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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 05:21:19
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Fixture of Dakka
Kamloops, BC
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There's a lot of different types of racism too like institutional, personal, economic, symbolic, etc it's not as simple as just saying or doing hateful things to other races (and ethnicities depending on your definition) it can be quite subtle.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/13 05:22:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 05:36:40
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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cincydooley wrote:I think the Riley cooper situation this past summer is a really good example of how that context changes things a great deal. Still think it was a poor decision for him to say on camera, but there certainly wasn't any racist intent.
FWIW, while I agree that racism is racism and bigotry is bigotry, being called a cracker or a honkey doesn't really bother me. I actually think they're both kinda funny. As a full blooded American Irishman, I'm not really offended when I've been called a Mick before either.
But that's just me.
Yeah, it wouldn't bother me either, but I still respect that it might bother someone else.
The Irish reference reminds me of another story from a poker night I was at a few weeks ago. One fellow there was wearing a green Ireland shirt, in recognition of his proud Irish heritage, from about six generations ago, from a country he'd never actually visited. One of his mates picked up on this, and joked about how he might feel a little ridiculous considering there was a couple guys here playing poker who were actually from Ireland, and they didn't feel the need to wear bright green shirts with Ireland on them. The guy got annoyed at this, and so everyone took to calling him 'paddie', including the actual Irish people. He was offended
Which has a point, I guess, that some times offending someone isn't actually a bad thing. Sometimes what people claim as offence is actually just people showing them how silly they're being. So 'offence' alone isn't enough of a guideline, making the whole thing even more complicated Automatically Appended Next Post: whembly wrote:Eh...
At the end of the day, all that really matters is how the recipient takes it.
Yep, I agree entirely about that. Automatically Appended Next Post: Cheesecat wrote:There's a lot of different types of racism too like institutional, personal, economic, symbolic, etc it's not as simple as just saying or doing hateful things to other races (and ethnicities depending on your definition) it can be quite subtle.
Yes, really good point. And in the scope of problems about race, people being offended about racial words being used is way, way down the bottom of the list.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/13 05:38:22
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 05:42:47
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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I think it's hard for a lot of us white folks to really understand, too, because so few of us have really felt racism in our lives. It's a fact that comes up all the time when I'm talking with my black friends.
It's actually a big reason why I think it's important for white folks like me to have some minority friends they are willing to address some of our ignorances about race in general. We had a big old discussion about it regarding the Marcus Smart incident (which I'm surprised didn't make it into this section of dakka).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 05:45:00
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Imperial Admiral
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cincydooley wrote:It's actually a big reason why I think it's important for white folks like me to have some minority friends they are willing to address some of our ignorances about race in general.
A certain number, would you say? Or 'quota,' if you will?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 05:46:10
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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I mean, I'd lean towards token ;P. But that's just me.
But seriously, I really did word that strangely. Let me try to rephrase:
I'm glad I have some friends of color to educate me on some of the issues they face that, as a suburban white dude, I can't understand from first hand experiences.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/13 05:47:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 05:47:46
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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When people say stuff like "it's not possible to be racist against white people" IME they're using a social justice definition of racism where racism = power + prejudice. Under that definition you can't be racist against whitey because whitey has the institutional power. You can be prejudiced against whitey, but that's different - and that's the point of the distinction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 06:17:43
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Wing Commander
Firehawk 1st Armored Regimental Headquarters
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whembly wrote: sebster wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: whembly wrote:eh... sort of right. I live in St. Louis, MO... grew up going to Magnet School in the City where *I* was the minority. Funny thing is that my African American peers at school were brutally honest about race relations such that left an impression in my life. I think that the city-life made them more pragmatic about their outlook in life. It's this: Using any words with racial overtones is equally bad. Because the moment you start saying one word in context is worse than the other, it's easier to fall into the reverse-racism trap. It isn't that simple, because words with racial meanings are used all the time in non-racist contexts, and simply refusing to be part can actually end up looking racist. I'll give you an example, in the country I used to play in a cricket team with a pretty strong aboriginal contingent, and they'd throw around all sorts of terms that I would never have used when I lived in the city. One time after I'd just shared a good laugh with one guy, he grabbed me around the shoulders and said 'this guy is my boong brother'... and I said 'yeah, we're boong brothers'. Now boong is just like the n-word, and there's no way in hell I'd just say it in regular conversation (I actually feel a bit odd typing it...) but in that situation it would have been weird and kind of racist for me to say 'actually I don't like that word and I won't say'. It's all in the context of the situation.
Eh... At the end of the day, all that really matters is how the recipient takes it. All I'm saying is that racism... is racism. I'm not talking about folks who knows each other and calls each other names in jest. Racism is more than a offensive word, if the only thing white people have to worry about in this country is being called a cracker then we have gotten off lucky compared to how some are treated. Worst case of racism Iv personally witnessed is when a group of kids in my area beat a "Arab looking kid" half to death and they said they only did it because they thought he was a Muslim terrorist. Except the kid was from Morocco and was christian.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/13 06:39:48
"The Imperium is nothing if not willing to go to any lengths necessary. So the Trekkies are zipping around at warp speed taking small chucks out of an nigh-on infinite amount of ships, with the Imperium being unable to strike back. feth it, says central command, and detonates every vortex warhead in the fleet, plunging the entire sector into the Warp. Enjoy tentacle-rape, Kirk, we know Sulu will." -Terminus
"This great fortress was a gift to the Blood Ravens from the legendary Imperial Fists. When asked about it Chapter Master Pugh was reported to say: "THEY TOOK WHAT!?"" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 06:33:32
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Kid_Kyoto
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One of my former coworkers remarked that someone in the office thought he was Mexican once. He's from Lebanon.
He said it was one of the most flattering assumptions about him he's ever had. Funny thing is that he's probably more "American" than I am..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 07:49:54
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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cincydooley wrote:I think it's hard for a lot of us white folks to really understand, too, because so few of us have really felt racism in our lives. It's a fact that comes up all the time when I'm talking with my black friends.
Definitely. There were a couple of asian kids in my primary school, but the first time I saw a black person I was 11. I actually remember the day it happened. Seriously, that's how white my upbringing was.
The end result is that while I wasn't racist when I was younger, I was really, really clueless about a lot of race issues. When I went out and lived in the country, I learnt a hell of a lot, really quickly.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 11:51:47
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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cincydooley wrote:I think it's hard for a lot of us white folks to really understand, too, because so few of us have really felt racism in our lives. It's a fact that comes up all the time when I'm talking with my black friends.
It's actually a big reason why I think it's important for white folks like me to have some minority friends they are willing to address some of our ignorances about race in general. We had a big old discussion about it regarding the Marcus Smart incident (which I'm surprised didn't make it into this section of dakka).
I thought like that. Then I moved to LA. My thinking is different now.
"Get Off My Lawn!" knows no color, race, or creed.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 13:01:28
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Martial Arts Fiday
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HiveFleetPlastic wrote:When people say stuff like "it's not possible to be racist against white people" IME they're using a social justice definition of racism where racism = power + prejudice. Under that definition you can't be racist against whitey because whitey has the institutional power. You can be prejudiced against whitey, but that's different - and that's the point of the distinction.
Um, prejudice based upon race IS Racism.
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"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 14:13:01
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Imperial Admiral
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Not if you buy into enough leftist nonsense.
Anyway, this whole story is demonstrably false. I was assured after Zimmerman that any white guy shooting a black guy in Florida would never again face trial due to the breakdown of all that is right and just in society. The people who said this aren't the type to lie or exaggerate to make a bad political point, so it stands to reason that at least some of the facts are wrong.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 14:19:44
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Seaward wrote:Anyway, this whole story is demonstrably false. I was assured after Zimmerman that any white guy shooting a black guy in Florida would never again face trial due to the breakdown of all that is right and just in society. The people who said this aren't the type to lie or exaggerate to make a bad political point, so it stands to reason that at least some of the facts are wrong.
That not what I said. That's what you and others kept saying I said, but its not what I said.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 14:26:08
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Imperial Admiral
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LordofHats wrote:That not what I said. That's what you and others kept saying I said, but its not what I said.
I was talking about TV and newspaper pundits (and the entirety of MSNBC), but the quick leap to the defensive is curious.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 14:36:51
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Seaward wrote: LordofHats wrote:That not what I said. That's what you and others kept saying I said, but its not what I said.
I was talking about TV and newspaper pundits (and the entirety of MSNBC), but the quick leap to the defensive is curious.
Its pretty much verbadum the same thing you and others said to me back in the big ol Zimmerman thread from like. Anyway, you even linked this case back to me as a response to the faux argument in the thread. It was awhile ago so maybe I'm the only person who remembers.
Forgive me for for thinking that words are being twisted. Dunn case is definitely being effected by the Zimmerman case. The only reason Dunn even made news is because the shooting happened in the middle of the Zimmerman trial. It bodes ill when a jury takes this long on such a straight forward case.They have already been shown the footage during trial, which showed that Davis had no weapon (rather plainly too). It's not hard to imagine they're drawing a line between Dunn and Zimmerman.
Of course, somehow the police get handed a conviction on a platter and they still manage to mess it up. Gotta wonder what their spending their money on, cause it doesn't seem to be trained officers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 15:41:57
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Yeah the facts really don't seem in favour of the shooter in this case. I am all for responsible gun ownership, but being under the influence and deciding to draw in the circumstances as outlined do not strike me as the actions of a responsible person.
sebster wrote:Yeah, it wouldn't bother me either, but I still respect that it might bother someone else.
The Irish reference reminds me of another story from a poker night I was at a few weeks ago. One fellow there was wearing a green Ireland shirt, in recognition of his proud Irish heritage, from about six generations ago, from a country he'd never actually visited. One of his mates picked up on this, and joked about how he might feel a little ridiculous considering there was a couple guys here playing poker who were actually from Ireland, and they didn't feel the need to wear bright green shirts with Ireland on them. The guy got annoyed at this, and so everyone took to calling him 'paddie', including the actual Irish people. He was offended
Which has a point, I guess, that some times offending someone isn't actually a bad thing. Sometimes what people claim as offence is actually just people showing them how silly they're being. So 'offence' alone isn't enough of a guideline, making the whole thing even more complicated
We tend to call people like that a Plastic Paddy
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 16:23:12
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Kid_Kyoto
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Dreadclaw69 wrote:
sebster wrote:Yeah, it wouldn't bother me either, but I still respect that it might bother someone else.
The Irish reference reminds me of another story from a poker night I was at a few weeks ago. One fellow there was wearing a green Ireland shirt, in recognition of his proud Irish heritage, from about six generations ago, from a country he'd never actually visited. One of his mates picked up on this, and joked about how he might feel a little ridiculous considering there was a couple guys here playing poker who were actually from Ireland, and they didn't feel the need to wear bright green shirts with Ireland on them. The guy got annoyed at this, and so everyone took to calling him 'paddie', including the actual Irish people. He was offended
Which has a point, I guess, that some times offending someone isn't actually a bad thing. Sometimes what people claim as offence is actually just people showing them how silly they're being. So 'offence' alone isn't enough of a guideline, making the whole thing even more complicated
We tend to call people like that a Plastic Paddy 
How much of a heritage do you need to have in order to be interested in it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 16:32:37
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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The jury is still deliberating.
O.o
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 17:51:14
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Dakka Veteran
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If I recall correctly, the longer the jury deliberated, the more likely a guilty verdict.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 17:54:02
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Really? I would think it the other way around.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 17:57:01
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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daedalus wrote:How much of a heritage do you need to have in order to be interested in it?
There is a significant difference between being interested in your heritage, and trying to out do the natives
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 17:58:56
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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xole wrote: If I recall correctly, the longer the jury deliberated, the more likely a guilty verdict.
It's the opposite. It means the jury is having a hard time acquiring an unanimous decision. The longer it goes, the more likely it's hung.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/13 17:59:15
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 18:06:09
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Dakka Veteran
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whembly wrote: xole wrote:
If I recall correctly, the longer the jury deliberated, the more likely a guilty verdict.
It's the opposite.
It means the jury is having a hard time acquiring an unanimous decision.
The longer it goes, the more likely it's hung.
I googled it and you're right(probably).
Huh, wrong for once. Irritating. I must start a 30 page religion thread to rectify this.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/13 18:06:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 18:16:10
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Kid_Kyoto
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: daedalus wrote:How much of a heritage do you need to have in order to be interested in it?
There is a significant difference between being interested in your heritage, and trying to out do the natives 
So, along this same vein of thought: I've been thinking about getting a kilt, not because I'm Scottish, or think I'm Scottish, but because they look comfortable as all hell. Now, my family actually IS significantly Scottish on my dad's side. Were I to get the family plaid instead of a random one, would I be a Plastic Paddy (or in this case, I fear I'd be "No True Scotsman"). Further, for that matter, would any sort of kilt be the mark of a Plastic Paddy?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 18:17:31
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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daedalus wrote:So, along this same vein of thought: I've been thinking about getting a kilt, not because I'm Scottish, or think I'm Scottish, but because they look comfortable as all hell. Now, my family actually IS significantly Scottish on my dad's side. Were I to get the family plaid instead of a random one, would I be a Plastic Paddy (or in this case, I fear I'd be "No True Scotsman"). Further, for that matter, would any sort of kilt be the mark of a Plastic Paddy?
Not unless you run around trying to be Braveheart to ingratiate yourself with the locals
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 18:42:52
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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UPDATE: 1:20PM Jury asks if they can be provided with the “trajectory-rod dummy.” Problem is, dummy is demonstrative evidence only, normally would not go back to jury room. State has no objection. Strolla and Dunn discuss briefly in separate room, return and say they also have no objection. Healey, in abundance of caution, recesses for 15 minutes so case law can be reviewed, ensure they don’t inadvertently make a move that could result in reversal.
Now this is kinda bizzare...
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 18:48:17
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Maybe they're reenacting the episode of Monk scene for scene
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 18:58:37
Subject: Re:The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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whembly wrote:UPDATE: 1:20PM Jury asks if they can be provided with the “trajectory-rod dummy.” Problem is, dummy is demonstrative evidence only, normally would not go back to jury room. State has no objection. Strolla and Dunn discuss briefly in separate room, return and say they also have no objection. Healey, in abundance of caution, recesses for 15 minutes so case law can be reviewed, ensure they don’t inadvertently make a move that could result in reversal.
Now this is kinda bizzare...
Lets see..
If it looks like the GG was shot at an angle correspionding to sitting down in the car no good for BG.
Same to same if the GG is in a position different from where the BG said he saw a shotgun, stick, or whatever he was blathering about.
If the pattern could resemble however the GG leaning out of his vehicle, then that helps the BG's case.
The jury may just be being methodical. Or someone has a mandoll crush.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 19:01:12
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Alexzandvar wrote: whembly wrote: sebster wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
whembly wrote:eh... sort of right.
I live in St. Louis, MO... grew up going to Magnet School in the City where *I* was the minority.
Funny thing is that my African American peers at school were brutally honest about race relations such that left an impression in my life. I think that the city-life made them more pragmatic about their outlook in life.
It's this: Using any words with racial overtones is equally bad. Because the moment you start saying one word in context is worse than the other, it's easier to fall into the reverse-racism trap.
It isn't that simple, because words with racial meanings are used all the time in non-racist contexts, and simply refusing to be part can actually end up looking racist.
I'll give you an example, in the country I used to play in a cricket team with a pretty strong aboriginal contingent, and they'd throw around all sorts of terms that I would never have used when I lived in the city. One time after I'd just shared a good laugh with one guy, he grabbed me around the shoulders and said 'this guy is my boong brother'... and I said 'yeah, we're boong brothers'. Now boong is just like the n-word, and there's no way in hell I'd just say it in regular conversation (I actually feel a bit odd typing it...) but in that situation it would have been weird and kind of racist for me to say 'actually I don't like that word and I won't say'.
It's all in the context of the situation.
Eh...
At the end of the day, all that really matters is how the recipient takes it. All I'm saying is that racism... is racism.
I'm not talking about folks who knows each other and calls each other names in jest.
Racism is more than a offensive word, if the only thing white people have to worry about in this country is being called a cracker then we have gotten off lucky compared to how some are treated.
Worst case of racism Iv personally witnessed is when a group of kids in my area beat a "Arab looking kid" half to death and they said they only did it because they thought he was a Muslim terrorist.
Except the kid was from Morocco and was christian.
You act like we're a protected species. Spend some time in some non-touristy areas in Hawaii. Walk through E. St. Louis, Detroit, Philly, etc... Racism against whites is very real out there. It's just more "accepted".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/02/13 19:02:15
Subject: The Non-Zimmerman Shooting Teens in Florida Thread
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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Perhaps they jury wants to see a recreation of the scene at the time of the shooting, and see which scenario is the most likely based on the facts as reported.
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