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 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think there may be some fluff that talks about the armour and/or weapons of SoB and Marines being equal... But that fluff is so old so I am taking it with a pinch of salt.

The Witch Hunters codex says that SoB armour equally protective as Marine armour, but lacks some of the additional functions. But then, we've had that conversation before.

As for the bolters, I don't think there's been an outright answer on that. What I do know it that the Witch Hunters codex calls Sororitas the Godwyn-De'az Pattern bolter superior to nearly all other bolter types, and the AS codex says that the SoB get the best wargear the Imperium has to offer. So the SoB bolter may or may not be as effective as the Astartes bolter, but it's still one of the best bolters out there.

As for older sources, I'd say that you only really need to apply that RT, since it was quite different in fluff and tone. From 2E onwards, I think you're pretty safe to accept studio fluff unless a subsequent studio publication retcons it. I'd also say that this applies especially to the SoB, since their fluff hasn't ben as developed as others, since their last two codexes were a WD and then a Digital Codex which recycled a lot of fluff.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And fair enough... I do not have the SoB codex, but then, I suspect it might a bit of codex bias having sneaked its way in there.

Oh course most codexes talk up their respective armies, but I think it's better if we avoid trying to handwave things away as bias or propaganda too much. Especially when it's referring to more tangible things like equipment and such.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


...All praise the headcanon.

The only way Marines could get any more silly? :p

>implying marines are silly in the first place

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think there may be some fluff that talks about the armour and/or weapons of SoB and Marines being equal... But that fluff is so old so I am taking it with a pinch of salt.

The Witch Hunters codex says that SoB armour equally protective as Marine armour, but lacks some of the additional functions. But then, we've had that conversation before.

As for the bolters, I don't think there's been an outright answer on that. What I do know it that the Witch Hunters codex calls Sororitas the Godwyn-De'az Pattern bolter superior to nearly all other bolter types, and the AS codex says that the SoB get the best wargear the Imperium has to offer. So the SoB bolter may or may not be as effective as the Astartes bolter, but it's still one of the best bolters out there.

As for older sources, I'd say that you only really need to apply that RT, since it was quite different in fluff and tone. From 2E onwards, I think you're pretty safe to accept studio fluff unless a subsequent studio publication retcons it. I'd also say that this applies especially to the SoB, since their fluff hasn't ben as developed as others, since their last two codexes were a WD and then a Digital Codex which recycled a lot of fluff.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And fair enough... I do not have the SoB codex, but then, I suspect it might a bit of codex bias having sneaked its way in there.

Oh course most codexes talk up their respective armies, but I think it's better if we avoid trying to handwave things away as bias or propaganda too much. Especially when it's referring to more tangible things like equipment and such.

Well, it might be a good bolter, but it might still be smaller.

I agree that handwaving it might be excessive, but it is something to keep in mind. This is not 100% reliable.

As for age, I remain with my stance that it loses reliability the older it gets. There were still a lot of crazy stuff in 2nd ed.

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think there may be some fluff that talks about the armour and/or weapons of SoB and Marines being equal... But that fluff is so old so I am taking it with a pinch of salt.

The Witch Hunters codex says that SoB armour equally protective as Marine armour, but lacks some of the additional functions. But then, we've had that conversation before.

As for the bolters, I don't think there's been an outright answer on that. What I do know it that the Witch Hunters codex calls Sororitas the Godwyn-De'az Pattern bolter superior to nearly all other bolter types, and the AS codex says that the SoB get the best wargear the Imperium has to offer. So the SoB bolter may or may not be as effective as the Astartes bolter, but it's still one of the best bolters out there.

As for older sources, I'd say that you only really need to apply that RT, since it was quite different in fluff and tone. From 2E onwards, I think you're pretty safe to accept studio fluff unless a subsequent studio publication retcons it. I'd also say that this applies especially to the SoB, since their fluff hasn't ben as developed as others, since their last two codexes were a WD and then a Digital Codex which recycled a lot of fluff.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
And fair enough... I do not have the SoB codex, but then, I suspect it might a bit of codex bias having sneaked its way in there.

Oh course most codexes talk up their respective armies, but I think it's better if we avoid trying to handwave things away as bias or propaganda too much. Especially when it's referring to more tangible things like equipment and such.

I've always found it hilarious how the Space Marine Codex actually doesn't oversell Space Marines compared to their fluff like with the other factions. The worst is probably Chaos, claiming the Chaos Gods are omnipotent, although with Chaos, nobody really has a clear idea on their power.

Well, both forces have S4 Bolters and PA with a 3+ save - but as stats are only 1-10 and saves 2-6 it could be one or the other is on the lower end of that particular number. Same as a normal IG soldier and an Ork boy both have S3 while the ork is considerably bulkier and noted for his brute strength.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


>implying marines are silly in the first place

Only as silly as anything else in this hobby, I suppose. 40k runs on Rule of Cool and Refuge in Audacity after all.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


Well, it might be a good bolter, but it might still be smaller.

I agree that handwaving it might be excessive, but it is something to keep in mind. This is not 100% reliable.

As for age, I remain with my stance that it loses reliability the older it gets. There were still a lot of crazy stuff in 2nd ed.

Smaller, but explicitly the same caliber - from which we can infer that Marine gear is bulked up to fit in their hands. Old bolters still look silly-small though. The 2e box set push-fit Marines were only a little smaller than the current plastic Marines, but their bolters look more like bolt pistols held two-handed!

Spetulhu wrote:
Well, both forces have S4 Bolters and PA with a 3+ save - but as stats are only 1-10 and saves 2-6 it could be one or the other is on the lower end of that particular number. Same as a normal IG soldier and an Ork boy both have S3 while the ork is considerably bulkier and noted for his brute strength.

Game mechanics should be taken with at least fifty pinches of salt.

Otherwise, you are free to explain why Straken has magical bionics that make him stronger than a Warboss while other equally augmetic characters are not.

Or how a Grot parries every third attack made by the Avatar of Khaine.

Or, indeed, how the Orks are worse at aim than most other races, yet are just as capable of hitting aircraft...

And so on, I can make like a hundred examples like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


>implying marines are silly in the first place

Only as silly as anything else in this hobby, I suppose. 40k runs on Rule of Cool and Refuge in Audacity after all.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


Well, it might be a good bolter, but it might still be smaller.

I agree that handwaving it might be excessive, but it is something to keep in mind. This is not 100% reliable.

As for age, I remain with my stance that it loses reliability the older it gets. There were still a lot of crazy stuff in 2nd ed.

Smaller, but explicitly the same caliber.

Same thing there.

In the game of fluff, you win or you die.

Just going to add this, since I edited it into my previous post while you were replying;

- from which we can infer that Marine gear is bulked up to fit in their hands. Old bolters still look silly-small though. The 2e box set push-fit Marines were only a little smaller than the current plastic Marines, but their bolters look more like bolt pistols held two-handed!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just going to add this, since I edited it into my previous post while you were replying;

- from which we can infer that Marine gear is bulked up to fit in their hands. Old bolters still look silly-small though. The 2e box set push-fit Marines were only a little smaller than the current plastic Marines, but their bolters look more like bolt pistols held two-handed!

It's a commonly known fact that the scale in 40K is all the way to hell and back. I see Guardsmen models taller than Space Marines and you try to fit 10 Marines, even non-truescaled ones, inside of a Rhino!

I have my own amusing little conceits, and Marines going into battle armed with RPGs the relative size of submachineguns is one of them. What can I say? I like silly.

Actually, I was really quite impressed when Forge World released a model for the interior troop bay of a Valkyrie

You can shoot bolts from a shotgun (see Necromunda) so really, the boltgun itself isn't that special, it is the bolt round itself that is important. Even in Inquisitor where we had different types of boltgun there was no distinction made for an Astartes scale weapon.

If I were to go through the background then making Astartes gear unique to them and virtually unusable by anyone other than them is the first thing I would correct.

For that matter, in DoWII, the scaled Marines look quite nice. They do not quite match my headcanon, but they still look quite nice. (But I won't scare you with the headcanon, it's a mess of fangirlness and my love for OP things, and won't impress anyone)

Here, a size comparison of a DoWII Plague Marine, a Plague Champion to be specific, and a big, strong Catachan Devil.

To insert a little bit of real life stuff in the bolter discussion;

A heavier weapon leads to less felt recoil. If we assume that all the bolters with the same profile fire the same projectile using the same propellant as they have identical performance;

we can suggest that it's less that the marine bolter is bigger and more powerful; It's that the sub-marine bolters (glub!) have lighter and smaller build around their workings to be operated by smaller people, making their felt recoil and stability far, FAR harder to control.

On the flipside a very heavy weapon is also harder to control and hold up in general. Lower strength units would find it much harder to hold up a bolter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

I think there may be some fluff that talks about the armour and/or weapons of SoB and Marines being equal... But that fluff is so old so I am taking it with a pinch of salt.

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

It's in the Sisters' codex.

Also, I just had that argument on the Bolter and Chainsword last week, and it pretty much devolved into me giving sources and citations, and the Marine fanboys telling me I was attacking them personally and that Marines had better stuff and had to win the argument because it was the B&C.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

Yep, also of note since Ogryns do have females.

Let's get some on in there. Ogryn females for equality there, I mean they grew up in the same settings, they should be about right when it comes to bashing skulls in for the Emperor.

Ogryns are about as human as Astartes too, so it even has relevance.

Er actually, not about as human. They are exactly humans who have grown up in certain low gravity (or high gravity, forget) worlds.

Astartes are so full of artificial things, specifically grown organs, they eat brains and gain knowledge, spit acid and other weird things.

Ogryns just grew up on planets with specific gravity that changed them over time.

... No, Ogryns are abhumans, like Ratlings, Squats and Navigators.

They are stable, true-breeding mutants.

Low gravity worlds would produce humans more the shape of Eldar - tall and skinny. High gravity worlds would produce humans more the shape of Squats - short and broad. Ogryns suit neither of these profiles.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Here we go again...

I swear, if you want to know what the relationship between the Astartes and the Sororitas is, just look at Melissia and Brother Haraldus. If you two weren't halfway across the world, I'd swear you really were siblings.

Sometimes I don't know myself if Melissia is serious or just trolling, but in the end, it doesn't really matter and I find our discussions enjoyable. I suppose this 'not-sure-if-trolling-but-I'll-bite' attitude is a healthy one, and I have yet to succumb to the corruption of actual flaming.

There are so many holes to poke in them posts. I love it.

If someone is your enemy and friend, then who is your enemy's enemy and is the enemy's enemy your friend?

That depends, in space, yes. In high school, no.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... No, Ogryns are abhumans, like Ratlings, Squats and Navigators.

They are stable, true-breeding mutants.

Low gravity worlds would produce humans more the shape of Eldar - tall and skinny. High gravity worlds would produce humans more the shape of Squats - short and broad. Ogryns suit neither of these profiles.

This. High gravity does not make you grow massive.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... No, Ogryns are abhumans, like Ratlings, Squats and Navigators.

They are stable, true-breeding mutants.

Low gravity worlds would produce humans more the shape of Eldar - tall and skinny. High gravity worlds would produce humans more the shape of Squats - short and broad. Ogryns suit neither of these profiles.

This. High gravity does not make you grow massive.

Whoops, it's been a while since I checked their fluff (Despite wanting to add some to my CSM army so badly, but they are worse then possessed!)

Also it's 40k, logic kinda ran out a while back.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

I think there may be some fluff that talks about the armour and/or weapons of SoB and Marines being equal... But that fluff is so old so I am taking it with a pinch of salt.

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

It's in the Sisters' codex.

Also, I just had that argument on the Bolter and Chainsword last week, and it pretty much devolved into me giving sources and citations, and the Marine fanboys telling me I was attacking them personally and that Marines had better stuff and had to win the argument because it was the B&C.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Oh, and Ogryns are S5.

Yep, also of note since Ogryns do have females.

Let's get some on in there. Ogryn females for equality there, I mean they grew up in the same settings, they should be about right when it comes to bashing skulls in for the Emperor.

Ogryns are about as human as Astartes too, so it even has relevance.

Er actually, not about as human. They are exactly humans who have grown up in certain low gravity (or high gravity, forget) worlds.

Astartes are so full of artificial things, specifically grown organs, they eat brains and gain knowledge, spit acid and other weird things.

Ogryns just grew up on planets with specific gravity that changed them over time.

By definition, Ogryn are actually a separate species from humans.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I agree that handwaving it might be excessive, but it is something to keep in mind. This is not 100% reliable.

Why not? I don't see why they'd lie about how good SoB equipment is. IMO, what they'll generally "talk up" is the army's characterisation and effectiveness, but I don't see why we should regard fluff on standard equipment as unreliable.

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I agree that handwaving it might be excessive, but it is something to keep in mind. This is not 100% reliable.

Why not? I don't see why they'd lie about how good SoB equipment is. IMO, what they'll generally "talk up" is the army's characterisation and effectiveness, but I don't see why we should regard fluff on standard equipment as unreliable.

Because SM are described (In the 6th ed rulebook afaik) as having the best equipment available in the Imperium.

You can't have two different factions who both have the best gear.

SammyConnor wrote:
A heavier weapon leads to less felt recoil.

And it would also absorb more heat through having more material in it to do so, making it slower to overheat.

But all that does is make the Sisters seem even better shots - they get the same BS4 as marines with none of their physical upgrades and less of the fancy PA-boltgun interfaced targeting systems. I guess marines sacrifice a lot of hand-eye coordination for their durability and enhanced strength.

Spetulhu wrote:

SammyConnor wrote:
A heavier weapon leads to less felt recoil.

And it would also absorb more heat through having more material in it to do so, making it slower to overheat.

But all that does is make the Sisters seem even better shots - they get the same BS4 as marines with none of their physical upgrades and less of the fancy PA-boltgun interfaced targeting systems. I guess marines sacrifice a lot of hand-eye coordination for their durability and enhanced strength.

Or they are just victims of the extremely inprecise stat system.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I agree that handwaving it might be excessive, but it is something to keep in mind. This is not 100% reliable.

Why not? I don't see why they'd lie about how good SoB equipment is. IMO, what they'll generally "talk up" is the army's characterisation and effectiveness, but I don't see why we should regard fluff on standard equipment as unreliable.

Because SM are described (In the 6th ed rulebook afaik) as having the best equipment available in the Imperium.

You can't have two different factions who both have the best gear.

Unless their gear is just as good as the other's.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I agree that handwaving it might be excessive, but it is something to keep in mind. This is not 100% reliable.

Why not? I don't see why they'd lie about how good SoB equipment is. IMO, what they'll generally "talk up" is the army's characterisation and effectiveness, but I don't see why we should regard fluff on standard equipment as unreliable.

Because SM are described (In the 6th ed rulebook afaik) as having the best equipment available in the Imperium.

And yet they don't have infantry autocannons and other fun, effective stuff Both a subjective opinion, and inconsistent.

Meanwhile, Sororitas power armor is stated to provide equal protection, and it does in the game. That's not subjective, and it's consistent.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I agree that handwaving it might be excessive, but it is something to keep in mind. This is not 100% reliable.

Why not? I don't see why they'd lie about how good SoB equipment is. IMO, what they'll generally "talk up" is the army's characterisation and effectiveness, but I don't see why we should regard fluff on standard equipment as unreliable.

Because SM are described (In the 6th ed rulebook afaik) as having the best equipment available in the Imperium.

And yet they don't have infantry autocannons and other fun, effective stuff Both a subjective opinion, and inconsistent.

Meanwhile, Sororitas power armor is stated to provide equal protection, and it does in the game. That's not subjective, and it's consistent.

You sure about that? Or did you happen to forget that assault cannons are gatling full-auto autocannons?

I know scouts *used* to be able to take an autocannon as an option. Not sure about in 6th edition.

 Wyzilla wrote:




You sure about that? Or did you happen to forget that assault cannons are gatling full-auto autocannons?

No, they aren't. Autocannons fire shells. Assault Cannons fire bullets.

As evidenced by the difference in Strength in-game.

Fluff wise, the Assault Cannon was an evolution of the Rotor Cannon, taking advantage of the additional bracing available to the newly developed Terminator Armour to increase the ruggedness of the mechanisms and allow for heavier-caliber shells. It only replaced the Autocannon in the tactical sense, and even that was only the Reaper Autocannon, which was a halfway house "stand in" while the Assault Cannon technology was being developed - much like the Sea Venom was rolled out quickly and cheaply to fill in while the Sea Vixen was being worked on.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:




You sure about that? Or did you happen to forget that assault cannons are gatling full-auto autocannons?

No, they aren't. Autocannons fire shells. Assault Cannons fire bullets.

As evidenced by the difference in Strength in-game.

Fluff wise, the Assault Cannon was an evolution of the Rotor Cannon, taking advantage of the additional bracing available to the newly developed Terminator Armour to increase the ruggedness of the mechanisms and allow for heavier-caliber shells. It only replaced the Autocannon in the tactical sense, and even that was only the Reaper Autocannon, which was a halfway house "stand in" while the Assault Cannon technology was being developed - much like the Sea Venom was rolled out quickly and cheaply to fill in while the Sea Vixen was being worked on.

Hm, it appears I have a wiki to fix in that case. This really is why these things can never be used as a quick reference.

I wrote that from memory, so you should probably double check in the Horus Heresy: Betrayal book and Codex: Chaos Space Marines, since that's where most of the AC/ASC fluff is codified most recently.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I wrote that from memory, so you should probably double check in the Horus Heresy: Betrayal book and Codex: Chaos Space Marines, since that's where most of the AC/ASC fluff is codified most recently.

Already before that, checked my rulebook, C:SM, C:CSM, and Horus Heresy 1, assault cannons fire a maeltrom of heavy stubber rounds that turn things like tryanids into paste. Autocannons are completely different, and, once again, the W40K is just utter trash not worth even looking up. The best thing is that they even have the page locked, so I can't correct it!