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If its not, then the only restriction to firing 1 weapon does not apply.

 BarBoBot wrote:
If its not, then the only restriction to firing 1 weapon does not apply.

Ok, it doesn't apply. Where is the permission to fire a second weapon?
Answer that and you win. I shut up, the thread is locked and you gain 1 internet.

Why do you think you only have permission to fire 1 weapon? Please show where the number of weapons you may fire is defined? If you can't then permission to fire any weapon is permission to fire all weapons.

I think you don't have permission to shoot two weapons as there is nowhere that gives that permission. You can't do anything in a permissive ruleset without permission.
Fling you've just said it doesn't say I cannot.
I can fire a weapon, it doesn't say I cannot fire them all.

I posted the relevant rules.

Burden is now on you.

The rules tell you exactly how many weapons you can fire, and the restriction is only in the shooting phase.

If your making a shooting attack that's not in the shooting phase, then there is no restriction.

Of course a reasonable person reads overwatch and see that it says you make a "normal shooting attack and uses ALL the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, AND SO ON" and knows that its treated as a shooting phase.

Uses "ALL" the normal rules is blindingly clear that you do in fact use ALL the normal rules, including multitrackers and MC rules.

"ALL the normal rules" not some, or most, or certain ones, ALL.

Oh so I'm unreasonable.... cool.

Barbobot, the burden is not on me. You've not shown permission. You've shown no restriction but no general permission.

Normal rules are not special rules or those that come from codices. They are special. So you need to show again how it is a shooting phase and not make veiled assertions and insults.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is a normal shooting attack now two shooting attacks?
Please show where it says that firing two weapons is a single attack. I can see permission to fire additional weapons in certain circumstances in the shooting phase but that doesn't make it part of the same attack.

It absolutely does. Because models are not given permission to make more than one shooting attack. One shooting attack can consist of multiple weapons - and commonly does (vehicles, MCs, Multi-trackers for example).

Rigeld. I understand what you're saying. I disagree and read the rules to say that overwatch is not a shooting phase. Similarly vector strike is neither combat nor shooting.

The fact that it's not a shooting phase is irrelevant. Your comparison to Vector Strike is flawed and irrelevant.
I have permission to make a shooting attack. A shooting attack is never restricted to a single weapon. You've asserted it is. Prove it without using page 51.

Fling you've just said it doesn't say I cannot.
I can fire a weapon, it doesn't say I cannot fire them all.

I haven't said that at all. I've said I have permission to fire my weapons and no where does it tell me how many. Therefore I can fire all of them unless I am told that there is a specific number I can fire. I have thus shown permission. I have proven your "one weapon per shooting attack" theory is false in the rules.

Ok prove you can fire more than one weapon.
You say there is permission.. show it. I've asked repeatedly for someone to point this permission out but nobody has.

The lack of a restriction isn't permission, it is only the lack of a restriction. Literally it doesn't say you cannot fire more than 1 weapon in overwatch, is that permission to fire more than 1 weapon?

Page 13 doesn't give permission for firing multiple weapons.

So show that page 13 is only permission to fire 1 weapon.

Did you read the overwatch rules?

It says follow ALL the rules for shooting.

You have been provided with all the rules with the exception of defining the word "all".

I trust you know what "all" means?

I don't have to. You have to show permission. It doesn't say all weapons.

Following ALL the rules for shooting means ALL the rules for shooting.

What does page 51 tell us about the rules for shooting multiple weapons?

Are the rules on page 51 NOT shooting rules?

 BarBoBot wrote:
Did you read the overwatch rules?

It says follow ALL the rules for shooting.

You have been provided with all the NORMAL[u] rules with the exception of defining the word "all".

I trust you know what "all" means?

I have fixed that quote. Is codex or unit type specific special or more advanced rules for shooting, normal shooting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barbobot, I hope you understand what "normal" is.

I don't have to. You have to show permission. It doesn't say all weapons.

Sorry what? You are asserting the page only gives permission to fire 1 weapon. We claim it remains silent on how many weapons you can fire. So you very much have to prove your what you claim as your entire argument in based on that point.

What is the "normal" rule for MC's shooting?

Oh yeah, their "normal" shooting rules say they may fire 2 weapons.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Did you read the overwatch rules?

It says follow ALL the rules for shooting.

You have been provided with all the NORMAL[u] rules with the exception of defining the word "all".

I trust you know what "all" means?

I have fixed that quote. Is codex or unit type specific special or more advanced rules for shooting, normal shooting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barbobot, I hope you understand what "normal" is.

Normal for an MC shooting attack is two weapons.
I have permission for roll a d6 to hit for every shot in range. I have a bolter and bolt pistol and the range is 8".
Cite the rule that denies me from rolling 3 d6.

As you say fling, it doesn't say you can fire multiple weapons. It says you can fire at least one weapon per model but it doesn't say if you can fire more.
We're in full agreement. You don't have permission.

s you say fling, it doesn't say you can fire multiple weapons. It says you can fire at least one weapon per model but it doesn't say if you can fire more.
We're in full agreement. You don't have permission

So we can fire at least 1 weapon per model using the permission on page 13 agreed?

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Did you read the overwatch rules?

It says follow ALL the rules for shooting.

You have been provided with all the NORMAL[u] rules with the exception of defining the word "all".

I trust you know what "all" means?

I have fixed that quote. Is codex or unit type specific special or more advanced rules for shooting, normal shooting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barbobot, I hope you understand what "normal" is.

Normal for an MC shooting attack is two weapons.
I have permission for roll a d6 to hit for every shot in range. I have a bolter and bolt pistol and the range is 8".
Cite the rule that denies me from rolling 3 d6.

Cite the rules that allows it. In the shooting phase it is 2 weapons on that MC, is overwatch a shooting phase?
Can you show that a normal attack is what you're saying it is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

s you say fling, it doesn't say you can fire multiple weapons. It says you can fire at least one weapon per model but it doesn't say if you can fire more.
We're in full agreement. You don't have permission

So we can fire at least 1 weapon per model using the permission on page 13 agreed?

Sure... what's next?

So does page 13 give permission to fire at least 1 weapon per model? Yes or No?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So does page 13 give permission to fire at least 1 weapon per model? Yes or No?

As I answered, sure. So that's a yes.

Cool if I fired 10 weapons would the statement "I have fired at least 1 weapon" be true?

Yes it would be true. However, you cannot show permission to do so. It says what most models can do in the shooting rules, it implies 1 weapon only but it doesn't give any permission to fire more than one per model.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

I have permission for roll a d6 to hit for every shot in range. I have a bolter and bolt pistol and the range is 8".
Cite the rule that denies me from rolling 3 d6.

Cite the rules that allows it. In the shooting phase it is 2 weapons on that MC, is overwatch a shooting phase?
Can you show that a normal attack is what you're saying it is?

Page 13 tells me to roll a d6 for every shot in range.
I have a bolter and a bolt pistol. That's 3 shots in range.
You're asserting I'm allowed to roll no more than 2. Cite the denial.
Right now you are contradicting the actual rules and making things up for no reason. Please cite rules support for your stance.

The most relevant rule that liturgies wants to ignore is that the overwatch rule tells you to use ALL normal shooting rules.

You can not exclude some rules when it tells you to use them ALL.

A monstrous creature states that it may fire an additional weapon in the shooting phase. This is its normal rules.

I you don't allow a MC to fire 2 weapons in overwatch you are not following ALL the normal rules for shooting.

Yes it would be true. However, you cannot show permission to do so. It says what most models can do in the shooting rules, it implies 1 weapon only but it doesn't give any permission to fire more than one per model.

Your concession is accepted. You agree that it gives permission to fire at least 1 weapon, you agree that firing 2 weapons is firing at least 1 weapon. So you agree you have permission to fire 2 weapons. Sorry but you've concluded your argument.

Rigeld. I said you cannot fire more than 2 weapons in the shooting phase and you cannot show permission to fire more than 1 in overwatch. I assume you can fire 1 in overwatch as most models can roll one dice etc in the resolution of a shooting attack. You haven't shown that a shooting attack is firing more than 1 weapon but I'm sure that's what you're going to show in the next post.

I cannot cite a denial of something that there is no permission for. Similarly you cannot and have not shown permission to fire more than 1 weapon.

What am I making up please? Show what I'm making up or apologise for that now.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes it would be true. However, you cannot show permission to do so. It says what most models can do in the shooting rules, it implies 1 weapon only but it doesn't give any permission to fire more than one per model.

Wrong. Page 13 does not mention or imply how many weapons you can shoot. It refers to how many shots a weapon has in its profile.

Here is the rule

"Most models only get to fire one shot, however some WEAPONS are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail late"

It mentions nothing about multiple weapons, only multiple shots from a single weapon.

The rules telling you exactly how many weapons you CAN fire is on page 51, and it tells you 1 unless otherwise stated.

MC's and multitrackers qualify as "otherwise stated", and they are absolutely part of "normal shooting rules"

you cannot show permission to fire more than 1 in overwatch.

You have already agreed such permission is on page 13. So are you now saying that page does not give permission to fire at least 1 weapon?