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Melissia wrote:Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
Why would their augmentations need to be identical to Space Marines? Why would augmentations make them less cool? How is the use of Faith any different from the use of augments? Both are simply buffs that allow the individual to perform superhuman feats in combat.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Melissia wrote: Part of what makes Sisters so awesome is that they stand up to Space Marines, wiping out entire chapters, WITHOUT the augmentations of the Space Marines.
Just because you view Sisters as female space marine equivalents doesn't mean that everyone does.
I don't understand why they don't simply retcon SoB into having augmentations or having a better ability to interface with and utilize their power armor.
Just ending it now before there is anymore confusion.
And yes, I agree. Decking Sisters out in augments would reduce some of their appeal. They are meant to use their faith to be en par with Space Marines. That is what makes them unique, and giving them enhancements would undermine that. They would then just be female space marines, and we already have enough variants of those.
Just my two cents, but I think in terms of physical abilities SoB should remain inferior to Space Marines, but stronger and faster than anything a non-augmented human can achieve. SoB should be on par with Space Marines in terms of fighting skill. Faith based abilities should allow them surpass or equal Space Marines temporarily. Something akin to a jolt of adrenaline, but without the post adrenaline fatigue. I don't understand the argument against them being augmented. Why not take away their power armor and bolters as well? Give them nothing more than the most basic of the IG kit. Won't that make them even more impressive? Hell, why not reduce them to loincloths and sharpened sticks? That Canoness' Faith is astounding! She just drove a pointy twig through 3" of reinforced Terminator Armor!!! Emperor be praised!
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
trexmeyer wrote: Why would their augmentations need to be identical to Space Marines? Why would augmentations make them less cool? How is the use of Faith any different from the use of augments?
Even if different in the specific sense, any Sister-specific augment would be the same as a SM one generally speaking. The important distinction here is external/internal. Augments, of whatever kind, are external. Faith is internal. What makes a SM powerful is added. What makes a SoB powerful in inherent.
trexmeyer wrote: Why not take away their power armor and bolters as well? Give them nothing more than the most basic of the IG kit.
Sure. But it would also deaden the intended contrast between SM and SoB. The message is, both have PA and both have bolters but only one has augmentation and only the other has this bizarre transcendent faith.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 20:10:33
Astartes are not augmented before puberty. That almost never happens anywhere, as all newly taken neophytes by the Chapter range from their late teens to early twenties, and no Chapter I can even think of recruits twelve year olds. I don't even know where this came from, considering it literally NEVER happens.
This image disagrees with you.
Marines start between 10 and 14 years of age. A common Marine recruitment style is to round up all the likely lads of the right age and put them in a pit together, then order them to fight to the death under the watchful gaze of a Chaplain, who may or may not have a Librarian assisting him.
The survivors are then recruited as Marines.
Of course, the Space Wolves do things differently.
Actually, recruitment methods are vastly different for every Space Marine chapter, not just the Space Wolves. The generalised making a new space marine process as I understand it is: 1. A chapter recruits a world's best young men as aspirants. 2. During their time as aspirants, they have to prove themselves in tests and challenges of increasing difficulty. 3. The aspirants who prove themselves worthy become neophytes and receive their first implants. 4. After the implantation process is complete the neophyte is assigned to a scout squad. 5. After a scout has proven himself in combat he becomes a full battle-brother of the chapter. As implantation only begins after an aspirant has proven himself worthy by completing the chapter's tests, and most chapters have tests that would be impossible to complete for children, it makes sense that implantations for most chapters would only begin in the late teens at earliest. In any case, Wyzilla was still mostly right, as puberty already begins at 11.
On topic: I still think female space marines are a horrible idea. If you want girls in your army, just run with one of the armies that have female models or pray that GW updates the SoB kits.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 20:17:04
Bah. You Marine players just can't handle the truth.
Marines recruit children and turn them into monsters.
You aren't the heroes.
You aren't the good guys.
You're just the best example of the monstrous lengths the Imperium has to go to just to survive.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Marines recruit children and turn them into monsters.
You aren't the heroes.
You aren't the good guys.
You're just the best example of the monstrous lengths the Imperium has to go to just to survive.
Couldn't agree more. There are no truly good factions in 40k. Even the Tau are rulers and conquerers even though they consider their methods somewhat benign. Each race does what is good for themselves and that is all. I think the best one can hope for in the 40k is being most honest with oneself, and in that regard only the orks really fulfill that ideal. They just want to fight. They don't do it to make the galaxy safer for ork kind, or to advance the ork race. They do it because THEY LIKE IT and that is good enough for them.
Skriker
CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War
I'm not so sure about female marines but I do think the whole 40k universe misses out because GW largely ignore females in general.
I know that's a little bit of a generalization but I think some of the most interesting characters in BL have been females. The general in the new scars book or the sharp shooter in the last chancers I remember as particularly striking.
GW focus on the boys and their war stories which is great but really good stories only come about when you get a complete society represented and that includes the ladies.
Furyou Miko wrote: You're just the best example of the monstrous lengths the Imperium has to go to just to survive.
It's worse than that. SM don't exist because things are so bad but rather things are so bad, at least in very large part, because SM exist.
Oh freaking ZING
Completely true. The Horus Heresy happened because Marines existed and were given too much political and military power.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 20:38:30
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Furyou Miko wrote: You're just the best example of the monstrous lengths the Imperium has to go to just to survive.
It's worse than that. SM don't exist because things are so bad but rather things are so bad, at least in very large part, because SM exist.
Oh freaking ZING
Completely true. The Horus Heresy happened because Marines existed and were given too much political and military power.
Hmm. Yep, I can see that. Don't normally look at it from that angle. Since the Horus Heresy books came out, I find it hard to think of anything 40k related as having happened before around M.36 - everything else is 30k.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Wyzilla wrote: You're from Britain. In America, adolescent is interchangeable with late teenage years, same with youth. Thirteen and younger is typically refereed to as a child.
.
To your comment on adolsecent being interchangeable with late teenage years in America, um...no it isn't. Adolescent is a mid aged child, not a late teen. Adolescence starts around 8-9 and through about 12 where the "teen" label gets applied at 13.
Of course this is neither here nor there with respect to the original topic, but your "American" position on age and the labels applied and when they are applied, does not jibe with my own "American" position on the subject.
Skriker
Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Adolescent is generally, in my experience, used to refer to anyone who is 12-15 years old or so, but that's a colloquial use. The actual definition of the word, though, means anyone who is undergoing the transition from child to adult... so, it could be anyone roughly 8 to 17, but is noted has having begun puberty.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
You seem to be the only one here who follows that definition...
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
You seem to be the only one here who follows that definition...
American consists of fifty major cultures, which even then can be further divided up. It may just be a Californian thing/Northern Cali thing.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
You seem to be the only one here who follows that definition...
American consists of fifty major cultures, which even then can be further divided up. It may just be a Californian thing/Northern Cali thing.
So, does this mean you're willing to admit that your interpretation isn't the one intended by the author?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
That's it. I demand male Sisters of Battle. It's unfair that they are all women.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote: That's it. I demand male Sisters of Battle. It's unfair that they are all women.
They have existed in the lore. They were called the Frateris Templar.
They were also wiped out during the Age of Apostasy and are now illegal, but there's nothing stopping you from playing the descendants of the survivors, a heretic sect, a chaos sect, et cetera.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/12 21:41:39
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I agree with Wyzilla in that I have never heard any American anywhere use the word adolescent to refer to someone younger than, say, 12. That said, I haven't talked to all the Americans.
Manchu wrote: I agree with Wyzilla in that I have never heard any American anywhere use the word adolescent to refer to someone younger than, say, 12. That said, I haven't talked to all the Americans.
I've never heard adolescent refer to a seventeen year old until now, and I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Wyzilla wrote: Where the hell do you live then in the states? Youth and adolescent are used interchangeably here, and almost never applied to 13 and younger, who are just children. The only difference is that youth typically is 16+.
Sorry mate, but "the hell" where I live in the US doesn't really matter all that matters is that it apparently is not where the hell you live in the states. In my neck of the woods you can use youth and adolescent interchangably, but primarily for kids ranging from about 9-12. While adolesence itself runs from the start of puberty to full physical maturity, there are no set age ranges on that, and in my neck of the woods "adolescents" are in the 9-12 year old range, with teen being the more common term once 13, the first "teen" number, is hit in age. Anyone under the age of 18 is a child, or a youth, though those from about 15-18 are more likely called teen or youth so as to not offend their growing identities and sensibilities to not be refered to as children anymore. Of course YMMV as, even at 46, in some circles my mother still introduces me as here baby, since I am the youngest of her children. You made an all encompassing "This is how it is in America" post and I made one that made it clear that "No it isn't." As with anything else such designations can be as regional as the difference between grinders, hoagies and subs.
Of course your apparent offense in this response is even more amusing when you add in the fact that your first post was trying to apply "american" definitions of such things to books and rules written by people in the UK and not by Americans. I guess you could get away with that if refering to anything Jeremy Vetock has written since he moved across the pond as he was born here in the states. He was the store manager in the Philly GW when it first opened up a good 25 or so years ago.
Skriker
CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War
Melissia wrote: I've never heard adolescent refer to a seventeen year old until now, and I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
Texans aren't Americans. That's like saying Gauls are Romans. From the usage I've heard, seventeen is not too old for the word adolescent. Then again, I don't think this debate has much actual relevance to the topic or even the particular tangent concerning SM recruitment.
Manchu wrote: I agree with Wyzilla in that I have never heard any American anywhere use the word adolescent to refer to someone younger than, say, 12. That said, I haven't talked to all the Americans.
I've never heard adolescent refer to a seventeen year old until now, and I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
Don't let Frazzled see that.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Melissia wrote: I've never heard adolescent refer to a seventeen year old until now, and I'm by far the most American person here, since I'm from Texas.
Texans aren't Americans.
We're by far the most American state here!
Why, I even own an awesome American flag!
Here's one just like it!
See? I'm totes American.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
AegisGrimm wrote: That's it. I demand male Sisters of Battle. It's unfair that they are all women.
They have existed in the lore. They were called the Frateris Templar.
They were also wiped out during the Age of Apostasy and are now illegal, but there's nothing stopping you from playing the descendants of the survivors, a heretic sect, a chaos sect, et cetera.
You need a psychiatrist or a dictionary.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
I was ignoring the poor grammar and semantics that you used and tried to approach from what you seemed to mean; Manchu was not so patient. Get over it.
Do you have an actual response?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/12 21:52:00
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
You see, I just assumed Mr. Grimm was being facetious about the idea of female Space Marines...
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
CSM 6k points 
CSM 4k points
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Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
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2.3k
EAT - SLEEP - FARM - REPEAT 
~1660
