Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

From what I've heard, today's special ops (SEALs and their analogues in other countries) are quite smart people, well above average citizen.
as modus operandi of space marines is usually similar to that of today's special forces, it begs conclusion that they be at least as smart.
But with all that dogmas hypnotically hammered into their heads I'm not that sure...
Your thoughts?

They are smart like a computer might be, not necessarily in the same way a scientist might be.

ie.

They know tactics, logistics, etc.
They have back-up protocols and can judge a situation and change it as things demand.

But do not expect them, simply owing to being a "Space Marine", to have creative intelligence - only the kind that training imbued them with.
If anything, the most creative marines are probably slowed in that capacity due to indoctrination.

Marines don't actually have any brain-enhancing implants - they're no smarter than they were as a human.

That said, they train in combat tactics and strategy from the age of about twelve (in most chapters). When it comes to small-unit tactics, a Space Marine is up there with an SAS commander simply because of training.

Also, lol. SEALs.

Many times it has been mention that their cognative abilities are far above that of normal man. Able to take in and process vast and very complex infomation in not time at all. Basically a normal humans brain whom's brain hasn't been boosted with a whole manner of ways would have a melt down if they tried, and even most that had been would struggle. Basically SM's are fraking genius's who mostly hone their mental abilities for war.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Marines don't actually have any brain-enhancing implants - they're no smarter than they were as a human.

That said, they train in combat tactics and strategy from the age of about twelve (in most chapters). When it comes to small-unit tactics, a Space Marine is up there with an SAS commander simply because of training.

Also, lol. SEALs.

No, Astartes tend to have eidetic memories, which is a massive advantage over the common layman.

As for their education, the best comparison isn't SEALs, but Knights. Where the guardsmen and general normal humans are peasants with a basic education, the knight has access to pretty much anything he wants. If a space marine wants to practice philosophy in his free time, he certainly can and some have done so. If he wants to research medicine beyond the normal realm as an apothecary (not in the Fabius Bile sense), sure. They have access to pretty much anything they want. It's just a question of whether or not the Astartes has the drive and wants to educate himself or is content being dedicated entirely to combat.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Many times it has been mention that their cognative abilities are far above that of normal man. Able to take in and process vast and very complex infomation in not time at all. Basically a normal humans brain whom's brain hasn't been boosted with a whole manner of ways would have a melt down if they tried, and even most that had been would struggle. Basically SM's are fraking genius's who mostly hone their mental abilities for war.

I think what you're trying to describe are their auto senses which actually just filter the information coming to them in an understandable way. Like a pilot's HUD. I don't remember any instances of their thinking capabilities actually being "enhanced" in any way. If you do, feel free to correct me. I haven't read every single book, there may very well be plenty of references that I just haven't seen

from what i have seen the SM are "grown", for want of a better word, from an enhanced strand of DNA taken from the emperor. leading me to believe that they are essential better than a standard human in almost every way, physically, mentally, and psychically leading me to believe that the SM's are smarter than the average human

That's completely wrong.

Marines are normal humans who receive the following implants, none of which affect cognition:

Secondary Heart (The Maintainer) - This is the first and least difficult implant to install. The Secondary Heart increases blood supply and pumping capacity and is capable of taking over entirely should the primary heart fail. It may also pump steroids and adrenaline into the first, primary heart to give the Astartes an extra "rush" of energy on the battlefield.

Ossmodula (The Ironheart) - This implant strengthens and greatly accelerates the growth of the skeleton of a Space Marine by inducing his bones to absorb a ceramic-based mineral administered in every Astartes Neophyte's diet. Within two years after the surgery, the Space Marine's skeleton will be larger and exponentially stronger than a normal man's with growth having topped out at around 7-7.5 feet in height with an equivalent amount of skeleto-muscular mass. An Astartes' rib cage will also be fused into a solid bone plate to provide greater protection from injury for the internal organs.

Biscopea (The Forge of Strength) - Implanted into the chest cavity, this implant massively bolsters skeletomuscular development and muscle fiber density throughout the Astartes' body by unleashing a wave of human growth hormones. This gene-seed organ is commonly implanted at the same time as the Ossmodula since it is necessary to successfully regulate the Ossmodula's hormonal secretions and it will also regulate the hormonal changes caused to the new Astartes' body by many of the other gene-seed implants.

Haemastamen (The Blood Maker) - Implanted into a main blood vessel like the aorta, femoral artery or the vena cava, the Haemastamen alters an Astartes' blood's biochemical composition to carry oxygen and nutrients more efficiently. The actions of the Haemastamen turn a Space Marine's blood a brighter shade of red than that of normal humans because of its greatly increased oxygen-carrying capacity. It also acts to biochemically regulate the actions of the 2nd and 3rd gene-seed implants, the Ossmodula and Biscopea.

Larraman's Organ (The Healer) - Shaped like the human liver but only the size of a golf ball, this gene-seed organ is placed within the chest cavity and manufactures the synthetic biological cells known as Larraman Cells.These biosynthetic cells serve the same physiological purpose for an Astartes as the normal human body's platelets, serving to clot the blood lost from wounds, but they act faster, more efficiently and more effectively. When a Space Marine is wounded and incurs blood loss, Larraman Cells are released by his circulatory system, attached to the body's normal leukocytes (white blood cells). At the site of the injury, they form scar tissue in a matter of seconds, effectively preventing massive blood loss and infection of the wound. The action of this organ is one of the reasons that the Space Marines are seen as nearly invincible and so difficult to kill despite the terrible wounds they sometimes endure.

Catalepsean Node (The Unsleeping) - Implanted into the back of the cerebrum, this implant allows a Space Marine to avoid sleep, instead entering an almost comatose trance where their minds "recharge". It also allows one half of the brain to rest while the other hemisphere remains alert, thus removing the need for the unconsciousness required by normal sleep. The longest any Space Marine has ever been on active combat duty without rest is 328 hours, achieved by a squad of the Crimson Fists Kill-team during the battle against the Orks for Rynn's World.

Preomnor (The Neutraliser) - The Preomnor is essentially an organic decontamination chamber that is implanted inside the chest cavity and connected to the digestive system, above the original stomach so that no actual digestion occurrs in the Preomnor. It is capable of biochemically analyzing ingested materials and neutralizing most known biochemical and inorganic toxins. The Preomnor enables the Astartes to eat normally inedible substances and resist any poisons he may ingest.

Omophagea (The Remembrancer) - Implanted into the upper spinal cord so that it becomes a component of the central nervous system, this organ is designed to absorb information and any DNA, RNA or protein sequences related to experience or memory. This enables the Space Marine to gain information, in a survival or tactical sense, simply by eating an animal indigenous to an alien world and then experiencing some of what that creature did before its death. Over time, mutations in this implant's gene-seed have given some Chapters an unnatural craving for blood or flesh.

Multi-lung (The Imbiber) - The Multi-lung is a third lung implanted into an Astartes' pulmonary and circulatory systems in the chest cavity that is able to absorb oxygen from environments usually too poor in oxygen to allow normal human respiratory functioning. Breathing is accomplished through a sphincter implanted into the trachea, allowing all three lungs to be used at full capacity. In toxic environments, a similar muscle closes off the normal lungs, thus oxygen is absorbed exclusively by the Multi-lung, which then filters out the poisonous or toxic elements.

Occulobe (The Eye of Vengeance) - Essentially, the Occulobe is a gene-seed organ that enhances an Astartes' eyesight after being implanted along the optic nerve and connected to the retina, granting him exceptional vision and the ability to see normally in a low-light environment.

Lyman's Ear (The Sentinel) - This gene-seed organ implant renders a Space Marine immune to dizziness and motion-induced nausea, and enables an Astartes to consciously filter out "white noise" or resist other sonic attacks.

Sus-an Membrane (The Hibernator) - This implant allows a Space Marine to enter a catatonic or "suspended animation" state and is implanted within the brain near the pituitary gland as a part of the body's endocrine system. It can allow a mortally wounded Astartes to survive his injuries, and bring the metabolism to a standstill until he can receive full medical care. Only the appropriate chemical therapy or hypnotic auto-suggestion can revive a Space Marine from this state. The longest recorded period for this form of hibernation was endured by Battle-Brother Silas Err of the Dark Angels Chapter, who was in Sus-an hibernation for 567 standard years.

Melanochrome - Linked into the endocrine system via the lymphatic system, this gene-seed organ alters the pigment cells in the skin, which allows the Astartes' skin to shield him from otherwise dangerous levels of radiation and heat. Different levels of radiation cause variations of skin color in different Chapters due to mutations in the Melanochrome organ's gene-seed. This can be related to the unusually pale skin of the Blood Angels and their Successor Chapters and the dark black skin and red eyes of the Salamanders.

Oolitic Kidney (The Purifier) - This gene-seed organ works in conjunction with the Preomnor, filtering the blood to remove toxins that have been ingested or breathed into the body. However, this detoxification process renders the Astartes unconscious once it begins, so it can be very dangerous if required during combat. Under normal circumstances, the Oolitic Kidney also acts as a regulatory organ for the Astartes physiology, maintaining the efficient action of the Space Marine's advanced circulatory system and the proper functioning of his other organs, implanted or otherwise.

Neuroglottis (The Devourer) - This gene-seed organ implanted in the mouth allows an Astartes to biochemically assess a wide variety of things simply by taste or smell, biochemically testing various objects for toxicity and nutritional content, essentially determining if the substance is edible or poisonous. From poisons to chemicals to animals, a Space Marine can even track his quarry by taste or smell alone, much like the average canine bred for tracking.

Mucranoid (The Weaver) - This gene-seed organ is implanted within the central nervous system and responds to specific chemical stimuli in the environment, causing the Space Marine to secrete a waxy protein substance similar to mucus through his pores that seals his skin. The gland's operations must first be activated by an external chemical treatment, usually self-administered, before it will activate. Space Marines are cocooned in this way before they enter suspended animation, and the process can even protect them from the harshness of the vacuum and other extremes of temperature, particularly deeply frigid environments.

Betcher's Gland (The Poison Bite) - Actually consisting of 2 separate glands implanted into multiple locations inside an Astartes' mouth, including the inside of the lower lip, in the salivary glands or in the hard palette, these two glands work in tandem to transform a Space Marine's saliva into a corrosive, blinding acid when consciously triggered. An Astartes trapped behind iron bars, for example, would be able to chew his way out given a few hours. These implants' more common use is to aid in the digestion of unusually difficult or impossible things to digest, such as cellulose. In the gene-seed of several Primarchs, like that of Rogal Dorn, this organ has atrophied and is no longer as effective or has simply ceased to function entirely in the Astartes of the Chapters that use those Primarchs' gene-seed.

Progenoid Glands (The Gene-Seeds) - Implanted into both the neck and the chest cavity, these reproductive glands serve to collect, gestate and maintain the gene-seed from a Space Marine's body, and to safeguard it for the continuity of a Chapter. These organs hormonally respond to the presence of the other Astartes gene-seed implants in the body by creating germ cells with DNA identical to that of those implants through a process very similar to cellular mitosis. These germ cells grow and are stored in the Progenoid organs, much like sperm cells or egg cells are stored in the testes and ovaries of normal men and women. When properly cultured by the Apothecaries of a Space Marine Chapter, these germ cells can be gestated into each of the 19 gene-seed organs needed to create a new Space Marine. Thus, for most Astartes, their Progenoid Glands represent the only form of reproduction they will ever know, though the DNA passed on will be that of their Primarch, not their own. The neck gland can be removed after 5 years, and the chest gland after 10 years; both are then used to create new gene-seed organs for the development of the next generation of Space Marines.

The Black Carapace (Interface) - The last and possibly most important of all gene-seed implants, this neuroreactive, fibrous organic material is implanted directly under the skin in the chest area of the hardened and shell-like ribcage of the Astartes Neophyte. Invasive fibre bundles that serve as neuron connectors then grow inward from the implant and interlink with the Space Marine's central nervous system. Points pre-cut into the Carapace before its implantation by the Apothecary are effectively neural connection points, allowing an Astartes to directly interface his central nervous system with his suit of Power Armour's Machine Spirit so that the suit can provide enhanced protection and combat maneuverability unavailable to an unaltered human wearing the same armour.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Marines don't actually have any brain-enhancing implants - they're no smarter than they were as a human.

That said, they train in combat tactics and strategy from the age of about twelve (in most chapters). When it comes to small-unit tactics, a Space Marine is up there with an SAS commander simply because of training.

Also, lol. SEALs.

No, Astartes tend to have eidetic memories, which is a massive advantage over the common layman.

As for their education, the best comparison isn't SEALs, but Knights. Where the guardsmen and general normal humans are peasants with a basic education, the knight has access to pretty much anything he wants. If a space marine wants to practice philosophy in his free time, he certainly can and some have done so. If he wants to research medicine beyond the normal realm as an apothecary (not in the Fabius Bile sense), sure. They have access to pretty much anything they want. It's just a question of whether or not the Astartes has the drive and wants to educate himself or is content being dedicated entirely to combat.

Wyzilla hit the nail on the head. The eidetic memories are mentioned in several books, I just finished an Emperor's Scythes story last night that directly referenced this enhancement. I'm not exactly sure how each marine has this done to them, but I would assume it's during their indoctrination where they are taught Gothic, tactics and several other useful things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I found this quote on the wiki. The TL;DR is that their intelligence is not really adjusted, just their memory.

A Space Marine is more than just a human being with extraordinary powers. Just as their bodies receive 19 separate gene-seed implants, so their minds are altered to release the latent powers that lie within all human minds, and these are not the psychic powers of the Warp but the intrinsic . These mental powers are, if anything, more extraordinary than even the physical powers endowed by the gene-seed implants. For example, a Space Marine can control his senses and nervous system to a remarkable degree, and can consequently endure pain that would kill a normal man. A Space Marine can also think and react at lightning speeds. Memory training is an important part of the Astartes' psycho-indoctrination as well and some Space Marines develop photographic memories in the course of their psychoconditioning and hypnotherapy. Space Marines, of course, vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary to some degree, as their implants do not reshape their core neural architecture, though the hypnotherapy does act to "smooth out" many personality quirks. This indoctrination also includes psychological conditioning which is intended to reinforce a Space Marine's respect for authority and his willingness to follow orders regardless of his own desires, as well as to harden his mind to the corruptive temptations offered by Chaos. It is no exaggeration to say that many Astartes truly no longer know fear. At the end of this process, if all goes well, an adolescent human male will have been transformed into a superhuman Astartes.Yet, in many ways he will no longer truly be human, having sacrificed his own humanity so that he might protect that of others.

 bocatt wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Many times it has been mention that their cognative abilities are far above that of normal man. Able to take in and process vast and very complex infomation in not time at all. Basically a normal humans brain whom's brain hasn't been boosted with a whole manner of ways would have a melt down if they tried, and even most that had been would struggle. Basically SM's are fraking genius's who mostly hone their mental abilities for war.

I think what you're trying to describe are their auto senses which actually just filter the information coming to them in an understandable way. Like a pilot's HUD. I don't remember any instances of their thinking capabilities actually being "enhanced" in any way. If you do, feel free to correct me. I haven't read every single book, there may very well be plenty of references that I just haven't seen

In the HH book, Shadows of Treachery, the IF leading the fleet at Phall talks in the first person about being conditioned for making heads or tails of command level data that would bewilder those SM who were not. I only looked in the one book but I remember in the 5ed codex it talks of the Ultra commander doing a simular thing when holding the shrine against the Eldar. I suppose you could say their brains have only when augmented, but I read it as their brains being enhanced IMO. With 40k everyone and no one is right as it's your own take on fluff I guess.

I'd count eidactic memory and the ability to mentally react faster than others as a brain enhancement, myself. Even if there are hypothetically no direct cognitive enhancements (hypothetically), eidactic memory and a faster reacting brain probably go a looooong way towards helping the main cognitive functions indirectly as well as learning over time.

Indoctrination doesn't make you stupid, especially not when the indoctrination is correct.

It does, however, tend to make you inflexible in your thinking and unlikely/unwilling to countenance information that runs counter to your indoctrination from an objective viewpoint.

Having a eidetic memory does not make you particularly intelligent, it just gives you the ability to recall something you have seen before, like playing a memory back as if it were a movie. This, however, does not permit someone to perform critical analysis of that information, simply repeat it.

They are downright slowed for using Imperial heavy weapons and not hijacking phat Xeno tech. They are foolish for not realizing they have no hope against their Taudar overlords.

IIRC space marines can eat brains the gain knowledge...

Yeah, that was mentioned up-thread... that's not a mark of high intelligence, that's an implanted organ.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, that was mentioned up-thread... that's not a mark of high intelligence, that's an implanted organ.

True. But if they eat enough brains...

Well, again, gives them a whole lot of data, but doesn't tell them what to do with that data. So it's not really intelligence, more like an odd version of being an Idiot Savant... a whole lotta information in a brain that might not be able to make heads or tails out of it.

Hence, Squad Sergeants and Captains to do all the mental heavy lifting. This is also supported by the fact that the Horus Heresy happened from the top down. The Primarch rebelled, so the Captains under him rebelled, and the Sergeants under them rebelled and the Battle-Brothers under them rebelled. Rare was it that someone stopped and said, "Wait... why are we doing this again?"

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, again, gives them a whole lot of data, but doesn't tell them what to do with that data. So it's not really intelligence, more like an odd version of being an Idiot Savant... a whole lotta information in a brain that might not be able to make heads or tails out of it.

Hence, Squad Sergeants and Captains to do all the mental heavy lifting. This is also supported by the fact that the Horus Heresy happened from the top down. The Primarch rebelled, so the Captains under him rebelled, and the Sergeants under them rebelled and the Battle-Brothers under them rebelled. Rare was it that someone stopped and said, "Wait... why are we doing this again?"

A bit like computers when you think about it. Lots of information, but can't use it.

"space marines Excel at war because they were designed to excel at everything"
Roboute Guilian

To repeat my post from the last thread on this topic:

It really depends on how you define intelligence.

If you wanted to look at Gardner's nine types of intelligence, for instance, you'd see huge differences between the categories. In comparison with most humans, Space Marines would be far below average in their Existential and Interpersonal intelligence levels. In other areas, they would be at the height of the human scale. (Body-kinesthetic, notably.)

Here's a breakdown. Areas a Space Marine might be above average in are marked in green. Below average, in red. Average, in yellow.

1. Naturalist Intelligence (“Nature Smart”) - Designates the human ability to discriminate among living things (plants, animals) as well as sensitivity to other features of the natural world (clouds, rock configurations). This ability was clearly of value in our evolutionary past as hunters, gatherers, and farmers; it continues to be central in such roles as botanist or chef. It is also speculated that much of our consumer society exploits the naturalist intelligences, which can be mobilized in the discrimination among cars, sneakers, kinds of makeup, and the like.

The ability to discern enemies who are sick, wounded, or who have broken morale would fall under here. It behooves Marines to excel in this regard when fighting alongside allies, to discern who is most likely to break, and who is the most capable of handling tasks independently of them.

2. Musical Intelligence (“Musical Smart”) - Musical intelligence is the capacity to discern pitch, rhythm, timbre, and tone. This intelligence enables us to recognize, create, reproduce, and reflect on music, as demonstrated by composers, conductors, musicians, vocalist, and sensitive listeners. Interestingly, there is often an affective connection between music and the emotions; and mathematical and musical intelligences may share common thinking processes. Young adults with this kind of intelligence are usually singing or drumming to themselves. They are usually quite aware of sounds others may miss.

Other than their heightened senses, a Marine has very little use for this kind of intelligence.

3. Logical-Mathematical Intelligence (Number/Reasoning Smart) - Logical-mathematical intelligence is the ability to calculate, quantify, consider propositions and hypotheses, and carry out complete mathematical operations. It enables us to perceive relationships and connections and to use abstract, symbolic thought; sequential reasoning skills; and inductive and deductive thinking patterns. Logical intelligence is usually well developed in mathematicians, scientists, and detectives. Young adults with lots of logical intelligence are interested in patterns, categories, and relationships. They are drawn to arithmetic problems, strategy games and experiments.

Marines likely are no different from humans in this scale. The ones who excel are more likely to become leaders, it would seem.

4. Existential Intelligence - Sensitivity and capacity to tackle deep questions about human existence, such as the meaning of life, why do we die, and how did we get here.

The IoM has little use for this sort of thinking.

5. Interpersonal Intelligence (People Smart”) - Interpersonal intelligence is the ability to understand and interact effectively with others. It involves effective verbal and nonverbal communication, the ability to note distinctions among others, sensitivity to the moods and temperaments of others, and the ability to entertain multiple perspectives. Teachers, social workers, actors, and politicians all exhibit interpersonal intelligence. Young adults with this kind of intelligence are leaders among their peers, are good at communicating, and seem to understand others’ feelings and motives.

Marines who excel here are, again, likely to become good leaders, although it doesn't seem that they would necessarily be any better or worse than regular people in this regard.

6. Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence (“Body Smart”) - Bodily kinesthetic intelligence is the capacity to manipulate objects and use a variety of physical skills. This intelligence also involves a sense of timing and the perfection of skills through mind–body union. Athletes, dancers, surgeons, and craftspeople exhibit well-developed bodily kinesthetic intelligence.

And here the Marine excels! Anyone chosen to become a Marine almost undoubtedly had an above average level of intelligence in this area, and the training and implants of his transformation would only enhance it.

7. Linguistic Intelligence (Word Smart) - Linguistic intelligence is the ability to think in words and to use language to express and appreciate complex meanings. Linguistic intelligence allows us to understand the order and meaning of words and to apply meta-linguistic skills to reflect on our use of language. Linguistic intelligence is the most widely shared human competence and is evident in poets, novelists, journalists, and effective public speakers. Young adults with this kind of intelligence enjoy writing, reading, telling stories or doing crossword puzzles.

Those with a great reverence for an oral tradition, such as Space Wolves, may excel here (meaning that there is one area where Space Wolves are smarter than most of the others!) but on the whole, this area of intelligence does not hold much that is of a benefit to the Marines.

8. Intra-personal Intelligence (Self Smart”) - Intra-personal intelligence is the capacity to understand oneself and one’s thoughts and feelings, and to use such knowledge in planning and directioning one’s life. Intra-personal intelligence involves not only an appreciation of the self, but also of the human condition. It is evident in psychologist, spiritual leaders, and philosophers. These young adults may be shy. They are very aware of their own feelings and are self-motivated.

It seems to track that willpower is closely linked to this area, and it seems likely a Marine would be ahead of the curve here. Librarians and Chaplains even more so.

9. Spatial Intelligence (“Picture Smart”) - Spatial intelligence is the ability to think in three dimensions. Core capacities include mental imagery, spatial reasoning, image manipulation, graphic and artistic skills, and an active imagination. Sailors, pilots, sculptors, painters, and architects all exhibit spatial intelligence. Young adults with this kind of intelligence may be fascinated with mazes or jigsaw puzzles, or spend free time drawing or daydreaming.

Battlefield strategy would involve this facet quite a bit, so it tracks that a Marine would have above average intelligence here. Those who excel in three dimensional assaults (jump pack veterans, land speeder pilots, bikers) would likely excel here as well. Some of the most gifted void combat specialists have been Marines. (Vandred, the Exalted, of Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords series, would have had a near-genius level of intellect in this area.)

In any event, I hope that helps expand the issue to include some additional frames of reference.

Huh. I just realized that they have three below, three average, and three above. Guess they're pretty average after all.

 Ratliker wrote:
From what I've heard, today's special ops (SEALs and their analogues in other countries) are quite smart people, well above average citizen.
as modus operandi of space marines is usually similar to that of today's special forces, it begs conclusion that they be at least as smart.
But with all that dogmas hypnotically hammered into their heads I'm not that sure...
Your thoughts?

Marines have an eidetic memory + the ability to filter information quickly due to their enhanced senses.

These things aid intelligence they do not make you intelligent.

The fact that potential recruits have to survive all kinds of tests before they become aspirants should ensure that all Astartes are some of the strongest, smartest humans on their world. If they weren't intelligent, they would not be able to pass those tests. Marines are already the best of the best before they get recruited, and then they are made even better. So yes, Marines should be some of the smartest individuals in the IoM.

Also, as has been mentioned in this thread before, dogma and indoctrination do not make you stupid. They make you inflexible in your thinking, but not any less intelligent.

Normal human intelligence, tempered by years of combat experience.

Nothing Space Marines have that boosts reaction speed and critical thinking ability is unique to them; that is to say, they do not have any sort of biological brain-enhancer.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The fact that potential recruits have to survive all kinds of tests before they become aspirants should ensure that all Astartes are some of the strongest, smartest humans on their world.

No it doesn't.

It ensures that they are some of the strongest, smartest humans on their world, aside from half the population that is female, and aside from the large number of the population that is too old to become an Astartes, and aside from the just plain unlucky ones that weren't picked for testing, and aside from the ones that simply don't have the genetics to be compatible with the Astartes, and so on and so forth with a billion other "aside from"s.

Astartes pick the best out of a very small and very limited portion of a very small number of worlds. They do not pick "the best" in any other definition of the term, because their restrictions are too great. A large number of intelligent, strong, capable people are passed over by Astartes recruitment for entirely arbitrary reasons. The Imperial Guard picks more of "the best" than the Astartes chapters do.

 Jimsolo wrote:
To repeat my post from the last thread on this topic:

It really depends on how you define intelligence.

If you wanted to look at Gardner's nine types of intelligence, for instance, you'd see huge differences between the categories. In comparison with most humans, Space Marines would be far below average in their Existential and Interpersonal intelligence levels. In other areas, they would be at the height of the human scale. (Body-kinesthetic, notably.)

Here's a breakdown. Areas a Space Marine might be above average in are marked in green. Below average, in red. Average, in yellow.

1. Naturalist Intelligence (“Nature Smart”) - Designates the human ability to discriminate among living things (plants, animals) as well as sensitivity to other features of the natural world (clouds, rock configurations). This ability was clearly of value in our evolutionary past as hunters, gatherers, and farmers; it continues to be central in such roles as botanist or chef. It is also speculated that much of our consumer society exploits the naturalist intelligences, which can be mobilized in the discrimination among cars, sneakers, kinds of makeup, and the like.

The ability to discern enemies who are sick, wounded, or who have broken morale would fall under here. It behooves Marines to excel in this regard when fighting alongside allies, to discern who is most likely to break, and who is the most capable of handling tasks independently of them.

2. Musical Intelligence (“Musical Smart”) - Musical intelligence is the capacity to discern pitch, rhythm, timbre, and tone. This intelligence enables us to recognize, create, reproduce, and reflect on music, as demonstrated by composers, conductors, musicians, vocalist, and sensitive listeners. Interestingly, there is often an affective connection between music and the emotions; and mathematical and musical intelligences may share common thinking processes. Young adults with this kind of intelligence are usually singing or drumming to themselves. They are usually quite aware of sounds others may miss.

Other than their heightened senses, a Marine has very little use for this kind of intelligence.

3. Logical-Mathematical Intelligence (Number/Reasoning Smart) - Logical-mathematical intelligence is the ability to calculate, quantify, consider propositions and hypotheses, and carry out complete mathematical operations. It enables us to perceive relationships and connections and to use abstract, symbolic thought; sequential reasoning skills; and inductive and deductive thinking patterns. Logical intelligence is usually well developed in mathematicians, scientists, and detectives. Young adults with lots of logical intelligence are interested in patterns, categories, and relationships. They are drawn to arithmetic problems, strategy games and experiments.

Marines likely are no different from humans in this scale. The ones who excel are more likely to become leaders, it would seem.

4. Existential Intelligence - Sensitivity and capacity to tackle deep questions about human existence, such as the meaning of life, why do we die, and how did we get here.

The IoM has little use for this sort of thinking.

5. Interpersonal Intelligence (People Smart”) - Interpersonal intelligence is the ability to understand and interact effectively with others. It involves effective verbal and nonverbal communication, the ability to note distinctions among others, sensitivity to the moods and temperaments of others, and the ability to entertain multiple perspectives. Teachers, social workers, actors, and politicians all exhibit interpersonal intelligence. Young adults with this kind of intelligence are leaders among their peers, are good at communicating, and seem to understand others’ feelings and motives.

Marines who excel here are, again, likely to become good leaders, although it doesn't seem that they would necessarily be any better or worse than regular people in this regard.

6. Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence (“Body Smart”) - Bodily kinesthetic intelligence is the capacity to manipulate objects and use a variety of physical skills. This intelligence also involves a sense of timing and the perfection of skills through mind–body union. Athletes, dancers, surgeons, and craftspeople exhibit well-developed bodily kinesthetic intelligence.

And here the Marine excels! Anyone chosen to become a Marine almost undoubtedly had an above average level of intelligence in this area, and the training and implants of his transformation would only enhance it.

7. Linguistic Intelligence (Word Smart) - Linguistic intelligence is the ability to think in words and to use language to express and appreciate complex meanings. Linguistic intelligence allows us to understand the order and meaning of words and to apply meta-linguistic skills to reflect on our use of language. Linguistic intelligence is the most widely shared human competence and is evident in poets, novelists, journalists, and effective public speakers. Young adults with this kind of intelligence enjoy writing, reading, telling stories or doing crossword puzzles.

Those with a great reverence for an oral tradition, such as Space Wolves, may excel here (meaning that there is one area where Space Wolves are smarter than most of the others!) but on the whole, this area of intelligence does not hold much that is of a benefit to the Marines.

8. Intra-personal Intelligence (Self Smart”) - Intra-personal intelligence is the capacity to understand oneself and one’s thoughts and feelings, and to use such knowledge in planning and directioning one’s life. Intra-personal intelligence involves not only an appreciation of the self, but also of the human condition. It is evident in psychologist, spiritual leaders, and philosophers. These young adults may be shy. They are very aware of their own feelings and are self-motivated.

It seems to track that willpower is closely linked to this area, and it seems likely a Marine would be ahead of the curve here. Librarians and Chaplains even more so.

9. Spatial Intelligence (“Picture Smart”) - Spatial intelligence is the ability to think in three dimensions. Core capacities include mental imagery, spatial reasoning, image manipulation, graphic and artistic skills, and an active imagination. Sailors, pilots, sculptors, painters, and architects all exhibit spatial intelligence. Young adults with this kind of intelligence may be fascinated with mazes or jigsaw puzzles, or spend free time drawing or daydreaming.

Battlefield strategy would involve this facet quite a bit, so it tracks that a Marine would have above average intelligence here. Those who excel in three dimensional assaults (jump pack veterans, land speeder pilots, bikers) would likely excel here as well. Some of the most gifted void combat specialists have been Marines. (Vandred, the Exalted, of Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords series, would have had a near-genius level of intellect in this area.)

In any event, I hope that helps expand the issue to include some additional frames of reference.

Huh. I just realized that they have three below, three average, and three above. Guess they're pretty average after all.

This is quite interesting, though I'd dispute two. Firstly, some marine chapters but not all have a high aptitude for the arts, it only makes sense that some of those arts would be musical, and well, natural musical talent would come to the forefront here. Secondly, whilst most of it is applicable, I imagine any space marine could become an adequate to high rhythmic musician. I only state this, because of the nature of combat and mainly hand to hand and then again the nature of most martial arts which it can be assumed marines learn and master as part of their training.

The body is accustomed to working within a rhythm, and constant practice of this only enhances this ability. Now, being able to understand rhythm, and the complexity of some especially when combined with tempo would help any warrior become accustomed to their opponent, a guardsmen may fight in 4/4 but an eldar may fight within a complex rhythm such as 13/16 that the marine must adjust to in order to parry, dodge and attack, and then the eldar warrior may switch rhythms on a regular basis to confuse the opponent, meaning the opponent would then have to re-adjust. Just a few thoughts anyway.

Every single bit of fluff has them being able to better process information. So how anyone arguing they aren't enhanced is ridiculous. They also all have eidetic memories.

Having their body work better would increase brain function anyway

They are not on par with humans. Anyone in the thread saying that is ignoring every bit of fluff about it

jakejackjake wrote:
Every single bit of fluff has them being able to better process information. So how anyone arguing they aren't enhanced is ridiculous. They also all have eidetic memories.

Having their body work better would increase brain function anyway

They are not on par with humans. Anyone in the thread saying that is ignoring every bit of fluff about it

Being able to process information is different than being able to use it. That's the problem I see here. You can have all the information in the world and the ability to quickly process information, but if you don't know how to use it you are still about as smart as a comatose sheep.

There is a vast differences between having information and processing it. The way it's talked about in the fluff is that space marines tend to be closer to on par with the greatest members of humanity

jakejackjake wrote:
There is a vast differences between having information and processing it. The way it's talked about in the fluff is that space marines tend to be closer to on par with the greatest members of humanity

All we're saying is, there is no part of the Space Marine's altered physiology that affects their cognitive functions. I even quoted verbatim the document that states exactly what each and ever Marine enhancement is and does. Of all of them, the only ones that affect the brain are the Catalepsean Node (affects sleep and mental fatigue), the Omophagea (allows information to be gleaned from food), the Sus-an Membrane (allows the Marine to switch off his brain to hibernate) and the Black Carapace (which is an interface).

None of those actually make them any smarter, which means that any mental improvements are purely psychological or indoctrination based. Marines have highly trained brains, but they do not have post-human brains.

Also, not every bit of fluff has them able to process information better.

Plenty of fluff has them being morons after all

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The fact that potential recruits have to survive all kinds of tests before they become aspirants should ensure that all Astartes are some of the strongest, smartest humans on their world. If they weren't intelligent, they would not be able to pass those tests. Marines are already the best of the best before they get recruited, and then they are made even better. So yes, Marines should be some of the smartest individuals in the IoM.

Also, as has been mentioned in this thread before, dogma and indoctrination do not make you stupid. They make you inflexible in your thinking, but not any less intelligent.

Cunning is a type of intelligence, but not necessarily an academic sort. People from Fenris, for example, might have cunning and a sort of feral wisdom... but these are Vikings living in nomadic tribes on a frozen planet that frequently has meteor storms and its land-masses sink into the oceans as new ones arise. They don't have the infrastructure for academic pursuits. Fenris *is* a Feral World, after all, populated by Iron Age barbarians.

Does that make the Space Wolves "intelligent"? Not really. They behave tactically, which is a sort of "military intelligent", but you don't see them synthesizing new theories of physics and quantum models based on their experiences on the battlefield.

As Jimsolo posted, there's a variety of different kinds of intelligence, and it would help to know what is meant by the question "Are Space Marines intelligent?" The answer is "yes, sort of", but few, if any, of them are an Einstein or a Hawking.