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Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






1: It's specifically Melee weapons.
Only Melee Weapons have a One-Handed and Two-Handed designations, and you require two models with the Melee Rule for the +1.

2: In the specific example given in the rulebook directly following the rule, it states that Tactical Marines with Bolters get 1 attack + 1 for charging.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 grendel083 wrote:
Did you read the section after "No Specified Melee Weapons"?

It's called "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons".
From that section "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon" it then goes on to give it a profile for close combat. This isn't restricted to the assault phase either. So at all times a model with a pistol has a Specified Close Combat Weapon.

I have no idea what relevance that holds to the current topic, as the current topic does not even revolve around pistols anymore.
But, yes I did read it.

 Ovion wrote:
1: It's specifically Melee weapons.
Only Melee Weapons have a One-Handed and Two-Handed designations, and you require two models with the Melee Rule for the +1.

2: In the specific example given in the rulebook directly following the rule, it states that Tactical Marines with Bolters get 1 attack + 1 for charging.

1. I feel that has already be covered. Multiple times. If what you say is true I would love to see page numbers confirming your text.
2. That only an example and should not be treated as rule. But, it is listed as "a unit of five space marines" which are assumed to be from a tactical squad. However, it does not specify it being a standard unit of five space marines. Which leave room to conjure that those marines perhaps have a special rule that inhibits them from taking the +1. They are just noted to have boltguns, so do they even have power armour on?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 01:33:17


 
   
Made in us
Calm Celestian




Florida, USA

majortwitch wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
Did you read the section after "No Specified Melee Weapons"?

It's called "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons".
From that section "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon" it then goes on to give it a profile for close combat. This isn't restricted to the assault phase either. So at all times a model with a pistol has a Specified Close Combat Weapon.

I have no idea what relevance that holds to the current topic, as the current topic does not even revolve around pistols anymore.
But, yes I did read it.

 Ovion wrote:
1: It's specifically Melee weapons.
Only Melee Weapons have a One-Handed and Two-Handed designations, and you require two models with the Melee Rule for the +1.

2: In the specific example given in the rulebook directly following the rule, it states that Tactical Marines with Bolters get 1 attack + 1 for charging.

1. I feel that has already be covered. Multiple times. If what you say is true I would love to see page numbers confirming your text.
2. That only an example and should not be treated as rule. But, it is listed as "a unit of five space marines" which are assumed to be from a tactical squad. However, it does not specify it being a standard unit of five space marines. Which leave room to conjure that those marines perhaps have a special rule that inhibits them from taking the +1. They are just noted to have boltguns, so do they even have power armour on?
You stopped reading too soon:
BRB, pg. 24 wrote:Alternatively, a unit of five Orks with two Melee weapons rolls fifteen dice (2 Attacks on their profile +1 for two weapons = 3 each). If they were charging, however, they would roll twenty (2 Attacks on their profile +1 for assaulting+ 1 for two weapons = 4 each!).
Emphasis mine. The "reminder" text makes it quite clear that one needs two melee weapons to qualify for the additional attack bonus.

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Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

majortwitch wrote:
TYPE: A shooting weapon always has one of the following types: Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Pistol, Rapid Fire or Salvo. These rules (found on the next two pages) measure a weapon's portability and affect the way they can be fired, depending whether or not the model carrying them moved that turn. A shooting weapon can only be used to make Shooting attacks.

The boltgun, or any other gun, isn't being used to make the extra attack. It is there to qualify for the second attack.

Except you need two melee weapons to qualify for the +1 attack.

Cite rules that tell us that a boltgun is a melee weapon and you have a case, but as of right now you have nothing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 10:07:59


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Canberra, Down Under

 grendel083 wrote:
Did you read the section after "No Specified Melee Weapons"?

It's called "Pistols as Close Combat Weapons".
From that section "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon" it then goes on to give it a profile for close combat. This isn't restricted to the assault phase either. So at all times a model with a pistol has a Specified Close Combat Weapon.


Exactly as Grendel said here.

I'm so confused how this is even an argument.

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Liverpool

 DeathReaper wrote:
Cite rules that tell us that a boltgun is a melee weapon and you have a case
If he can do that he has a specified close combat weapon (no again no bonus as pistols have been taken out of the equation).

Still claiming the x2 melee weapon bonus with no melee weapons is right up top of the list for outrageous rules arguements.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






What major twitch has been trying to explain to you all is that there is an unintended error or "Loop hole" in the rule set.

The section on page 24 never mentions a MELEE weapon (SO STOP SAYING IT DOES)

The walker rule says MELEE weapon, So guess what they don't get extra attack from Lascannons. But a Necron can get an extra attack from a bug zapper if its listed in a weapons section, and doesn't specify two handed.

you all need to get the past 10 years of rules out of you head and read the page.

In 3rd edition there was two handed and one handed ranged and melee weapons THIS is no longer the case.

They wrote a crappy rule set that doesn't define One handed weapons. and doesn't restrict guns from earning a model extra attacks.

The rule on page 51 has nothing nothing to do with a guy attacking with a bolt gun or assblaster cannon.
In ranged weapon rules, It states they cannot be used to attack. Thats it its over no attacking with guns. This ushers in caveat 6. the HEY if you dont have a knife you get one free rule.

This all said you dont even need a a knife. I necron carring an (assblaster cannon) and a (Poop launcher sling shot) gets an extra attack, but cannot actual attack, unless we once again usher in Caveat 6. Use the knife we didnt give you and kill those orc bastards

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 02:32:00


 
   
Made in us
Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

Two-attack Boltgunner wrote:


What major twitch has been trying to explain to you all is that there is an unintended error or "Loop hole" in the rule set.

The section on page 24 never mentions a MELEE weapon (SO STOP SAYING IT DOES)




Yes it does. TWICE! (My capslock works too!)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 02:32:22


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Liverpool

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Two-attack Boltgunner wrote:


What major twitch has been trying to explain to you all is that there is an unintended error or "Loop hole" in the rule set.

The section on page 24 never mentions a MELEE weapon (SO STOP SAYING IT DOES)
Yes it does. TWICE! (My capslock works too!)

There are two clear examples within the Assault section showing this interpretation is wrong.

Id like to add a third:


BRB Chapter 3 "More than one Weapon wrote:if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 Attack in close combat.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 02:33:59


 
   
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 grendel083 wrote:
Now there are two clear examples within the Assault section showing this interpretation is wrong.
Can you explain those without resorting to petty insults?


No, that is my friend (if you thought it was me). We are in skype being amused at the lack understanding presented by most people posting here. I brought him by to make sure I just was not being slowed.
   
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Can anyone quote for me a page which defines 'Single Handed Weapons?'

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Liverpool

majortwitch wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
Now there are two clear examples within the Assault section showing this interpretation is wrong.
Can you explain those without resorting to petty insults?
No, that is my friend (if you thought it was me). We are in skype being amused at the lack understanding presented by most people posting here. I brought him by to make sure I just was not being slowed.
Might want to check who you're replying to, think you got the wrong quote there.

So we're ignoring examples, and the several instances where "melee" are stated?
BRB Chapter 3 "More than one Weapon wrote:if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +1 Attack in close combat.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 02:41:19


 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

majortwitch wrote:
 grendel083 wrote:
Now there are two clear examples within the Assault section showing this interpretation is wrong.
Can you explain those without resorting to petty insults?


No, that is my friend (if you thought it was me). We are in skype being amused at the lack understanding presented by most people posting here. I brought him by to make sure I just was not being slowed.


Well, I've had to give your friend an immediate suspension because his first two posts ever out of the gate were completely insulting for no apparent reason.

Everyone else: please do not respond to petty insults with insults of your own. There is no reason that a discussion about rules needs to include insults.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 02:42:10


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Nashville, TN

JinxDragon wrote:
Can anyone quote for me a page which defines 'Single Handed Weapons?'


Doesn't matter since you may only use Melee Weapons in close combat.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 02:46:30


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 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

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Under the couch

majortwitch wrote:
Bolt pistols and boltguns have no special rule of two handed, so therefore both are able to used in a single hand.

You're making an illogical leap here that having a special rule detailing which weapons are two-handed somehow makes single-handed the default.

If I like cookies that have chocolate cream centres, or that have vanilla cream centres, and only one specific cookie in the supermarket has chocolate cream centres, that doesn't mean that every other cookie has vanilla cream. Some might not have cream at all.


The thing here is that some weapons are specifically listed as being two-handed because that makes a difference to how they function. Most other weapons in the game simply aren't given a number of hands designation at all, because it isn't necessary. So a bolter isn't one-handed, because it is never defined as such. It's just a bolter.

In order to be used in close combat, the weapon would either have to be defined as a melee weapon (strictest reading) or by the looser reading at the least be defined as single-handed.




 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
JinxDragon wrote:
Can anyone quote for me a page which defines 'Single Handed Weapons?'
Doesn't matter since you may only use Melee Weapons in close combat.
It is relevent, as the rule being use to gain +1 attacks requires that these weapons be single-handed.
As there are no single-handed weapons listed in the game you will never be able to claim this bonus.
However later in the Weapons section is a rule allowing you to claim a bonus for two melee weapons (no single-handed requirement, but a melee requirement this time).

An Ork Big Choppa has the rule "Two-Handed"
Does a Bolter have "Single-Handed" listed in its rules? If no then it can't qualify.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/07 03:01:38


 
   
Made in us
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 insaniak wrote:
majortwitch wrote:
Bolt pistols and boltguns have no special rule of two handed, so therefore both are able to used in a single hand.

You're making an illogical leap here that having a special rule detailing which weapons are two-handed somehow makes single-handed the default.

If I like cookies that have chocolate cream centres, or that have vanilla cream centres, and only one specific cookie in the supermarket has chocolate cream centres, that doesn't mean that every other cookie has vanilla cream. Some might not have cream at all.


Not sure how you find that to be illogical. Two-handed weapons are two-handed weapons, yes? Weapons without the two-handed special rule are not two-handed. So what does that leave pistols, boltguns, and lascannons as? Single-handed, three-handed the rules are simply unclear about the handiness of most weapons. But it would be the most logical to assume that they are in fact single-handed. Does three-handed make sense for boltgun, it cannot be two-handed as two-handed are clearly defined.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 03:03:58


 
   
Made in im
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Liverpool

majortwitch wrote:
Weapons without the two-handed special rule are not two-handed.
Doesn't necessarily mean they're Single-Handed weapons. Any rule to support the claim?

So what does that leave pistols, boltguns, and lascannons as? Single-handed, three-handed the rules are simply unclear about the handiness of most weapons. But it would be the most logical to assume that they are in fact single-handed. Does three-handed make sense for boltgun, it cannot be two-handed as two-handed are clearly defined.
So your entire argument is based on assumption? How is that more valid than the rules examples you've chosen to ignore?
   
Made in us
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Nashville, TN

Oranges are Oranges. Apples are not Oranges. Grapes are not Oranges.Grapes must be Apples.

That's your failed logic. It is a leap to assume weapons that are not two-handed are one-handed.

"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Grendel083,
Thank you for saving me the trouble of explaining that line of reasoning.

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
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Making Stuff






Under the couch

majortwitch wrote:
Not sure how you find that to be illogical.

It's illogical because you are making an assumption (that weapons that are not two-handed must be one-handed) based on the premise that there are only these two possible states... something that is not actually backed up by the rules.


Two-handed weapons are two-handed weapons, yes? Weapons without the two-handed special rule are not two-handed. So what does that leave pistols, boltguns, and lascannons as? Single-handed, three-handed the rules are simply unclear about the handiness of most weapons.

The rules are unclear because there is simply no need for them to be specific here. If the weapon has the 'melee' attribute, it can be used in close combat. Being two-handed has some special effects on that.

If the weapon is not a melee weapon, and isn't specifically defined as one-handed, then it doesn't matter how many hands are required to weild it... because that only matters for close combat, which the weapon can't be used for.


Does three-handed make sense for boltgun, it cannot be two-handed as two-handed are clearly defined.

Three-handed wouldn't make any sense, no. But again, you are assuming that 'handedness' must be defined when this is simply not the case.

 
   
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Nashville, TN

Bleh. The rules are clear.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 03:25:54


"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 insaniak wrote:
It's illogical because you are making an assumption (that weapons that are not two-handed must be one-handed) based on the premise that there are only these two possible states... something that is not actually backed up by the rules.

To be fair haven't seen much rule citing from you. Also saying that not two-handed is not single handed, most melee are what for handiness, that is not stated anywhere? What is handiness for a lightning claw? How did you determine that? They are undefined, yet are default to single-handed as single-handed is required to qualify for the +1 attack.
If nothing else, in older editions there was only two states for weapons two-handed or one-handed. That causes me to believe they would default one-hand as that is only states two that has existed in the game before for handiness.
 insaniak wrote:
The rules are unclear because there is simply no need for them to be specific here. If the weapon has the 'melee' attribute, it can be used in close combat. Being two-handed has some special effects on that.

Thank you, for demonstrating your ability to read and analyze previous posts.
 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Ahhh.... the old "oops I'm wrong so I'll cleverly start arguing the other way and hope nobody notices." trick.

You demean yourself, sir!
   
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Catskills in NYS

majortwitch wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
It's illogical because you are making an assumption (that weapons that are not two-handed must be one-handed) based on the premise that there are only these two possible states... something that is not actually backed up by the rules.

To be fair haven't seen much rule citing from you. Also saying that not two-handed is not single handed, most melee are what for handiness, that is not stated anywhere? What is handiness for a lightning claw? How did you determine that? They are undefined, yet are default to single-handed as single-handed is required to qualify for the +1 attack.
If nothing else, in older editions there was only two states for weapons two-handed or one-handed. That causes me to believe they would default one-hand as that is only states two that has existed in the game before for handiness.
 insaniak wrote:
The rules are unclear because there is simply no need for them to be specific here. If the weapon has the 'melee' attribute, it can be used in close combat. Being two-handed has some special effects on that.

Thank you, for demonstrating your ability to read and analyze previous posts.
 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Ahhh.... the old "oops I'm wrong so I'll cleverly start arguing the other way and hope nobody notices." trick.

You demean yourself, sir!

How about this, only pistol weapons and weapons with the melee special rule are closed combat weapons. That's what they rules are.

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you can't make the assumption that if it's not two handed, it HAS to be one-handed. All logic aside, the weapon does not state it has the One-Handed special rule, therefor it doesn't. Pistols are given specific permission to be used as melee weapons, so they would grant a bonus attack with a second melee weapon. Bolters and lascannons don't have any mention to being one-handed or melee because within the bounds of the rules they are not.

Also, simply because it says "often a melee and or pistol" does not mean that because it's vague, it's inclusive of other weapons that are never listed. it's an example of the most common combination that grants you the bonus attack. You still need to have legal weapons that conform to all the games rules.


   
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Chicago, IL

pyre wrote:
you can't make the assumption that if it's not two handed, it HAS to be one-handed.

To be fair the rules make that assumption.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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majortwitch wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
It's illogical because you are making an assumption (that weapons that are not two-handed must be one-handed) based on the premise that there are only these two possible states... something that is not actually backed up by the rules.

To be fair haven't seen much rule citing from you. Also saying that not two-handed is not single handed, most melee are what for handiness, that is not stated anywhere? What is handiness for a lightning claw? How did you determine that? They are undefined, yet are default to single-handed as single-handed is required to qualify for the +1 attack.

Incorrect. Being a Melee weapon qualifies for the +1 attack.
If nothing else, in older editions there was only two states for weapons two-handed or one-handed. That causes me to believe they would default one-hand as that is only states two that has existed in the game before for handiness.

Old editions are old and have less than zero basis on current editions. Things change, sometimes significantly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
pyre wrote:
you can't make the assumption that if it's not two handed, it HAS to be one-handed.

To be fair the rules make that assumption.

Citation required.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 04:09:45


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majortwitch wrote:
Also saying that not two-handed is not single handed, most melee are what for handiness, that is not stated anywhere?

Nor is it stated anywhere that anything that isn't two-handed is single-handed. Which is what you would actually need for this to be true.

There is no rule to cite that says that weapons that aren't two-handed don't have to be single handed. What there is, is a complete lack of anything in the rules that says that weapons must be one or the other.


What is handiness for a lightning claw? How did you determine that?

You don't determine it, because it doesn't matter. It's not two-handed, because it doesn't have the two-handed rule, and it's a melee weapon. That's all you need to know. The Close Combat weapon rules on page 51 tell us that having two melee weapons grants the +1.

Page 24 does grant a bnous for having two single-handed weapons... but that can only apply to weapons that are defined as single-handed.



If nothing else, in older editions there was only two states for weapons two-handed or one-handed.

Some older editions also had a movement stat for each model. That has no bearing on the current rules.

 
   
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Mind blown.

I am almost at a loss. I have brought three other people to read the thread, two them didn't even know a thing about warhammer. For everything presented they ended up seeing the rules ways that I do. One of them was dumbfounded by the insubstantiality of many of the counter arguments. This is just silliness, people want rules cited (which I tried in earnest to do - albeit I am not perfect) but don't cite rules themselves or if they do only parts of a rule without context. There was real discussion at one point now, it just circular arguments over things that have been covered. If you are going to see rules as intended and not as written, please, and I do mean please, enjoy your close mindedness. Other than have an excellent rest of the day or night!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/07 06:10:05


 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

majortwitch wrote:
Mind blown.

I am almost at a loss. I have brought three other people to read the thread, two them didn't even know a thing about warhammer. For everything presented they ended up seeing the rules ways that I do. One of them was dumbfounded by the insubstantiality of many of the counter arguments. This is just silliness, people want rules cited (witch I tried in earnest to do - albeit I am not perfect) but don't cite rules themselves or if they do only parts of a rule without context. There was real discussion at one point now, it just circular arguments over things that have been covered. If you are going to see rules as intended and not as written, please, and I do mean please, enjoy your close mindedness. Other than have an excellent rest of the day or night!


You do know that by the pure 'raw' there are no weapons defined as being single-handed, correct? So by the RAW, you can never claim to be wielding two single-handed weapons and therefore never claim the +1A bonus for wielding two single-handed weapons.

So in your original post:

Bolt pistol, that is a second close combat weapon that is one handed. Seems to me that is +1 attacks.


You have made a leap supported by the rules that both the bolt pistol and the free close combat weapon you get are both single-handed, when the rules never specify that either of them are.


So no matter how you slice it, you're not talking about playing by the RAW, you're making assumptions and playing as you think the designers 'intended it' to be (that weapons not specified as being two-handed are single-handed).


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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