>

Spetulhu wrote:
A new Chapter is usually formed on orders from the High Lords of Terra, using geneseed stock from the tithes to Mars. I don't see why anyone would tell the marines through what line it came, just that it's Ultramarine heritage, Imperial Fist stock and so on. The AdMech know it ofc as they receive tithes from each Chapter, but why bother pointing out that particular one?

I've decided to just use them as Fire Hawk Successors, I'll think up something fluff-wise as to how they got some of their gene-seed since all the hawks are now dead/LotD. Could just say that they had some in stock or something yea?

The progenitors of the Fire Hawks are unknown. They were such hotheads that while they claimed Guilliman to be the progenitor, the Ultramarines were like "We don't want to be associated with you jerks."

There is no "Fire Hawks" gene seed, technically. All the gene seeds go back to one of the primarchs, somewhere along the way. It's entirely a fluff thing and has no impact on gameplay so if you want to say they have a gene seed that can be traced by to Corvus Corax or Guilliman or even one of the traitor primarchs, no one should really care or bother you about it. Whatever you feel is most interesting, do that. It's your 40k. Make it suit your desires.

I've decided to just use them as Fire Hawk Successors, I'll think up something fluff-wise as to how they got some of their gene-seed since all the hawks are now dead/LotD. Could just say that they had some in stock or something yea?

 SRSFACE wrote:
The progenitors of the Fire Hawks are unknown. They were such hotheads that while they claimed Guilliman to be the progenitor, the Ultramarines were like "We don't want to be associated with you jerks."

There is no "Fire Hawks" gene seed, technically. All the gene seeds go back to one of the primarchs, somewhere along the way. It's entirely a fluff thing and has no impact on gameplay so if you want to say they have a gene seed that can be traced by to Corvus Corax or Guilliman or even one of the traitor primarchs, no one should really care or bother you about it. Whatever you feel is most interesting, do that. It's your 40k. Make it suit your desires.

I understand you completely now. I could say they're gene-seed could be from Leman Russ himself, since no one knows where the hawks got theirs from correct? Thanks, this cleared up a bunch! For some reason I had it stuck in my head that the hawks had their own gene-seed but then there would have to have been a fire hawk primarch, which there isnt.

Well, the Cursed Founding chapters do have some unique gene seed, because of the experiments that cursed them - which arose from attempting hybridisation between existing primarchial gene seeds.

That said, chapter tactics has very little to do with the gene-seed, and everything to do with the way the chapter favours waging war. The reason successor chapters use the same tactics as their progenitor chapter by default is because they tend to be trained by veterans from the primogenitor chapter, which then impart the same teachings of warfare. For clear counter-examples, look at the Black Templars compared to the Imperial Fists and the Mantis Warriors compared to the White Scars.

The BT, however, are a Second Founding Chapter, which means that, at the time of their Founding, they *were* IF Veterans.

 Psienesis wrote:
The BT, however, are a Second Founding Chapter, which means that, at the time of their Founding, they *were* IF Veterans.

So the first members of Black Templar were just Fists in black armor?

 Cptskillet wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The BT, however, are a Second Founding Chapter, which means that, at the time of their Founding, they *were* IF Veterans.

So the first members of Black Templar were just Fists in black armor?

Yes. They were the members of the Imperial Fists Legion that, due to their zeal, would never agree to follow the Codex Astartes. Thus, all of these hotheads were split off from the Legion and made into the Black Templars, and have, in the 10,000 years since, continued the Great Crusade, that is, bringing the galaxy under the control of the Imperium of Man, free of Xenos and Warp-spawned witchery.

Just a quick cool idea:
Field a bunch of Legion of the Damned, you could say that the Fire Hawks are supporting and protecting their own gene-stock, and nurturing those who succeeded over themselves

Also, PM me, my friend and I are converting whatshisface (the Chapter Master of the Fire Hawks) and I'd love to share the model with you :3
He's made of loads of bits xD All we need to do now is get the Lord Executioner model, I'm using the body for the Executioners Chaplain SC and he's using the Jump Pack for the Fire Hawks guy :3

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Just a quick cool idea:
Field a bunch of Legion of the Damned, you could say that the Fire Hawks are supporting and protecting their own gene-stock, and nurturing those who succeeded over themselves

Also, PM me, my friend and I are converting whatshisface (the Chapter Master of the Fire Hawks) and I'd love to share the model with you :3
He's made of loads of bits xD All we need to do now is get the Lord Executioner model, I'm using the body for the Executioners Chaplain SC and he's using the Jump Pack for the Fire Hawks guy :3

Sounds cool to me and also I did this as a color scheme for my chapter. I'm basing it off of that my chapter is assuming the lotd are missing firehawks, and being a successor of firehawks, they are paying respects to them in their color scheme. pretty good eh? and also I pm'd brotherofbone. and actually i did make a list with lotd here


Army list:
Fire Hawks Chapter Tactics
HQ: (Warlord) Knight-Captain Elam Bourbray - 185pts
Troops:
Scouts- Sniper rifle, camo cloaks- 70pts
Scouts- Sniper rifle, camo cloaks- 70pts
Tactical Squad- lascannon, vet chainsword, razorback (lascannon) - 145pts
Tactical Squad- lascannon, vet chainsword, razorback(lascannon)- 145pts
Elites:
Vanguard Veterans- x3power weapons, Thunderhammer, x5 stormshield, 5x jumpacks- 235pts
Vanguard Veterans-x3 power weapons, Thunderhammer, x5 stormshield, 5x jumpacks- 235pts
Legion of the Damned- x5 Legionairs, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, power weapon- 280pts
Fast attack:
Assault Marines- x2 flamer, power weapon, combat shield- 115pts
Assault Marines- x2 flamer, power weapon, combat shield- 115pts
Heavy support:
Stormraven Gunship- Hurricane bolter sponsons, Extra armor- 235

and I am also excited with the codex:lotd that has been leaked. heres hoping we can use lotd elites slot from codex:sm, and ally in codex:lotd to get even more lotd!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not 100% sold on the color scheme, could be better, maybe any ideas?

I'd say maybe lose the bone as it just seems a little too much.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
I'd say maybe lose the bone as it just seems a little too much.

what would you recommend I change the bone to?

 Cptskillet wrote:

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
I'd say maybe lose the bone as it just seems a little too much.

what would you recommend I change the bone to?

I say keep the Bone, looks really nice to me. Its pops.

I like the bone as well. Maybe I'd go all red or black? still workng on it.

I just chose the bone as it was the least used colour, and I felt that there was a bit too much going on for my liking.