Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You have yet to show that advanced rules are normal shooting rules. That is an assertion.

Most models can fire 1 shot, unless their weapons say so, in the resolution of a shooting attack. Imply doesn't mean RAW.
RAW you can fire one shot or more if your able to but it doesn't say you can shoot multiple weapons.

The permission is clear. Overwatch says use ALL the normal rules for shooting, and multitrackers and MC rule ARE normal rules for shooting.

Also MCs and multi-trackers are shooting phase. You've still not shown how overwatch is a shooting phase. These rules don't say when shooting.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Rigeld. I said you cannot fire more than 2 weapons in the shooting phase and you cannot show permission to fire more than 1 in overwatch. I assume you can fire 1 in overwatch as most models can roll one dice etc in the resolution of a shooting attack. You haven't shown that a shooting attack is firing more than 1 weapon but I'm sure that's what you're going to show in the next post.

I mentioned it before, but I guess you need more explanation.
Units make shooting attacks (p12).
One unit can never make more than one shooting attack (p12).
One unit may shoot multiple weapons (p51).
Therefore one shooting attack can be made up of firing multiple weapons (unarguable conclusion).
Please explain why you disagree.

I cannot cite a denial of something that there is no permission for. Similarly you cannot and have not shown permission to fire more than 1 weapon.

I have a number of shots in range. You're asserting I can only roll a portion of those shots. Please explain why.

What am I making up please? Show what I'm making up or apologise for that now.

You've asserted there is no permission to fire multiple weapons. I've cited such permission twice now. You're making up a restriction and refusing to cite it. No, I won't apologize for stating that you're making up rules that do to exist, especially when you refuse to cite them.

Anyone else notice the line "uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on."?

To me, that suggests you use any normal rule for firing your weapon during the shooting phase, as that's the only section of the book that covers firing your guns. Rules as written, they wanted you to extend your logic beyond simply what's written, because why rewrite the entire rules for firing weapons just for overwatch when they can simply say "Use the rules for firing with these additional rules?"

So liturgies are you going to bow out now or actually show denial of the permission you agreed exists to fire multiple weapons as part of a shooting attack.

I posted the complete rule earlier.

Liturgies ignored it.

You have to treat overwatch as a shooting phase, because it tells you to follow ALL the shooting rules.

Every shooting rule happens in the shooting phase. You use ALL of them for overwatch.

Even if by some rationale you can't accept that overwatch is treated like a shooting phase, the only rule restricting you to firing 1 weapon ALSO says in the shooting phase.

It doesn't say one unit cannot make more than 1 shooting attack on page 12. It actually says that a unit can be nominated to make shooting attacks. You're misquoting.

One unit is fine to shoot multiple times depending on it's content. Why can one model shoot multiple times? You're not shown permission.

I cannot cite rules that don't exist. I also don't see permission which you've refused to give as it doesn't exist.

Rigeld you're obfuscating and doing the great dance of insult, shift the burden and demanding rules to disprove rules that don't exist. Feel free to report that statement. You've said I'm making things up twice by asking you to provide permission to shoot multiple weapons in overwatch and to prove that overwatch is a shooting phase. Stop calling me a liar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Anyone else notice the line "uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on."?

To me, that suggests you use any normal rule for firing your weapon during the shooting phase, as that's the only section of the book that covers firing your guns. Rules as written, they wanted you to extend your logic beyond simply what's written, because why rewrite the entire rules for firing weapons just for overwatch when they can simply say "Use the rules for firing with these additional rules?"

Well I cannot answer what the GW design team do but they could have said "As per the shooting phase but...."

Suggestions are not RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I posted the complete rule earlier.

Liturgies ignored it.

You have to treat overwatch as a shooting phase, because it tells you to follow ALL the shooting rules.

Every shooting rule happens in the shooting phase. You use ALL of them for overwatch.

Even if by some rationale you can't accept that overwatch is treated like a shooting phase, the only rule restricting you to firing 1 weapon ALSO says in the shooting phase.

Even if there is no restriction you have to show permission.

Not a liar, but obtuse.

The rules have been presented to you, with rules support. You continue to try and ignore certain shooting rules when overwatch clearly tells you to use ALL of them.

I cannot cite rules that don't exist. I also don't see permission which you've refused to give as it doesn't exist.

The underlined is a lie you do see the permission and have admitted it. Stop saying stuff you have already admitted is not true. You've agreed page 13 gives permission for a model to shoot multiple weapons so show the restriction or concede.

Fling, you're misrepresenting the rules again. A unit can shoot multiple weapons if there are multiple models to fire. You've yet to show permission for a model to fire multiple weapons after checking range you don't go by units anymore.

So that a unit has permission to shoot multiple weapons it's general permission, specifics like having weapons and being in range etc limit that ability to fire. Limitations like not having permission to fire multiple weapons per model in overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fling. Permission for a model to fire a weapon isn't permission to fire multiple weapons. What I said is we can agree that a model can fire at least 1, 1 is still at least one.

"some weapons" can fire more than once isn't the same as models can fire multiple weapons.

You've yet to show permission for a model to fire multiple weapons after checking range you don't go by units anymore.

Again with the lies I point you to:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So does page 13 give permission to fire at least 1 weapon per model? Yes or No?

As I answered, sure. So that's a yes.

Here you agree there is permission to fire multiple weapons for a model. So please stop with the blatant dishonesty it is doing you no favours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Permission for a model to fire a weapon isn't permission to fire multiple weapons. What I said is we can agree that a model can fire at least 1, 1 is still at least one.

The rules don't state "a model may fire a weapon" if they did we'd not be having thus argument.

Yes 1 is at least 1, so is 2 and 3 and 37 and 578553479973119007431356....

1 is at least one. I'm sorry English allows for subjectivity of meaning but you're really desperate to call me a liar. Stop. I've asked repeatedly for you et al to stop and I'd appreciate we debate the issue and not the man.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It doesn't say one unit cannot make more than 1 shooting attack on page 12. It actually says that a unit can be nominated to make shooting attacks. You're misquoting.

Shifting the goal post. Edit: And it does actually say that a unit cannot make more than one shooting attack. Look at step 1 of the process.
If you cannot nominate a unit that has already fired, it cannot ever make more than one shooting attack.
You originally said - and I'll quote so there's no doubt about what you said -

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is a normal shooting attack now two shooting attacks?
Please show where it says that firing two weapons is a single attack. I can see permission to fire additional weapons in certain circumstances in the shooting phase but that doesn't make it part of the same attack.

I've proven that the rules call firing two weapons a single shooting attack. Please agree or cite reasons why.

One unit is fine to shoot multiple times depending on it's content. Why can one model shoot multiple times? You're not shown permission.

For the third time, does page 13 allow me to roll a die for every shot in range or not?

I cannot cite rules that don't exist. I also don't see permission which you've refused to give as it doesn't exist.

I've shown it. Twice before and for a third time now. I bolded it for you - further attempts to fail to address my point will be regarded as trolling.

Rigeld you're obfuscating and doing the great dance of insult, shift the burden and demanding rules to disprove rules that don't exist. Feel free to report that statement. You've said I'm making things up twice by asking you to provide permission to shoot multiple weapons in overwatch and to prove that overwatch is a shooting phase. Stop calling me a liar.

I've shown rules that exist. I've cited page numbers. I've insulted no one. I've shifted no burden.
I've not asserted that Overwatch is a shooting phase. Ever. That's irrelevant and not what I need to prove.
I absolutely have shown permission to shoot multiple weapons.
I'm not calling you a liar. I've said you're making up rules and refusing to cite them.

Perhaps you'd like to mention something even close to a rule? Because I have, without a doubt, done this.

Line 2 of roll to hit says that most models get to fire 1 shot, ie one weapon and then goes on to say what happens when weapons allow for more shots.
That is permission to fire a weapon.... or is it not and the entire shooting rules are a meaningless morass of words.

I'm sorry, is saying that you are making things up not the same as you are telling lies in your neck of the woods?

Yes we are debating the issue unfortunately you have agreed things are true and then based your entire argument on those things being false. This has been highlighted to you but you persist. So don't say there is no permission for a model to fire multiple weapons, you have already agreed that there is. So remove that part of your argument as you have agreed it is false, so sticking to that is lying.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Line 2 of roll to hit says that most models get to fire 1 shot, ie one weapon and then goes on to say what happens when weapons allow for more shots.
That is permission to fire a weapon.... or is it not and the entire shooting rules are a meaningless morass of words.

I'm sorry, is saying that you are making things up not the same as you are telling lies in your neck of the woods?

I bolded where you are completely inventing a rule.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Line 2 of roll to hit says that most models get to fire 1 shot, ie one weapon and then goes on to say what happens when weapons allow for more shots.
That is permission to fire a weapon.... or is it not and the entire shooting rules are a meaningless morass of words.

I'm sorry, is saying that you are making things up not the same as you are telling lies in your neck of the woods?

Underlined is made up by you and not present in the rules.

Correct rigeld.

That line he keeps referring to says nothing about multiple weapons. It talks about multiple shots from a single weapon. The only rules that tell you how many weapons you may fire is found in the section aptly named "more than one weapon" found on page 51 of the brb

"And so on."

It's expressly a rule, clearly written in the book in a segment that is clearly discussing rules. Is it one that doesn't define things 100% exact? Yes. Is it still something you can follow within reason?

Well seeing as it's several people against 1 right now, I'd say the intention is pretty clear. Monstrous Creatures get to fire 2 of their guns in the shooting phase. Overwatch is treated like a shooting attack and follows all the rules for it. Therefore, MCs get to fire 2 of their guns.

Seems pretty logical to me.

So the assertions you guys have are:
1)Without permission or restriction you can fire all of your weapons.

2) Overwatch is a shooting phase.

3) A shooting attack is a singular thing that a unit does in the shooting phase. (This is actually not what the brb says)

4) Because a unit could shoot multiple times a model must be able to.

As for 1, is it cool for my models with two pistols and a bolter to shoot 3 times in overwatch?

SRSface you know you're making a logical fallacy right and arguing RAI?

Don't put words in people's mouths. Everyone has posted the rules and explained their reasoning.

You have refused to back your assertions with rule support.

How could Overwatch possibly function without using the shooting phase rules?

Without page 51, all models would be able to fire all weapons all the time.

You seem to be relying on page 13.
Page 13 says 'most models only get to fire one shot'. There is nothing restrictive here: it is merely a descriptive statement (and probably completely incorrect at this point). This does not restrict you in the number of weapons you may fire, and indeed is completely inadequate for that purpose as it describes 'most' models and freely admits to the fact that some models may be able to fire more than one shot.

In fact, the entire 'shooting phase' section never actually makes reference to choosing which weapon to fire, or how to resolve shooting with more than one weapon per model. It simply gives you permission to fire, and the consequence of that (without page 51) is that you would fire with all weapons that you posses.

What assertion? That 1 dice for a models total shooting attacks would dictate 1 weapon? That's hardly an assertion.

As for questioning permission and things the rules don't say, prove me wrong. I'm not the one that put words in your mouth, I'm just listing what you're asserting. Maybe someone better at arguing can point it out clearer in the morning.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So the assertions you guys have are:
1)Without permission or restriction you can fire all of your weapons.

2) Overwatch is a shooting phase.

3) A shooting attack is a singular thing that a unit does in the shooting phase. (This is actually not what the brb says)

4) Because a unit could shoot multiple times a model must be able to.

As for 1, is it cool for my models with two pistols and a bolter to shoot 3 times in overwatch?

SRSface you know you're making a logical fallacy right and arguing RAI?

So once again more lies. This is getting tiresome:

1) with permission that you gave agreed exists

2) treating it as such is not necessary for a MC to fire 2 weapons in overwatch but does make the most sense and prevents boltgun marines from firing their boltguns, bolt pistols and grenades all at once in overwatch.

3) yes a shooting attack is singular thing. Yes you only get 1 shooting attack per unit in overwatch as covered in the Overwatch rules.

4) we are given permission to shoot our weapons we need a restriction if you want that permission to not extend to all our weapons.

By your interpretation a model with 2 pistols and a boltguns would fire 4 shots in overwatch.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What assertion? That 1 dice for a models total shooting attacks would dictate 1 weapon? That's hardly an assertion.

As for questioning permission and things the rules don't say, prove me wrong. I'm not the one that put words in your mouth, I'm just listing what you're asserting. Maybe someone better at arguing can point it out clearer in the morning.

Page 13 is talking about multiple shots from a single weapon, and you know that. It's been pointed out countless times now. It says nothing about models being restricted to a single weapon.

Without page 51, there is no rule for how many weapons a model may fire.

 liturgies of blood wrote:


SRSface you know you're making a logical fallacy right and arguing RAI?

You realise the biggest logical fallacy that has ever been made, ever, is that there is one true form to argue?

Considering every last TO ends up interpreting rules differently, "rules as worded" is meaningless. Intention is all that matters.

^Doesn't a statement like that make you mad? Statements like "you're arguing RAI" make me really mad. It's ignorance at it's finest. It's people telling me how I should play the game. Frankly I don't care how you think I should play the game. If you want to claim rules as written as the only/purest/best way to play, be my guest. Rules as written opens up tons of loopholes and the people who argue RAW tend (not always, but tend) to be the types of people who'd rather find a loophole to gain an unfair advantage on their opponent rather than play a fair game out of respect of the fact there is another human being standing across from them that put hours, weeks and months into building their army to even bring it to game in the first place. Every "rules as worded" argument is in fact a rules as intended argument, whether you see it that way or not. Also, the OP never stated the entire discussion was rules as worded, so someone coming in with a viewpoint other than that is still a thing that's allowed.

I am arguing how the rules read, by the way. I clearly read overwatch is treated "as a shooting attack" and I also clearly read MCs can fire "up to two of their weapons each shooting phase." As the shooting phase defines the rules for shooting attacks, I extrapolate that to mean how you fire your guns in the shooting phase is also how you fire your weapons in overwatch, with the additional rules entailed for overwatch. Otherwise, we have no rules for shooting attacks, really, at the end of the day.

How do you even get off with #4 there? Seriously. How do you even leap to that conclusion? People are pointing to the rule that states MCs can fire two of their guns as the reason MCs get to fire two of their guns in overwatch. Find me the rule that says basic infantry get to do it. No one ever argued basic infantry get to do it. No one was ever jumping to that conclusion, and the argument that MCs get to fire two of their guns in overwatch would never have lead people to do that. That's like saying allowing gay marriage means government should also allow bestiality. No one was ever making that argument and accusing people of going that far is pedantic.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What assertion? That 1 dice for a models total shooting attacks would dictate 1 weapon? That's hardly an assertion.

It is indeed an assertion and one not based on rules. At that point we don't know how many weapons are involved. They could be going all Ghostbusters and crossing the streams so 4 weapons is 1 shot. It makes no mention of the number of weapons a model can fire. Therefore permission to fire any of a models weapons is permission to fire them all.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So the assertions you guys have are:
1)Without permission or restriction you can fire all of your weapons.

Top of page 12:
"During the Shooding phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."
Nowhere else in the Shooting Phase section is any reference made to number of weapons. The passage on pg13 can only be termed 'descriptive' as it admits there are exceptions to the 'most' rule, and does not make any reference at all to number of weapons, but rather to number of shots.
There is no basis for extending 'most models only get to make one shot' to 'this model may make 3 shots, but can only take the 2 of them that come from 1 weapon.'

The restriction on firing multiple weapons ONLY appears on page 51, and RAW ONLY applies to the shooting phase.

2) Overwatch is a shooting phase/

Nope. We're saying that (for the purposes of MCs or Battlesuits etc firing multiple weapons, it doesn't matter.

3) A shooting attack is a singular thing that a unit does in the shooting phase. (This is actually not what the brb says)

? Nope.

4) Because a unit could shoot multiple times a model must be able to.

This doesn't really hold water, but we're only trying to adapt to your weird 'shooting attack = 1 shot with 1 weapon' rule that you've invented.

As for 1, is it cool for my models with two pistols and a bolter to shoot 3 times in overwatch?

That is the logical consequence of attempting to restrict MC's from firing two weapons on the basis that overwatch is not a shooting phase, because that simultaneously admits that the restriction on multiple weapons no longer applies.