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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 01:18:25
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Dakka Veteran
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edlowe wrote:
Im going to have to see about picking up some exisiting minis, anybody know who's the best uk stockist?
http://www.artemisblacks.com/redbox.shtml
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 01:20:19
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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[DCM]
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I think 5/6 and 15/20 might be the 'skirmish' and 'army' levels though...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 02:16:24
Subject: Re:Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran
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Saw the lizard.
I'm down.
Give me a pile please.
Hope we'll get a few that have learned to wear armor as well. Hope there will be some bigger reptilians lurking in the shadows as well.
Armored dinosaurs would pretty much make this the best kickstarter ever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 02:19:57
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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[DCM]
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I can't disagree with that!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 07:12:35
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Novice Knight Errant Pilot
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Thanks Czakk
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http://thelaughterofthedamned.blogspot.co.uk/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 08:31:42
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Regular Dakkanaut
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tre manor wrote:
Thanks Da Boss, and yes that is for the feedback as well as the confidence.
There will be a pledge level to buy all three factions starter sets and all three faction army sets. I am thinkign that there will be a pledge level for each different faction starter and then a pledge level for each faction army set and then a pledge level for all three starters and all three army sets.
I will try to get a pic of one of the barbarians up sometime this week.
Morlocks.......probably nto morlocks btu cool none the less. 
I think it would be a good idea to have also the option of buying two starter and army sets and choose between the three available. So if someone would just like try the game by picking two forces, he would have the option.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 14:45:56
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Dakka Veteran
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Well when I say " army " i do not really mean " army ". And when I said 15 figures maximum per side per game, that was probabyl a little hasty.
The idea that I have right now is that this game can be played between 2 players running 5 - 25 models each. 25 models each would be a HUGE game but bear in mind that there are horde factions which field larger numbers of models for less points.
I am still working out the balance but a sample low point value force might look like;
Undead-
Necromancer (1 )
Cultist Acolytes ( 2 )
LEsser Undead warrior Minions ( 6)
Barbarian-
Barbarian Warrior Priestess ( 1 )
Barbarian Warrior Minions ( 4 )
Barbarian Javlineer Minions ( 2 )
Amazon-
Amazon priestess ( 1 )
Lizardman Warrior Minions ( 3 )
Amazon Archer Minions ( 3 )
This would also be a good example of the starter set composition. The pricing of these is still a bit of an uncertain issue.
A high point value game might look like;
Undead-
Necromancer ( 3 )
Cultists ( 6 )
Lesser Undead ( 18 )
Liche Warrior Minions ( 3 )
Liche Warrior Champion ( 1 )
Greater Demon Minion ( 1-2 ) *
Barbarian-
BArbarian Warrior Priestess ( 1 )
Mounted BArbarian Warlord Champion( 1 ) **
BArbarian Warrior Hero ( 1 )
Barbarian Warrior Hero Warp State (1 ) *
Barbarian Warrior Minions ( 6 )
Barbarian Javlineer Minions ( 2 )
Barbarian Warp State minions ( 2 ) *
War Beast Minions ( 2 )
Amazon-
Amazon PRiestess ( 1 )
Mounted Amazon Warrior Champion ( 1 ) **
Lizardman Brute minions ( 2 )
Lizardman Warrior Minions ( 6 )
Amazon Archer hero ( 1 )
Amazon Archer Minions ( 4 )
Elemental minions ( 1-3 ) *
** Riding and afoot rules
* summoned / generated in the course of play under specific rules.
And that would be a good example of an " army " set.
The exact composition of the forces can be very different of course depending upon your strategic style or preferences. For instance you could field an additional 2 javlineers and 2 warrior minions in the high point barbarian army instead of the mounted warlord. Or you could field two mounted warlords and 6 warrior minions total. The way I am planning the KS is that the starter sets will be the first funding goal. Then the next stretches will unlock one hero per faction per stretch. After that the first special minions would go up and then after those the Champions would go up. And so on.
This way I figure that everyone gets a game ready force right out of the gate then gets to add on to it as they like over the rest of the campaign. If something does not fund then at least they won;t have an underpowered force. Each item funded will be offered as an add-on so if you want to buy 20 sets of the undead or barbarian warrior minions you can do so.
I am thinking that between now and the time that this launches i should be able to have all of the items listed above sculpted and most of them mastered as well.
the rules are still very much a WIP but I am trying to design this to be a very fast and fluid system while still maintainign a strong strategic play element.
Automatically Appended Next Post: sorry missed a few posts whilst writing that previous reply.
The lizardmen probably won't wear armour, well at least not metal armour. They will already have a natural armour rating and a few other nice special rules that make them especially formidable in melee and make armour less important. the lizardman shown is one of the " lesser " variety. There are older and larger ones that push these around.
There will also be an option to buy all three starters or armies or all four if it comes to that.
Armoured Dinosaurs... that WOULD be awesome, but would either be VERY costly per model in resin or be a VERY expensive stretch goal to get them in plastic. Who knows what is in store though.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/17 14:58:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/17 15:29:47
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran
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tre manor wrote:
the lizardman shown is one of the " lesser " variety. There are older and larger ones that push these around.
Armoured Dinosaurs... that WOULD be awesome, but would either be VERY costly per model in resin or be a VERY expensive stretch goal to get them in plastic. Who knows what is in store though.
Good enough for me! The lure of bigger and badder lizards is all I need.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 10:30:17
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Zealous Knight
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Sounds great. I'll repeat my previous question though (sorry  ): what whould we expect the starter sets to cost? And the Army sets?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 13:11:28
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Dakka Veteran
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I am not really sure yet. It will depend a lot on whether I go modular or not. It also depends on the composition of the starter set. I would like to keep everything as uniform as possible but obviously there are going to be different margins in cost so that complicates things.
Give me a little more time to noodle the pricing and I will get back to you.
I finished the Empirial's High Priest yesterday. I am thinkign more and more that this may be a five faction kickstarter campaign. Barbarians, Undead, Mutants, Amazons, Empirials.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 13:55:07
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Regular Dakkanaut
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tre manor wrote:I finished the Empirial's High Priest yesterday. I am thinkign more and more that this may be a five faction kickstarter campaign. Barbarians, Undead, Mutants, Amazons, Empirials.
This is great news!!!
Please consider to post a pic of the Empirials. I would be really interested in them.
Also I think it would be a good idea to give the option of any army and number combination in the kickastarter. I mean someone to be able to make any possible combination of any army between two, three, four or all five factions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 15:48:05
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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[DCM]
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I was hoping that it would be at least a 4 faction KS, but I'll take 5!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 16:23:25
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Bolognesus wrote:Sounds great. I'll repeat my previous question though (sorry  ): what whould we expect the starter sets to cost? And the Army sets?
Your question is very reasonable Bolognesus, but I think it would be polite to not press too hard on pricing at the moment.
Pricing is a complex issue that could lead to serious financial harm if it is miscalculated, and I expect it would suck to spitball a price that it later turns out is not economically viable. You know what I mean? Then you'd be in the rough position of having to either increase the price from what you estimated or take a loss on the product.
The previews have been pretty exciting so far! I'm looking forward to seeing something of the Barbarian and more of the Undead models.
As to modularity...I guess my tastes have been changing a little bit over time, but when it comes to metal miniatures, modularity is really not as much of a concern with me as getting a well-sculpted, characterful piece. I tend to do less converting with metal miniatures, and in small model count games, repeat poses usually aren't that big of a deal. That said, head swaps do a lot to add a bit of simple modularity to a miniature.
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Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 17:06:05
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Regular Dakkanaut
Yukon OK USA
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I agree with Weeble 1000 I don't care that much for minis coming in several pieces. I prefer single cast miniatures.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 17:35:21
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Novice Knight Errant Pilot
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Head and weapon swaps are normally fine for metal figs imho.
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http://thelaughterofthedamned.blogspot.co.uk/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 17:45:20
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Dakka Veteran
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Yep pricing is very tricky.
The way it will work if I decide to go whole hog and try to fund all five from the get go is that the first goal will fund the starter sets for the Undead and the BArbarians. The next goal will fund the Amazons starter, the next goal will fund the Empirials and then the next the mutants. Then each successive stretch will fund an add-on to each faction. The problem I keep runnign into there is the probability that the earlier factions will end up with more available than the later factions.
I won't be " gaming " the system with this KS. I am going to ask for exactly what I need to make the production and fulfillment happen, so the unlocks won't be too expensive ( far apart ) which should help move them faster but it is still a little scary committing to such a broad spate of products.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 17:50:32
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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tre manor wrote:
Yep pricing is very tricky.
The way it will work if I decide to go whole hog and try to fund all five from the get go is that the first goal will fund the starter sets for the Undead and the BArbarians. The next goal will fund the Amazons starter, the next goal will fund the Empirials and then the next the mutants. Then each successive stretch will fund an add-on to each faction. The problem I keep runnign into there is the probability that the earlier factions will end up with more available than the later factions.
I won't be " gaming " the system with this KS. I am going to ask for exactly what I need to make the production and fulfillment happen, so the unlocks won't be too expensive ( far apart ) which should help move them faster but it is still a little scary committing to such a broad spate of products.
Couldn't stretch goals award one small upgrade to every faction funded.
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Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 18:45:42
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Dakka Veteran
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you mean one stretch goal adding on to all currently funded factions?? It can if the value of the stretch goal covers the required costs. The problem there is that that only means that there is a larger gaps between goals being achieved which works against the psychology of the effort. It does not really make the goals happen more quickly.
For instance if the cost to produce a figure at the offered price is $5000.00 then for every figure in that goal milestone you need to make $5000.00. So to add five add-ons to a goal milestone you need to generate $25000.00.....which look sliek a REALLY high goal ( and it certainly is ) this will daunt potential backers because they have o garantee that their investment will pay off. Now if you divide that stretch goal into 5 individual $5000.00 goals suddenly you increase your chances of reaching that goal as the backers feel their investment is more likely to pay off than not. Even if not every backer is rewarded at the current stretch goal it is likely that enough of them will be to pass that goal and move on to the next.
I think that the key to success in any effort is to keep several smaller short term goals that are more easily achieved that all contribute to a much higher over all goal.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 18:58:14
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Novice Knight Errant Pilot
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Considering the above costs you're looking at 50k to fund two 5 sculpt warbands? Considering the cost of single sculpts it looks like modular figures would be the way to go. Would it be excessively expensive to do say a five head sprue or a muti weapon sprue with hands attached. Just curious really how these things work out. Always nice to hear a bit of the 'backgroubd' work that goes into figure casting.
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http://thelaughterofthedamned.blogspot.co.uk/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 19:10:37
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Zealous Knight
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Oh, I wasn't trying to push matters - I figured since a lot of figs seem to be sculpted, an indication might be in the cards.
Totally agree on modular models, with a low model count game, it's not really much of an issue.
One potential issue would be those 20ish undead in a large battle; I'd hate to only have 4 or 5 sculpts for those. OTOH, modular models for the most numerous of units might not be a good idea.
...Would the old lesser undead 'work' or am I totally off-base there? Been planning to get a set of those for ages now anyway.
As to number of factions, well: you'll know best, but I'd say there's a real risk of overextending and not getting enough momentum if you go with too many factions, too early.
Three well-rounded, internally diverse factions is good - they'll each feel like a finished, 'complete' product rather than something half-baked because we didn't quite meet all the stretches needed to make them sufficiently varied.
There's always the option of adding in a fourth and fifth faction later either via stretches on this KS - or just a second KS, when this one's done!
In any case, a KS with a lower, more manageable funding goal generally tends to do better and the diverse, more complete factions would, IMO, sell better as a product than five less complete ones.
You seem to emphasize not getting in over your head and generally approach this all very cautiously - which is good! - and then get very enthusiastic with additional factions and whatnot; great to see the enthusiasm, but I'd urge you to take the same generally conservative approach to the number of factions initially funded/expanded.
And again, sorry if I came across as too pushy
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 19:45:31
Subject: Re:Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran
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I'd be down for a few faction specific KS campaigns.
Obviously I'm going to want some Amazons, but that would mean waiting until the funding hits high enough for them to even unlock.
If it doesn't get high enough, what's to encourage me to pledge (other than being a nice guy and wanting to see this succeed)?
That might be a lot more headaches on your end though, managing multiple kickstarters, one after the other to get all the factions funded. We might see fatigue start to set in.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 20:19:03
Subject: Re:Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Couple suggestions/observations:
- Remember why your last KS was only six minis. It's great that you're fired up creatively by this project, but businesswise it's way too early to take any risks with KS. Three factions is plenty to start with.
- I don't think going modular is worth it on metal minis, especially in light of the costly problems you've had with it before. Perhaps you can design single-part metals with an eye to conversion? So that people who are so inclined can easily cut off and swap around hands or heads or what have you.
- It seems like all your recent sculpts are in wide stances, and while that's fine for individual minis I'd prefer to see some variation in the range.
- Speaking of, it's always a good time for more gender and ethnic diversity.
Personally I'm more into costumes than human anatomy, so this range isn't really my thing. Still, it's high quality, creative and presumably good value for money, so I might still be in for the KS. (Depending on how international shipping works out.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 20:20:09
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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[DCM]
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I think the undead should have a model that's called a Wight.
Just because I've always thought that was a cool undead thing and name, and seems to be shamefully underused as well...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 21:20:39
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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I think you'd do better to offer stretches for each faction, rather than two totally unlocked factions and several locked. It would give everyone something to look forward to, and not leave people pledging for something that might not exist (which happened previously).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 21:31:17
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Plastictrees
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Tre, I'd go back and read your own concerns in this thread about getting too excited and overdoing things.'
I think three factions is great for the first KS. It lets you offer single mini stretches at reasonable intervals that won't put off fans of the faction whose stretch isn't "next". It lets you control things and means you have a ton of stuff in the bag for KS2.
It might also mean that you can have some really neat stretch goals ready to go for those three factions rather than barely covering 5-6 factions equally for the same amount of money.
As a supporter I can see myself buying four factions over two KSs, I wouldn't be buying four factions in one KS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 21:37:17
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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Agreed- 3 factions is something I can save for, then spend on, in a reasonable amount of time. If it's 5 factions, it's unlikely that I'll be able to afford all of them, and I think long term you'll make less money off of me
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 22:09:58
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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[DCM]
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I'm here to say that I'll probably be in for all 5.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 22:16:01
Subject: Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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Yes, but that's exactly the issue with previous campaigns- more races were listed than it was started with, and stretch goals were used to achieve them... but if people pledge with the hope of of mutants and they don't unlock, then there's a risk they'll drop out / etc.
Referring to this quote:
tre manor wrote: The way it will work if I decide to go whole hog and try to fund all five from the get go is that the first goal will fund the starter sets for the Undead and the BArbarians. The next goal will fund the Amazons starter, the next goal will fund the Empirials and then the next the mutants. Then each successive stretch will fund an add-on to each faction.
Again, this is exactly what happened with the second KS (before the re-launch)... tons of stuff was listed, but it wasn't all "unlocked". But if you list it, people will pledge for it... and if it doesn't unlock, you've got issues!
Better to fund either a smaller set of each faction, and then add on to each faction, or do less factions... having stretch goals be whole new factions / units caused issues before and I'd be cautious about doing it again!
Stretch goals adding a figure to EACH faction at once, would be the very best way to go, imo, no matter how many factions you choose to do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/18 22:36:06
Subject: Re:Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran
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RiTides idea sounds good.
Same thing I'm always telling my students- you gotta Keep It Super Simple!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/19 00:51:23
Subject: Re:Sneak peek at the super duper secret next Red Box Games project
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Dakka Veteran
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$5K was just an estimate. Even if that is the ideal amount needed to pay myself for the effort and pay for the production as well I won't set the initial funding goal that high. I think that I will make up the difference once the production is paid for. So what I will probably do is set the initial funding goal for as little money as is needed for production and then go from there. I am confident enough in this project to go ahead and pony up the effort to make the figures. Once that is done though it will be up to you guys whether or not the molds get made and the castings get run. So I doubt VERY seriously that the initial goal will be even close to $50,000.00. Though I am optimistic I am also trying to be as realistic as possible and 50K is a BIG pill to swallow even in crowd funding.
Oh I did not feel pushed at all Bolognesus.
The lesser undead will have at least 9 totally unique sculpts, and I am still thinking on whether or not to convert several of those into even more. I guess ti all depends on how the funding goes. And yes they are perfectly compatible with my existing undead. The themes don;t really match but that may be a trivial thign to most.
I am definitely NOT going to get in over my head on this. I would prefer to limit this campaign to Barbarians, Undead, and Amazons but I also want to make the most of any opportunity that arises. That said for now I am going to keep my efforts focused on the original three.
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