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So it seems, with limited battlebox game experience, that Def and Arm mean almost nothing as most things seem to hit really hard and kill really fast...most one or two shots taken mean death for a warcaster/light jack/heavy jack....our we playing wrong? or does Dem and Arm mean little in this game?

Could you walk us through these 2-hit-kill combats on the heavies?

On the average the axer has taken both arms off which ever jack he is hitting, including the heavy in one turn.

It seems who ever the heavy hit dies...be beast or warcaster.

The gun jack in the Cygnar battle box kills any light beast in a turn with 3 focus.

It just seems that the Def and Arm stats are not providing anything.

I know its in the other post, but it also seems that trolls, known as a tough faction, fall just as fast as everyone else.

Just trying to get into grips with this game, and right now it feels like the def and arm stats do little to nothing, maybe 1 turn more before you get annihilated at best. And the Cygnar ranged jack destroys those trolls very easily.



PS - Quick rule question: Do you have to run in a straight line?

Really? Ok, Impaler is DEF 12 ARM 16. Assuming the Charger is aiming, it is RAT 8 POW 12. Boosted both hit and damage with powerful shot with 2 focus, 1 to buy the second shot. Assuming both hit (unlikely to miss), you have an average roll on 3D6 of about 10.5, so assuming one 10 and one 11. That'll equal a POW 22 and POW 23 hit respectively. First hit does 6 damage, second does 7, leaving the Impaler with 9 of 22 boxes remaining. Nowhere near killing it in one go. How are you guys doing it that leads to it dead every time? Hell if you spiked one of those damage rolls to triple 6s, the Impaler would still have 1 or 2 boxes left. So unless you are spiking constantly, you shouldn't be getting results that good.

And no, run in circles if you want, it is other things like charges and slams which have their directions limited.

And you seem to play the Cygnar battlebox. You have a caster with AS and one of my favourite feats ever. Give something like a Centurion AS and then feat, and even Mulg will struggle to kill it.

Doesn't 3 focus allow you to have a boosted attack and damage roll for your first and 2nd shot with the Charger?

So on the trolls is the RAT + 3D6 to hit, which usually hits and then damage is 12 + 3D6, which usually does a good amount of damage..and then do it again..thus crippling or destroying those trolls?

Its really the trolls that can't touch the Cygnar, because they get shot to death first, and the ones that make it get beaten to death very quickly from the heavy. Since they usually have little to no health left from the guns...I always give the Charger 3 focus to get to boosted attack/damage shots.

PS - 1. Another quick rule question: Does knock down stop you from running and charging if you pay the 1 focus/fury to get up and then the 1 focus/fury to run or charge?

2. When spending a focus on damage mitigation how do you allocate the damage to the beast taking it?

I just did the math for you with boosted damage on both shots...

I don't know what you mean about focus and beasts. Do you mean using fury to transfer? Roll column.

Also, for the love of yakburner, how about no new threads for 2 days? Why not just repurpose one of your many current threads to 'joker's question time' and have at it?

I see the math..and I am not fighting you, it makes sense...but it just seems the trolls fall extremely quickly..and have no chance of every taking out the Cygnar player.

The only time the trolls won was when I thought I had his axer tied up with my shield guy, and the axer just walked away from the fight, easily survived the free strike and killed stryker.



I am trying to keep it one thread right now...its hard for two players with no support from the local store to get the rules straight and understand this game...its a complicated game. Please have patience with me. Trying to not lose any questions in a long thread...I do bookmark all my threads for quick reference as well.

Warmachine is a high-offense game and things certainly do die in one turn.Heavy warjacks and warbeast charges are the most damaging thing that can happen in a game. The stats are aligned in a way that an attck is more likely to damage than to not. However, an unbuffed heavy one-rounding another is a very rare occurrence. Damage does not mean death for models with 30+ boxes.
Will systems and aspects be broken?: yes
Can a heavy one-round a light?: yes
Can a light finish off an injured heavy?: yes
Should you walk into charge range of multiple enemies without a plan?: no

What would you do to kill a def15 arm18 heavy warbeast? What about a def16 arm 16 warlock with three transfers?
Defensive measures can be taken and become very effective.

Many people coming from GW games often need an adjustment period to get used to going from a very defensive game (2+ armor saves, 3+ invulnerable for instance) to a very high offense game (pow 19 juggernaut is only 7 points and hits harder than a train). I'm not sure if that is your gaming background but it likely is for at least one person in your gaming group and it is possible that individual's surprise carried to the rest of you.

I am willing to give some background of the group.

We have never actually got to play GW games, even though we wanted too. Way to many models needed.

So we found this game, heard it was really balanced. We have no support, just this website and google.

So all we have is the battle box games, Cygnar vs, trolls right now...and the trolls get decimated every single time. It just seems that the armor stat and def stat are not helping them.

We were told that the Cygnar is very good at range and trolls are very tough. So far we can see the range thing working out just fine, but the trolls don't seem to have any of that tough stuff mentioned. Its just becoming no fun with the one sidedness of the games right now. As my opponent said, if i have no chance of winning why am i playing?

Warmachine is a very Definite sort of game, most of the time. Hitting DEF 13 with Mat 6 requires 7s (close to a 60% hit rate), but you can always boost that, or knock a target down or get a bonus to hit through spells... However all of those things do take some planning and resources to pull off, and then you get things with super high DEF, like a full infantry unit with DEF 15-18, and suddenly extremely relevant. Now DeF means nothing for most heavies, as DEF 10-12 is pretty easy to hit, BUT ARM is more important on those models with lots of damage boxes. Basically, each extra ARM means one less damage per hit, and the difference between taking 5 dam per hit and 4 damage per hit can mean needing an extra attack or two to finish off a jack (which often means an extra turn). But yeah, fully loaded jacks do damage, and lots of it, but not enough to render ARM useless by any stretch.

Looking at your examples, a fully loaded Charger (cygnar shooty jack) can do 2 boosted POW12s - very good for a light at range, but against a Khador heavy (arm 20, 34 boxes), it would need 6 turns to finish it off, with 3 focus a turn, only denting it each turn, while it can rip into a Menoth light (ARM 17, 24 boxes), probably crippling it in one turn and finishing it in two turns. The light is obviously a better target. However, add in a Shield (as with the Revenger) and suddenly that goes to an average of 7 damage a turn, if the shield doesn't get crippled by a lucky shot - far more resilient, needing 4 turns to destroy it, and meaning it probably won't be crippled in a turn, with some luck. Remember too that 3 focus is fully Half of strykers allotment, leaving him little focus to camp or use on other jacks.

Now heavy vs heavy, the alpha strike is pretty big - first player in has a good chance to cripple the opposing one... But generally it's not a forgone conclusion without buffs and planning. A cygnar jack vs a Menoth one with Defenders Ward (making it ARM 21) does an average of 4 damage a hit - ok, but it will only do less than 20 boxes, and might take massive damage in return if it didn't cripple the cortex or main weapon of it's target, and that's assuming you don't miss a single attack (hitting on 5s).

Anyway, in the Trolls vs Cygnar game, here's some pointers - firstly, knock out the charger with boosted Impaler shots. Even knocking it down and back with crit smite can help reduce it's output, if he has to spend focus to shake effects, and remember that while his Jacks can be crippled, you can always have yours fighting fit by healing/regeneration if needed.

Also, the Troll battlebox is kind of meh. It can do well enough, and the Axer and Impaler are good lights, but you really want a heavy, and the caster doesn't really match up with a beast heavy game (he wants some infantry for his feat). Expand a bit to 25 points plus try out a different caster maybe, if you have the rules down. Also, see if there's some way to get a Press Ganger, or at least an experienced player, in your area to show you the ropes, because it can be hard learning the play style and rules of the game on your own.

Are we doing free strikes right? It seems as the incentive isn't really there to keep some models in combat.

Your opponent gets a free strike which is +2 to attack and +2 to damage...which in the starter boxes, unless its the heavy, is a joke.

PS - The only pressganger in the area was kicked out of the store for being too aggressive to the GW players.

Free strike is +2 to hit and +1d6 to damage.

So at least we did the free strike wrong, but that just hurts him more than me. At least in the scenario I was talking about.

Does knock down stop you from running and charging if you pay the 1 focus/fury to get up and then the 1 focus/fury to run or charge?

Are you guys using Kill Box for your battle box games? How much terrain are you using?

I'm only asking because I'm wondering how the Charger is getting the time to kill more than a single beast. I also find that the Cygnar box has a much bigger advantage if Stryker has the extra room no Kill Box provides him.

Once you shake Knockdown, it doesn't affect anything. So yes, a model that shakes can run or charge.

Unfortunately, it's a hard slog for the Troll box as the faction really is designed around the various buffs that the rest of the faction provides.

J0kerrMT wrote:
So at least we did the free strike wrong, but that just hurts him more than me. At least in the scenario I was talking about.

Does knock down stop you from running and charging if you pay the 1 focus/fury to get up and then the 1 focus/fury to run or charge?

No. As long as you pay the Focus / fury to shake the KD during your maintenance phase then the Warbeast / Warjack is free to do whatever it wants during its activation (but will have -1 fury / focus, obviously).

 Platuan4th wrote:
Are you guys using Kill Box for your battle box games? How much terrain are you using?

I'm only asking because I'm wondering how the Charger is getting the time to kill more than a single beast. I also find that the Cygnar box has a much bigger advantage if Stryker has the extra room no Kill Box provides him.

Once you shake Knockdown, it doesn't affect anything. So yes, a model that shakes can run or charge.

Unfortunately, it's a hard slog for the Troll box as the faction really is designed around the various buffs that the rest of the faction provides.

I have no idea what a kill box is?

As for right now we are using no terrain as we want to get the rules down....which as you can see from above, we are still messing up.

J0kerrMT wrote:


I have no idea what a kill box is?

As for right now we are using no terrain as we want to get the rules down....which as you can see from above, we are still messing up.

For the purposes of Battlebox games(I noticed they changed the Journeyman League rules and disagree with taking it out), it's a box created by measuring 12" inwards from each table edge that your Caster/Lock must be inside by end of Round 2 and onwards or you lose. It prevents the "I'm down to my Caster and one or no Jacks, let me play keep away all game" style of play.

Also, I know you're trying to get the rules down, but terrain really is important, even if only a couple pieces of LoS blocking, impassable terrain like houses(which won't require you to learn any new rules, btw). No terrain further benefits the ranged models like the Charger since you have nothing to hide behind while advancing and nothing that could potentially give you Def buff.

Jokerr,

you do realise that you pretty much asked the same question in this thread? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/553581.page

and that people allready told you where the problem lies( including myself)? And that your enemy seems to have a dire troll, that he doesnt want to use it seems?

So to help you ( again) with your problem....its due to the fact that you play battlebox games with trolls vs cygnar, which are horribly unbalanced and you should stop playing that way allready....

Also : As for right now we are using no terrain as we want to get the rules down....

Wait so you dont use terrain? Its a huge factor in the game! That would really help the troll player! You cant just ignore this HUGE part of the game! Seriously! Its also part of the rules! How can you just ignore that?

So your actutally making the game as hard as possible for the troll and then complain about that?

So to fix your problems:

a) get some woods, hills, walls on the table, where the trolls are harder to hit/ see and the axers animus gets way more useful!
b) let your opponent use his dire troll allready!

Vombaticus wrote:
Jokerr,

you do realise that you pretty much asked the same question in this thread? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/553581.page

and that people allready told you where the problem lies( including myself)? And that your enemy seems to have a dire troll, that he doesnt want to use it seems?

So to help you ( again) with your problem....its due to the fact that you play battlebox games with trolls vs cygnar, which are horribly unbalanced and you should stop playing that way allready....

Also : As for right now we are using no terrain as we want to get the rules down....

Wait so you dont use terrain? Its a huge factor in the game! That would really help the troll player! You cant just ignore this HUGE part of the game! Seriously! Its also part of the rules! How can you just ignore that?

So your actutally making the game as hard as possible for the troll and then complain about that?

So to fix your problems:

a) get some woods, hills, walls on the table, where the trolls are harder to hit/ see and the axers animus gets way more useful!
b) let your opponent use his dire troll allready!

I did say to use his dire troll...he wants to use Battle box to learn the rules. And will add terrain.

Can't really help him there then can we? Trolls suffer from a 0 heavy battle box which makes it rather shifted against them. Against the Khador BB they will simply bounce off the high armor and get wrecked fast. The Cygnar BB can make the defender even higher arm than Khador's best on feat turn and just above their average with AS. What can you expect 3 light jacks/beasts to do against that?

The battle boxes are entirely unbalanced. Most BB have 11 points, Cyriss Has 10, Cryx has 14, Circle has 12. Hordes is usually doubled up with support beasts like impalers, cyclops and argus. Most boxes have 4 models, Khador has 3, Cryx has 5. The point of these is to get a grasp of the game or feel of a faction and quickly move on.

The game is designed kind of like chess where things will die and be removed from the board. The idea is that when something of yours dies, try to make sure you end up in a better position.

Sometimes hard to do with the battleboxes, though, since you have minimal models.

You might want to consider getting a different battlebox to try out. Also don't ignore the PP forums. There is some really good info there AND an official rules forum if you are not sure how rules work together. Just try not to give in to the "group think" that can sometimes get mired and unwilling to consider new ideas.

Also, If you have the ability at all, I'd find a LGS or somewhere where people play and know the rules and have them watch you guys, give tips, clear up rules, etc. IMO being able to get immediate feedback is important.

I'd suggest trying out some of the alt boxes from the Journeyman League rules, too. The Troll one there actually does have a DTM.

Do you have the prime rule book? Over half of your questions could be answered by it. Not that we don't want you posting on Dakka but reading the rulebook would be faster than waiting for forum responses.

Troll battlebox is a little lackluster due to the absence of a heavy. Trolls are tough but that really only applies to the infantry which have tough, the warbeasts don't have it. Get a heavy plastic kit, see if your opponent would be cool with swapping out an Impaler for a Mauler and see how it goes.

If you want to play battlebox sized games, just play 15 point games instead of limiting yourself to the boxes(which are unbalanced)

That way you can build a decent list while still keeping things simple.

Battlebox games are for complete newbs. You should rather quickly move on to 15-20 point games with some units and solos or different beasts/jacks to add some actual gameplay depth.

Moving to a 15pt game would serve you and the troll player much better. For him it's as easy as dropping one impaler and replacing it with a Dire Troll Mauler. Technically only 14 points, but he'll be fine with that.

With that he can now threaten heavies better and he gets a chain attack throw that can really disrupt people's plans between it and the Impaler's crit slam. Add on the Axer's animus and now it's SPD7 with Pathfinder. Keep Madrak relatively close by and it's Def14 Arm18 which is fairly respectable and should keep it operational until it rips the arms off of something.

Further, the Mauler's own animus kicks it up to PS19 and makes the impaler a PS16 thrown weapon with crit slam. That can be huge!

It depends on where you live, but i am sure there maybe a game store close by. That could be a good place to go to look for vets that play and can assist you.

Also here is a neat little trick you can pull with both an Axer and Mauler.

First, you put the Axer's Animus on the Mauler to make him spd7 with Pathfinder.

You then charge something you want dead with the Mauler. After moving but before making your charge attack, you have the Mauler put his own animus on himself. This will replace Rush but since you already moved it doesn't matter.

So you can get the 10.5" charge threat and the +3 strength at the same time, have your cake and eat it too.

Also, the Mauler's Animus increases the strength of the Impaler's thrown spear because thrown weapons add the models strength to the attack. That kicks the Impaler's spear up to a very respectable level. Of course you can't also have Far Strike so its a tradeoff.

J0kerrMT wrote:
So it seems, with limited battlebox game experience, that Def and Arm mean almost nothing as most things seem to hit really hard and kill really fast...most one or two shots taken mean death for a warcaster/light jack/heavy jack....our we playing wrong? or does Dem and Arm mean little in this game?

Key word being 'limited battlebox game experience'.

To add to what the others are saying, battle box games are fir learning the basics - order of activation, focus/fury, feats, spells, cover, boosts etc. it's not the 'real' game, it's the training mission. Others gave mentioned the importance of cover and concealment - trying yo hit a def16 warbeast is a trickier proposition than def 12! Especially when there is a mauler running up beside him.

However, def and arm mean quite a bit joker. Meet Borka and the troll champions brick. Def15, arm18, eight hits each, and tough on top of that. Two weapon master attacs each, on top. Or long riders. Trolls have arguably the best heavy infantry in the game. Champions and warders are obnoxious.

Madrak has a spell that buffs the def of all models near him. Def12 gets hit by mat6 about 60% of the time. Even there, attacks will miss. Increase the def via spells and cover, and it's a factor. Look at arm. Trolls gave krielstone bearers - they're buffing arm of everything near them by up to4 iirc. That champions brick? Yeah, with borka, it's def15, arm 22 when the krielstone bearers get factired in. Completely obnoxious. Also note trolls have the 'tough' rule. You've dealt with the def tricks? Ok fine. You've dealt with the armour tricks? Ok, fine. It should be dead? Nope. They laugh it off on a 5+. Tough - all your hard work means nothing.

Trolls are a hard faction. They're hard to put down. They don't have naturally high arm or def numbers, but they have lots of ways to increase them, backed up by tough.

This is a bit beyond what you're looking for, but I will add this. Once you get into the game proper a lot of the "meta" skews towards Def being better than Arm.

So, a bit of terminology here. "Meta" is the term used for how people gear their armies in the game. Since the Colossals book came out, people have been playing more heavy damage roll armies to beat heavy armor or things with lots of damage boxes.

High defense and armor are good. Def mitigates the opponent's ability to hit you, and Arm mitigates the damage that they do.
If you have a low Def (-14), then you're going to be hit more.
If you have a low Arm (-17) then you're going to be damaged more by enemy attacks.

Defense is better because the enemy is already planning on throwing the kitchen sink at you damage wise to kill the model and making them work extra hard to actually hit you means more survivability.

Now, having low base Def does not mean the end of the world.
If you are behind cover granting terrain a moderate Def (12) can become a moderately high Def (16). Concealment does this as well to a lesser degree.

However, it's even better if the enemy never sees you at all. This is where terrain is most important. Being able to move through terrain with ease (such as with Pathfinder) makes it easier for you to get where you need to without being shot needlessly. If you don't have that, you need to move behind terrain and keep moving around it in order to get close enough to the enemy. Block lines of sight from your enemy to your models and you will have a much happier time.