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When people talk about female Space Marines who would look exactly like male Space Marines, I can't help but think of Gimli...
Automatically Appended Next Post: But if your vision of a Space Marine female is the same as a Space Marine male... why not just call all your Space Marines female and be done with it
Space Wolves don't have successor chapters... doesn't stop people from making up successor chapters for them if that's their vision.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/02/13 15:13:30
If anyone here thinks that abuse of hormone treatment can not change a person than I urge them to look at pictures of female Olympic athletes from East Germany these women were so heavily doped up that their physical appearance changed drastically where some of them you could hardly tell were female, and this was done in the seventies and eighties, now take a young girl who has not his puberty and pump them full of testosterone and other biological and chemical agents and various other surgical argumentation and the skeletal structure of the women would change and adapt just like the rest of their bodies. Also far as I know space marines still have their genitals and according to the Demon Codex possibly still have some desires for the opposite sex.
Most of those women might look manly, but compared to the men in the same fields, they still look mostly womanly, lol.
But still, those doped up women who looked like men genuinely started taking on male traits. They weren't just big burly women, even their faces started to look more masculine.
So I imagine if you went to all the trouble of juicing up, genetically modifying, etc etc a female to turn her in to a Space Marine... she'd genuinely look like a dude. Not like a burly female, not like a dude with a woman's face, she'd actually look like a man.
So if that's your vision of a female Space Marine, then just call all your marines girly names and move on with your life, lol.
Personally I'm not a fan of the idea of slender and delicate looking female Space Marines.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Most of those women might look manly, but compared to the men in the same fields, they still look mostly womanly, lol.
But still, those doped up women who looked like men genuinely started taking on male traits. They weren't just big burly women, even their faces started to look more masculine.
So I imagine if you went to all the trouble of juicing up, genetically modifying, etc etc a female to turn her in to a Space Marine... she'd genuinely look like a dude. Not like a burly female, not like a dude with a woman's face, she'd actually look like a man.
So if that's your vision of a female Space Marine, then just call all your marines girly names and move on with your life, lol.
Personally I'm not a fan of the idea of slender and delicate looking female Space Marines.
Basically this. Boobplate just goes against the impression I want from Marines.
A Marine is supposed to be massive juggernaut of a warrior, that's why I like them.
Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap. Astartes are just fantasy knights in space, but at least in Brettonia woman could be a knight and wear plate if she felt like it. Changing 25+years of fluff to justify a head swap seems like a bit too much work.
My wife would be just fine playing my Sisters of Battle, especially after she came to the conclusion that the imagery of the Sisters can be taken as deliberately oversexed (boob plates, etc) to force the image home that they are flaunting the rule of "no men under arms", while burning everything in the Emperor's name. Showing that the ecclesiarchy can simply, blatantly sidestep one of the largest rules against them if they want to, because they are that powerful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/13 22:13:37
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Is something GW does every codex release, so I don't really see that as something I care about.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Is something GW does every codex release, so I don't really see that as something I care about.
There's a difference between how fundamental fluff is. Like it or not, that only male Marines exist is one of the longest-standing and most stable facts. It can still be retconned at a whim of course... But while anything can change a la Necron for all we know, it does not seem likely given that it was to increase the popularity of the Necrons, a problem the SM do not have.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/13 23:53:42
Space MArines having penises is not fundamental to their design.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Space MArines having penises is not fundamental to their design.
Yes it is.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
There's no reason why you couldn't have female marines other than contradicting the long standing tradition. The Imperium may very well *have* the ability to make them and simply not because they're so scientifically ignorant they think it simply won't work on women.
That said if you were to start recruiting women a) there's no reason to eschew men. The chapter would be a mix of genders and b) the physiological changes to their bodies would be so severe (marines have massive testosterone levels for obvious reasons) they'd likely be almost indistinguishable from their male counterparts even outside of armour.
It is also easy to believe that the top 0.1% (those that get a look in for recruitment) are so overwhelmingly consistently male that it's simply easier to just pick from that lot. Any way you slice it on the tabletop there'd be no difference.
Space MArines having penises is not fundamental to their design.
Technically it is.
Or well, we do not know if they actually keep them. But Space Marines are at least born men, and remain male to a degree even if we do not know if they get their manparts removed. (Which they logically should.)
Whether that is a wise decision or not is another discussion entirely.
But they have been male from the start, and they have always been male outside of fanfics.
It doesn't get much more fundamental than that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 02:13:23
Melissia wrote: I interpreted that last post as "I cannot imagine a large framed, genetically augmented woman therefor no one can". Which really just made my eyes roll, that's more your problem than mine. I can very easily think of such a thing. It's really not all that hard, especially since we're talking about a science fiction wherein plenty of illogical, unscientific things happen on a minute by minute basis. Hell, I did it in Shadowrun (and she was Human, not Troll), and that's a setting that didn't have half the fantastic stuff 40k has.
And considering we're talking about taking preteens and pumping them full of hormones and chemicals to artificially enhance their growth patterns and make them in to bulky, unreasonably large killing machines, before implanting various artificial organs to enhance their biological process... yet you're looking at the skeleton of a normal human adult? I'd like to point out that Space Marines are not normal or humans post-recruitment, and they aren't adults pre-recruitment, so that comparison simply doesn't work.
That and the development of their bones is hijacked to ensure they develop skeletons with the composition closest to a ceramic-like material capable of flat deflecting rounds off it and have a fused/segmented ribcage. The only difference with any female space marines in the bone structure area would be them having pauldrons closer to their head and maybe wider hips.
What I really would like however is a redesign of Sisters of Battle, because it's just the boobplate that has always annoyed me, and I like the duality and love/hate relationship between the two branches, Astartes and Sororitas- pretty much like bickering siblings.
And just to prevent the discussion on Astartes genitals, yes, Salamanders had families in the old fluff. This hasn't been touched on at all since with no contradictions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 02:18:33
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Their sex doesn't have anything to do with their core concept, though. Maybe you could argue that them all being the same sex does, but then saying adding women to a chapter would suddenly make them sexual doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense unless the Space Marines don't recruit gay guys.
When people say "female Space Marines" I tend to imagine an entire chapter that only recruits women.
Is there anyone who would actually not play against someone because their sergeants or chapter master or whatever had converted heads, though? I'm pretty sure if I turned up with some pastel-coloured Space Marines with converted heads for the un-helmeted ones and was standing in front of someone asking if they wanted to play a game then they'd have to be a real jerk of the highest order to actually say they wouldn't play with me because of it, even if they'd post on a forum that they didn't like the concept.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Their sex doesn't have anything to do with their core concept, though. Maybe you could argue that them all being the same sex does, but then saying adding women to a chapter would suddenly make them sexual doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense unless the Space Marines don't recruit gay guys.
When people say "female Space Marines" I tend to imagine an entire chapter that only recruits women.
Is there anyone who would actually not play against someone because their sergeants or chapter master or whatever had converted heads, though? I'm pretty sure if I turned up with some pastel-coloured Space Marines with converted heads for the un-helmeted ones and was standing in front of someone asking if they wanted to play a game then they'd have to be a real jerk of the highest order to actually say they wouldn't play with me because of it, even if they'd post on a forum that they didn't like the concept.
I probably would if it's absolutely horrendously fluff-breaking. Different armies match ups are OK (pre heresy versus heresy), but Male SOBs or female Astartes that can't be handwaved as Slaaneshi? Nope.
But really, there is no point for there to be female space marines besides "everything must be equal!!!1111!!" from one small group of the fandom. There's already SOB's, just cut the godawful boobplate.
(It's the only thing I hate about the SOB's. That boob plate just looks horrendous. Swap it out with Astartes chest pieces, plus fluffwise they could just gut it of the additional systems SOBs can't use and fill it with more armor to protect them better than form-fitting armor.)
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Kojiro wrote: It is also easy to believe that the top 0.1% (those that get a look in for recruitment)
Aren't the top 0.1%.
They are the top 0.1% of a very tiny portion (male, young, lucky enough to be found by the chapter, lucky enough to survive the recruitment process itself, genetically compatible to the gene-seed, lucky enough to survive implantation) of a very tiny number of worlds. Space Marines don't recruit the best.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/02/14 03:51:46
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
They are the top 0.1% of a very tiny portion (male, young, lucky enough to be found by the chapter, lucky enough to survive the recruitment process itself, genetically compatible to the gene-seed, lucky enough to survive implantation) of a very tiny number of worlds. Space Marines don't recruit the best.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Melissia, but what exactly are you trying to say here? It seems like you're claiming marines don't recruit from the entire human species but only those with favourable factors (that cause them to come into contact with the chapter)- and that there may be others humans in existence that are superior choices for marines? Ergo they are not recruiting 'the best' because there are better choices (whom they'll never meet) out there.
But I thought it was implied in my comments that I was only talking about those they actually look at. I'll restate it; It is easy to believe that- of those who get a look in for recriutment- the top 0.1% (or whatever threshold the chapter recruits at) are so consistently male it has simply become expedient/policy/tradition to do so.
At this point I'm kinda feeling sorry for making this thread... It just keeps flame warring and flame warring...
"I don't have a good feeling about this... Your mini looks like it has my mini's head on a stick..."
"From the immaterium to the Imperium, this is Radio Free Nostramo! Coming to you live from the Eye of Terror, this is your host, Captain Contagion, bringing you the latest Heretical hits!"
thepowerfulwill wrote: At this point I'm kinda feeling sorry for making this thread... It just keeps flame warring and flame warring...
Eh, don't be. It's the same as when the threads about race/ethnicity in 40k comes up. Some people say everyone is the same race after thousands of years, aka white, while others argue that they still would be different and possibly be even more diverse.
It's just what happens, but that doesn't make it something that shouldn't be discussed.
Spiney Norman wrote:
I would also like to thank all those crazy gamers with too much money to spend that buy hundreds of the same marine models, paint them different colours and pretend they are different armies. You are the heroes upon whose backs the future of GW sales is assured.
AegisGrimm wrote: Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap.
But if you're sticking to the "female marines are modified to be just as buff as male marines" or "future women are just as buff as future men"... you wouldn't even need a head swap. Start modifying a woman's hormones, pump her full of testosterone, modify her genetics so she grows a larger skeleton, guess what, her face is gonna look like a man as well.
You want to know what a female Space Marine would look like with her helmet off?
Marines do start early enough for heavy testosterone treatments to cause women to grow facial hair.
Incidentally, that's a legitimate reason to leave male Marines their junk - The testicles are the primary (but not the only) source of testosterone in a body, so modifying them to be hyper-active is the easiest way to flood the male system with testosterone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 07:41:33
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: Marines do start early enough for heavy testosterone treatments to cause women to grow facial hair.
Incidentally, that's a legitimate reason to leave male Marines their junk - The testicles are the primary (but not the only) source of testosterone in a body, so modifying them to be hyper-active is the easiest way to flood the male system with testosterone.
Someday, I just want there to be a discussion on Astartes outside normal fluff like what's your favorite chapter or armor- that doesn't result to discussing Astartes genitals. Because I just want to know that it's possible. It's like the W40K version of Godwin's Law.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Vash108 wrote: Didn't they just radically change Necron lore? I'm pretty sure it isn't beyond GW.
There's a difference between changing a minor faction and changing their main source of bread and butter who's fanbase is exceptionally volatile. They're highly unlikely to ever pull such a bad move, especially when they have the SOB line.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Vash108 wrote: Didn't they just radically change Necron lore? I'm pretty sure it isn't beyond GW.
Necron lore hasn't actually been around that long. They changed from their Chapter Approved self dramatically, and then came about 3rd edition dex changing things up.
And apparently the lore didn't help out because they were having some truly extreme issues trying to give the Necrons character and thus they needed to be changed, not to mention how mary sue the C'tan had became.
Vash108 wrote: Didn't they just radically change Necron lore? I'm pretty sure it isn't beyond GW.
Necron lore hasn't actually been around that long. They changed from their Chapter Approved self dramatically, and then came about 3rd edition dex changing things up.
And apparently the lore didn't help out because they were having some truly extreme issues trying to give the Necrons character and thus they needed to be changed, not to mention how mary sue the C'tan had became.
Lol. I just love how the C'tan went from nasty eldritch gods.... to nasty eldritch gods that got crippled by the race that they had originally considered slaves. Just makes the Necrons now come off as a serious business race that you really don't want to anger.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Also don't forget the extra dosage of nostalgia. C'tan became Necron pokemon
I can see it now. A necron sitting back. Aaaaah don't you just remember the good ol' days? When there were only 151 pokemon? Nowadays, the young ones are all running around with their skullboy 3000 and their 41,000 pokemon. So unoriginal are the new ones. Don't you remember the old good ones like the pile of sludge and the pokeball with eyes?
Vash108 wrote: Didn't they just radically change Necron lore? I'm pretty sure it isn't beyond GW.
Necron lore hasn't actually been around that long. They changed from their Chapter Approved self dramatically, and then came about 3rd edition dex changing things up.
And apparently the lore didn't help out because they were having some truly extreme issues trying to give the Necrons character and thus they needed to be changed, not to mention how mary sue the C'tan had became.
Also some other fluff changes. *cough*chaos undivided*cough* then there was the older but painful THERE ARE ONLY WARBANDS. Other gods within the warp were mostly perged and they made it impossible to have undivided princes (discounting Bel'akour)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/14 09:19:07
AegisGrimm wrote: Nothing about an Astartes would make a female anything more than a head swap. Astartes are just fantasy knights in space, but at least in Brettonia woman could be a knight and wear plate if she felt like it. Changing 25+years of fluff to justify a head swap seems like a bit too much work.
Ahh but the reason these threads bring up so much debate is cause those people don't want a simple head swap...Most who want female space marines want a feminine looking miniature to field who should be sort of hot looking and a simple head swap will not suffice.
Mind you this is not everyone on this forum and said miniature doesn't have to be dressed in a metal bikini bolt gun blazing (though that would sell pretty well imho), but the general desire is to have a marine who looks like a female....a bad ass female in power armor, but a female all the same.
If, for once, someone did a semi-sane 'female space marine' picture without basing the design off an anime character.
I mean, Marines are pretty damn anime at heart anyway, but the moment someone sees BESM features, they discount the whole concept.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
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