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2014/02/11 00:00:11
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
Can we take the Kharybdis with a "Codex: Blood Angels" or "Codex: Space Marines" army?
Is a 'Crusade' army list only one from the Horus Heresy / 30K books/rules?
Well, Is an army chosen from the Blood Angels army list chosen from either a Space Marine Crusade army list or a Chaos Space Marine army list?
Is an army chosen from the Dark Angels army list?
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
Steelmage99 wrote: Well, Is an army chosen from the Blood Angels army list chosen from either a Space Marine Crusade army list or a Chaos Space Marine army list?
Is an army chosen from the Dark Angels army list?
Fair... I guess I'm asking for clarification on what a "Space Marine Crusade" list is. And for that I supposed I have to go dig into the Horus Heresy books.
If so, that means that the Kharybdis can be used in "40k" only by Codex: Chaos Space Marines... all other army's can only take it if they are building from the 30k rules?
If so, bummer!
-Justin
2014/02/11 00:33:46
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
Steelmage99 wrote: Well, Is an army chosen from the Blood Angels army list chosen from either a Space Marine Crusade army list or a Chaos Space Marine army list?
Is an army chosen from the Dark Angels army list?
Fair... I guess I'm asking for clarification on what a "Space Marine Crusade" list is. And for that I supposed I have to go dig into the Horus Heresy books.
If so, that means that the Kharybdis can be used in "40k" only by Codex: Chaos Space Marines... all other army's can only take it if they are building from the 30k rules?
If so, bummer!
-Justin
This would actually make the most fluff sense though because ifaik CSM are the only ones who still use these as holdovers from the good ol' days, modern loyalists scrapped them because of their rogue machine spirits.
“Idleness is the enemy of the soul; and therefore the brethren ought to be employed in manual labor at certain times, at others, in devout reading.”
― St. Benedict of Nursia, The Rule of Saint Benedict
The Mendicants Polaris, Chaos Warband, Deviant Sect of Word Bearers
2014/02/11 01:51:37
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
>Three engineering students were gathered together discussing who must have designed the human body.
>One said, "It was a mechanical engineer. Just look at all the joints."
>Another said, "No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has many thousands of electrical connections."
>The last one said, "No, actually it had to have been a civil engineer.
>Who else would run a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area.
2014/02/11 02:13:55
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
So could I run a 30k/heresy crusade list against...say...Taudar?
For example... If I showed up at your FLGS and pulled out a crusade list, would you respond with "OMGWTFBBQ!" or "cool, let's role dice!" ?
What about for a FLGS Saturday tourney?
I spent the $$$ on one of these things before the rules came out... Now trying to figure out if I can use it or if it'll become a display only model...
2014/02/11 02:51:00
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
alterEgo wrote: So could I run a 30k/heresy crusade list against...say...Taudar?
For example... If I showed up at your FLGS and pulled out a crusade list, would you respond with "OMGWTFBBQ!" or "cool, let's role dice!" ?
What about for a FLGS Saturday tourney?
I spent the $$$ on one of these things before the rules came out... Now trying to figure out if I can use it or if it'll become a display only model...
Not always, because in a typical game you would want ask "is it okay if I run 30k?" 30k is not 40k. So a lot of TOs might ban this.
30k is like any other FW, except it doesn't even have the "40k approved" stamp or whatever.
“Idleness is the enemy of the soul; and therefore the brethren ought to be employed in manual labor at certain times, at others, in devout reading.”
― St. Benedict of Nursia, The Rule of Saint Benedict
The Mendicants Polaris, Chaos Warband, Deviant Sect of Word Bearers
2014/02/11 02:58:41
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
The correct answer is play whatever list you want. Some people will be babies about it others will think its awesome. It is no different then someone refusing to play against a Taudar list.
The reaction will also depend on the local group. My local group loves 30k. We have around 6 people building 30k armies.
>Three engineering students were gathered together discussing who must have designed the human body.
>One said, "It was a mechanical engineer. Just look at all the joints."
>Another said, "No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has many thousands of electrical connections."
>The last one said, "No, actually it had to have been a civil engineer.
>Who else would run a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area.
2014/02/11 03:18:48
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
30k can be played with 40k seeing as they are based off the same rule set. That being said there is no balance between the two. So it's possible and I'm sure it can be fun (haven't tried myself) but I wouldn't expect balance.
2014/02/11 13:19:57
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
grendel083 wrote: 30k is great.
But it's really not designed to be mixed with 40k. Totally different balance.
There is no balance in 40k. 30k within itself is fairly well balanced. This means 30k lists normally underperform when being struck with stuff like taudar or screamer stars etc pp but who doesnt?
If you have a laid back environment with people playing fun lists as opposed to die hard tournament stuff 30k lists are perfectly fine and can pull their weight.
We had a lot of fun mixing the two so far. Friend has a mechanicum detachment for his IG and another one runs a world eaters list. We didnt encounter any horrible balance issues. At least no balance issues that werent there before.
20 man marine squads are fun as are the several weapons/models from the HH series. Dont take yourself out of the fun by banning these lists cause of "balance"!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/11 13:22:16
2014/02/11 17:05:16
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
30k is like any other FW, except it doesn't even have the "40k approved" stamp or whatever.
if by any other FW you meant perfectly usable and playable by anyone now without the need to ask then no.
as stated by others OP, 30k isn't very compatable with 40k due mostly to alot of the 30k stuff being over the top nuts even by 40k standards.
but do keep in mind that with escalation, strong hold and the updated warriors code from GW all the big toys in the forgeworld books just became open season, while there is still the scosial contrat in place between players, in a RAW enviornment they can rock up with a titan
2014/02/11 17:41:17
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
cerbrus2 wrote: When I see stuff like 30k is to over the top, makes me wonder if the people posting have even played it before.
I have several times.
Unbalanced is very accurate.
Explain how a game that lets both sides take exactly the same bulk of units is unbalanced. Different legions have different charectors and 1 or 2 different units. but the odd unit does not effect the bulk of the legions fighting. Its like saying Vanilla space marines VS Vanilla space marines is unbalanced. The only time it gets unbalanced if is player A tends to have more disposable income to spend at forge world than Player B does.
Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
2014/02/11 18:57:10
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
cerbrus2 wrote: Its like saying Vanilla space marines VS Vanilla space marines is unbalanced.
It's not even slightly like saying that. It's the very opposite.
The Legion list is designed to be used against Legion lists.
It's balaced to go against itself.
Start throwing a 40k list at it, and you'll soon see it's not balanced for that sort of use.
I've thrown my Orks against legion lists many times, for fun games and special senarios. It's seriously not balanced for mix with 40k.
At GW's official events, they have adopted a "anything goes" approach. All supplements and expansions, and forgeworld models and lists are fair game. One exception: 30k stuff. It just doesn't go with 40k.
2014/02/11 19:38:03
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
cerbrus2 wrote: Its like saying Vanilla space marines VS Vanilla space marines is unbalanced.
It's not even slightly like saying that. It's the very opposite.
The Legion list is designed to be used against Legion lists.
It's balaced to go against itself.
Start throwing a 40k list at it, and you'll soon see it's not balanced for that sort of use.
I've thrown my Orks against legion lists many times, for fun games and special senarios. It's seriously not balanced for mix with 40k.
At GW's official events, they have adopted a "anything goes" approach. All supplements and expansions, and forgeworld models and lists are fair game. One exception: 30k stuff. It just doesn't go with 40k.
Your flat wrong, 30k vs 40k while not legal (that part is correct) is not unballanced in favour of 30k, if you threw orks at a 30k army i can understand why you think this, as with things such as volkites and fury of the legion, orks get minced, now try eldar, space marines, Tau etc vs 30k and you will find its a very different story, TOTAL lack of ATSKF, Expensive units, heavy specialisation (only HW in HW squads) means that if the legion list doesnt try to build all comers he is boned pure and simple.
Now there are some things that are very good for the cost, Moriats, Legion libys (which btw have to put whatever psy table there useing BEFORE the game unlike any other 40k army) and phosphex shell medusa, but these are rare and very situational
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/11 19:39:20
2014/02/11 20:16:46
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
alterEgo wrote: Can we take the Kharybdis with a "Codex: Blood Angels" or "Codex: Space Marines" army?
Is a 'Crusade' army list only one from the Horus Heresy / 30K books/rules?
using a Space Marine Crusade army list
or a Codex: Chaos Space Marines army
Agreed with those who say its for the HH armylists. And I guess this is also the dreadclaw replacement, meaning CSM get drop pods again.
As to fielding a HH list in 40k, the HH: Betrayal says one can use the AoD FOC, but it is not balanced with 40k so it might be disadvantaged against Necrons, Taudar, C:SM, and CD. I won't go into the 'supposed OPness' of FW stuff, its all over the place like 40k (from R'Vanas and Thudd Guns compared to Knarloc herds, just like Riptides and WS compared to Flayed Ones and Ogryns).
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
2014/02/11 20:19:07
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
alterEgo wrote: Can we take the Kharybdis with a "Codex: Blood Angels" or "Codex: Space Marines" army?
Is a 'Crusade' army list only one from the Horus Heresy / 30K books/rules?
using a Space Marine Crusade army list
or a Codex: Chaos Space Marines army
Agreed with those who say its for the HH armylists. And I guess this is also the dreadclaw replacement, meaning CSM get drop pods again.
As to fielding a HH list in 40k, the HH: Betrayal says one can use the AoD FOC, but it is not balanced with 40k so it might be disadvantaged against Necrons, Taudar, C:SM, and CD. I won't go into the 'supposed OPness' of FW stuff, its all over the place like 40k (from R'Vanas and Thudd Guns compared to Knarloc herds, just like Riptides and WS compared to Flayed Ones and Ogryns).
Well Said Ace, have an exalt
2014/02/11 20:26:23
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
30k is like any other FW, except it doesn't even have the "40k approved" stamp or whatever.
if by any other FW you meant perfectly usable and playable by anyone now without the need to ask then no.
as stated by others OP, 30k isn't very compatable with 40k due mostly to alot of the 30k stuff being over the top nuts even by 40k standards.
but do keep in mind that with escalation, strong hold and the updated warriors code from GW all the big toys in the forgeworld books just became open season, while there is still the scosial contrat in place between players, in a RAW enviornment they can rock up with a titan
Except that if you run units without the "40k approved" stamp, it's perfectly reasonable for your opponent to decline a game because they haven't prepared for whatever shenanigans FW tries to pull off during this week's "let's write a unit with rules that don't even make sense and charge hundreds of dollars for it" flavor. I personally don't like arguing about vaguely written rules when our different interpretations can mean the difference between winning and losing.
I'm not a WAAC player by any stretch, but there are some very basic things FW messes up and causes people to argue about incessantly. Case in point: the old dreadclaw rules.
“Idleness is the enemy of the soul; and therefore the brethren ought to be employed in manual labor at certain times, at others, in devout reading.”
― St. Benedict of Nursia, The Rule of Saint Benedict
The Mendicants Polaris, Chaos Warband, Deviant Sect of Word Bearers
2014/02/11 20:29:07
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
30k is like any other FW, except it doesn't even have the "40k approved" stamp or whatever.
if by any other FW you meant perfectly usable and playable by anyone now without the need to ask then no.
as stated by others OP, 30k isn't very compatable with 40k due mostly to alot of the 30k stuff being over the top nuts even by 40k standards.
but do keep in mind that with escalation, strong hold and the updated warriors code from GW all the big toys in the forgeworld books just became open season, while there is still the scosial contrat in place between players, in a RAW enviornment they can rock up with a titan
I'm not a WAAC player by any stretch, but there are some very basic things FW messes up and causes people to argue about incessantly. Case in point: the old dreadclaw rules.
Good thing they cleared things up with its successor, which has both of the rules that are important to DPs, while not having to disembark the 20 models (or ten CCCSM termies ). Enjoy your T2 charge with Frag Grenades.
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
2014/02/11 22:06:50
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
Not always, because in a typical game you would want ask "is it okay if I run 30k?" 30k is not 40k. So a lot of TOs might ban this.
Read the fine print in the back of the 30k books. It's intended as a 40k supplement, just as any Imperial Armor book is. Fielding them is as legal as fielding Eldar Corsairs.
Obviously it's up to any TO to allow/deny whatever supplements they want to, and it'd be reasonable for one to ban a Crusades army. Just saying, it's in the print in the back it's intended to be used as a supplement for Warhammer 40k.
For the record, I believe a 30k army would be really hard to make competitive in the 40k tournament scene. They are just incredibly expensive points-wise. As crazy as all the abilities you'd get to do are, you'd be running really tiny armies comparatively. I think the only legion that'd be able to do it right now is Salamanders.
2014/02/11 22:19:23
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
Not always, because in a typical game you would want ask "is it okay if I run 30k?" 30k is not 40k. So a lot of TOs might ban this.
Read the fine print in the back of the 30k books. It's intended as a 40k supplement, just as any Imperial Armor book is. Fielding them is as legal as fielding Eldar Corsairs.
Obviously it's up to any TO to allow/deny whatever supplements they want to, and it'd be reasonable for one to ban a Crusades army. Just saying, it's in the print in the back it's intended to be used as a supplement for Warhammer 40k.
For the record, I believe a 30k army would be really hard to make competitive in the 40k tournament scene. They are just incredibly expensive points-wise. As crazy as all the abilities you'd get to do are, you'd be running really tiny armies comparatively. I think the only legion that'd be able to do it right now is Salamanders.
In case you weren't aware:
Spoiler:
Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?
A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.
Designer’s Note: This means that while you are, of course, free to have fun and play games against
your friends using any forces you like, and Horus Heresy forces will be broadly ‘a fair fight’ with
Codex forces of the same scale, certain rules anomalies and inconsistencies may be thrown up that
you have to deal with, although these should not seriously affect the game in most cases. (For
example, certain units, such as those with the Stubborn special rule are at a premium costing in
Horus Heresy armies over their regular Codex counterparts, owing to the results of play testing
within their own sphere.)
From FW's HHFAQ.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2014/02/11 22:44:56
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
30k is like any other FW, except it doesn't even have the "40k approved" stamp or whatever.
if by any other FW you meant perfectly usable and playable by anyone now without the need to ask then no.
as stated by others OP, 30k isn't very compatable with 40k due mostly to alot of the 30k stuff being over the top nuts even by 40k standards.
but do keep in mind that with escalation, strong hold and the updated warriors code from GW all the big toys in the forgeworld books just became open season, while there is still the scosial contrat in place between players, in a RAW enviornment they can rock up with a titan
I'm not a WAAC player by any stretch, but there are some very basic things FW messes up and causes people to argue about incessantly. Case in point: the old dreadclaw rules.
Good thing they cleared things up with its successor, which has both of the rules that are important to DPs, while not having to disembark the 20 models (or ten CCCSM termies ). Enjoy your T2 charge with Frag Grenades.
They also gave it a bunch of situational bells and whistles and made it cost more than a land raider, so I won't be enjoying anything because that's possibly even worse than the old dreadclaw. The old one sucked but at least it wasn't 260 points base cost, jesus.
“Idleness is the enemy of the soul; and therefore the brethren ought to be employed in manual labor at certain times, at others, in devout reading.”
― St. Benedict of Nursia, The Rule of Saint Benedict
The Mendicants Polaris, Chaos Warband, Deviant Sect of Word Bearers
2014/02/11 22:47:50
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
Except that if you run units without the "40k approved" stamp, it's perfectly reasonable for your opponent to decline a game because they haven't prepared for whatever shenanigans FW tries to pull off during this week's "let's write a unit with rules that don't even make sense and charge hundreds of dollars for it" flavor. I personally don't like arguing about vaguely written rules when our different interpretations can mean the difference between winning and losing.
I'm not a WAAC player by any stretch, but there are some very basic things FW messes up and causes people to argue about incessantly. Case in point: the old dreadclaw rules.
You do realize that your exact same words also describe Games Workshop in general and all of its games?
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2014/02/11 22:49:43
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
Except that if you run units without the "40k approved" stamp, it's perfectly reasonable for your opponent to decline a game because they haven't prepared for whatever shenanigans FW tries to pull off during this week's "let's write a unit with rules that don't even make sense and charge hundreds of dollars for it" flavor. I personally don't like arguing about vaguely written rules when our different interpretations can mean the difference between winning and losing.
I'm not a WAAC player by any stretch, but there are some very basic things FW messes up and causes people to argue about incessantly. Case in point: the old dreadclaw rules.
You do realize that your exact same words also describe Games Workshop in general and all of its games?
I can't say I realize that at all.
“Idleness is the enemy of the soul; and therefore the brethren ought to be employed in manual labor at certain times, at others, in devout reading.”
― St. Benedict of Nursia, The Rule of Saint Benedict
The Mendicants Polaris, Chaos Warband, Deviant Sect of Word Bearers
2014/02/11 23:39:20
Subject: Re:Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
Except that if you run units without the "40k approved" stamp, it's perfectly reasonable for your opponent to decline a game because they haven't prepared for whatever shenanigans FW tries to pull off during this week's "let's write a unit with rules that don't even make sense and charge hundreds of dollars for it" flavor. I personally don't like arguing about vaguely written rules when our different interpretations can mean the difference between winning and losing.
I'm not a WAAC player by any stretch, but there are some very basic things FW messes up and causes people to argue about incessantly. Case in point: the old dreadclaw rules.
You do realize that your exact same words also describe Games Workshop in general and all of its games?
I can't say I realize that at all.
then you need to play 40k more haha its a bloody mess of a game and ballance, at least 30k looks like it attempted to be ballanced..with 30k of course
2014/02/11 23:45:47
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
I'm not sure where everyone is getting idea that 30k is not balanced against 40k? They are very balanced.
I will admit that bellow 2000 points a 30k list will have problems against a 40k list but this is not a balance issue, but an issue that 30k is not very effective at those point levels.
>Three engineering students were gathered together discussing who must have designed the human body.
>One said, "It was a mechanical engineer. Just look at all the joints."
>Another said, "No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has many thousands of electrical connections."
>The last one said, "No, actually it had to have been a civil engineer.
>Who else would run a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area.
2014/02/12 03:07:31
Subject: Kharybdis Assault Claw - Who can Take it?
You mean that FAQ where they simply reiterated the Horus Heresy books were designed to be internally balanced to be played against itself, but said it's fine to run against 41st millenia armies, but keep in mind you will run into weird incongruent rules issues when it comes to points?
Yeah, thanks for linking that FAQ that proves exactly what I was saying.
18.000 
3.500 
8.200 
3.300 
2.400 
3.100 
5.500 
2.500 
3.200 
3.000
The Mendicants Polaris, Chaos Warband, Deviant Sect of Word Bearers 
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
). Enjoy your T2 charge with Frag Grenades.
