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azreal13 wrote: Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
I think it means that when they explode, they explode with a huge bang.
No, it means when they lose their last hull point they explode with a big bang, like what it says in the rules.
Exactly, when they explode they explode with a huge bang, I never mentioned charts or anything, I just said they make big explosions when they die. I use my malcador defender for that one rule.
Right, it read more like you were disagreeing with my post, rather than just adding to it.
All good, I wrote it at the same time, just really slowly
Still seems a bit silly to make it a super heavy when they could sell more if it were simply a MC (and Knights really are very small when compared to actual titans).. Oh well, GW must believe a majority of people even paid attention to escalation.
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azreal13 wrote: ... fire all weapons regardless of anything, at different targets for each weapon,
When they only have a single main gun and a heavy stubber or two, that's not really devastating.
It seems that just spreading out a couple of heavy support units at opposite ends of your deployment zone (to get around the single-facing shield) would see it come unstuck fairly quickly.
If it wasn't across the table by turn two, fair point. You'll get two chances to shoot it, at most, and one could easily point the AV13 one way and 4++ the other, depending on the weaponry.
It isn't indestructible, but it is going to have to be target priority one for your opponent, and even then they'll need to have a tailored list or a modicum of luck to stop it taking their head off.
I'm half tempted to get one to bully the WAAC Eldar player at our club who took a WK at the 500 points level of our slow grow, beginners league for 40K!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
azreal13 wrote: ... fire all weapons regardless of anything, at different targets for each weapon,
When they only have a single main gun and a heavy stubber or two, that's not really devastating.
It seems that just spreading out a couple of heavy support units at opposite ends of your deployment zone (to get around the single-facing shield) would see it come unstuck fairly quickly.
If it wasn't across the table by turn two, fair point. You'll get two chances to shoot it, at most, and one could easily point the AV13 one way and 4++ the other, depending on the weaponry.
It isn't indestructible, but it is going to have to be target priority one for your opponent, and even then they'll need to have a tailored list or a modicum of luck to stop it taking their head off.
I'm half tempted to get one to bully the WAAC Eldar player at our club who took a WK at the 500 points level of our slow grow, beginners league for 40K!
The wraithknight is better tho, it has 6 wounds which only can be removed 1 at a time, an armor save of 3+ vs no armor save and costs a lot less. AV13 is a big hinderance especially since it's probably going to be like 13/13/11 or 13/12/12. 1 dude with a melta has a great chance to do D3+1 HP to the Knight. If I want a large blast melta I'll take a cestus, if I want 2 battle cannons uh I guess I can take 2 leman russ tanks (or just not use battle cannons). I play a lot of apoc with a variety of rules so I have a pretty good idea of how super heavies perform (or don't perform.. usually don't perform unless they got some crazy firepower)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 03:53:39
Keeper of the DomBox
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azreal13 wrote: ... fire all weapons regardless of anything, at different targets for each weapon,
When they only have a single main gun and a heavy stubber or two, that's not really devastating.
It seems that just spreading out a couple of heavy support units at opposite ends of your deployment zone (to get around the single-facing shield) would see it come unstuck fairly quickly.
If it wasn't across the table by turn two, fair point. You'll get two chances to shoot it, at most, and one could easily point the AV13 one way and 4++ the other, depending on the weaponry.
It isn't indestructible, but it is going to have to be target priority one for your opponent, and even then they'll need to have a tailored list or a modicum of luck to stop it taking their head off.
I'm half tempted to get one to bully the WAAC Eldar player at our club who took a WK at the 500 points level of our slow grow, beginners league for 40K!
The wraithknight is better tho, it has 6 wounds which only can be removed 1 at a time, an armor save of 3+ vs no armor save and costs a lot less. AV13 is a big hinderance especially since it's probably going to be like 13/13/11 or 13/12/12. 1 dude with a melta has a great chance to do D3+1 HP to the Knight. If I want a large blast melta I'll take a cestus, if I want 2 battle cannons uh I guess I can take 2 leman russ tanks (or just not use battle cannons)
Strength D means multiple wounds on a 2+, ludicrous amounts of wounds in a 6 (D6+6 IIRC) with no saves of any kind.
It can knock a WK on its arse in one hit, the reverse is possible, but requires a lot better rolling.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 03:54:11
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Can it? I didn't realize it's CC attack had RANGE. You can't simply assume it'll get into CC, when it's slower than the wraithknight.
Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy. To be good super heavies need to take ADVANTAGE of their rules to shoot lots of guns and suffer no damage except death. This thing has 1 gun and who cares about strength D close combat, that's almost meaningless in real games.
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I was getting kind of excited, but seeing that puts me right off. Maybe the kit will be so beautiful I'll buy one for a display piece...or terrain, or something.
Such a weird way of making some things MCs and others walkers. Do they have a lottery to determine it?
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Fluff wise, this is the only sensible option. It makes no sense as an MC, and regular walkers are too weak. Super-heavy walkers all have crazy S weapons though, and lots of people (myself included) feel that D weapons are inappropriate for regular 40K.
Kirasu wrote: Can it? I didn't realize it's CC attack had RANGE. You can't simply assume it'll get into CC, when it's slower than the wraithknight.
Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy. To be good super heavies need to take ADVANTAGE of their rules to shoot lots of guns and suffer no damage except death. This thing has 1 gun and who cares about strength D close combat, that's almost meaningless in real games.
It moves 12" a turn, plus charge, plus it can tank shock the WK before it charges (at least I can't see any exclusion in escalation for walkers, it just says super heavy vehicles) which is potentially 2D6 S10 AP2 hits, or, more likely s6 hits, which won't bother a WK, but will bother a Tide, HoW when it charges, and assuming its still standing, stomp at I1 for a potential number of extra D (effectively) hits. Stomps do have range, as subsequent blasts after the first can be placed up to 3" away from the first, so yes, it can kick a Wraithknight in the face, at range, and instakill it with the right rolls.
Without even assaulting it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 04:02:47
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I was getting kind of excited, but seeing that puts me right off. Maybe the kit will be so beautiful I'll buy one for a display piece...or terrain, or something.
Such a weird way of making some things MCs and others walkers. Do they have a lottery to determine it?
Obviously they use a random chart and a narrative..
Yeah, I hope it's a great model because for Apoc I rarely use GW's rules as written, I tend to take their decent ideas and actually make them work in a fun way so not a big deal to change the rules of this Knight assuming it has a good model.
Kirasu wrote: Can it? I didn't realize it's CC attack had RANGE. You can't simply assume it'll get into CC, when it's slower than the wraithknight.
Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy. To be good super heavies need to take ADVANTAGE of their rules to shoot lots of guns and suffer no damage except death. This thing has 1 gun and who cares about strength D close combat, that's almost meaningless in real games.
It moves 12" a turn, plus charge, plus it can tank shock the WK before it charges (at least I can't see any exclusion in escalation for walkers, it just says super heavy vehicles) HoW when it charges, and assuming its still standing, stomp at I1 for a potential number of extra D (effectively) hits. Stomps do have range, as subsequent blasts after the first can be placed up to 3" away from the first, so yes, it can kick a Wraithknight in the face, at range, and instakill it with the right rolls.
Without even assaulting it.
That doesn't even make sense, how can it instant kill it without assaulting? It has a battle cannon. So what the wraith knight jumps 12" a turn, you're using a lot of assumptions that depend on a totally braindead Eldar player.. not an Eldar player who knows how to play 40k even a little bit. All that's going to happen is you'll rush this thing up to engage the wraith knight who is ALSO moving 12" and then die to wave serpents in side/rear, fire dragons, wraith cannons or whatever the Eldar player has.
I'm sorry but I've been running apoc games since it came out in 2008 and this is NOT a good super heavy. It's just another overpriced imperial super heavy vehicle with a battle cannon. If it was AV14 tho...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 04:06:11
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Kirasu wrote: Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy.
Isn't putting "DOA" and "super heavy" in the same sentence somewhat redundant? Outside of things that have multiple multi-shot D weapons, are there any super heavies that perform to their points cost? Does the Khornemower live up to its (obviously derived-by-fluff-and-not-by-use) 888 point price tag? Does the Baneblade leave all of its 525 points on the table? Does the Vulcan Macharius feel like 405 points well spent?
I was getting kind of excited, but seeing that puts me right off. Maybe the kit will be so beautiful I'll buy one for a display piece...or terrain, or something.
Such a weird way of making some things MCs and others walkers. Do they have a lottery to determine it?
Obviously they use a random chart and a narrative..
Yeah, I hope it's a great model because for Apoc I rarely use GW's rules as written, I tend to take their decent ideas and actually make them work in a fun way so not a big deal to change the rules of this Knight assuming it has a good model.
Silly me, I'm not thinking in narratives.
Anyways, I would have been happy with a buffed MC statline. Well that and maybe a better gun option. Heavy stubbers, seriously?
I guess it can move 12" after checking the apoc rules again. Meh, still pretty fragile for the points cost and its only redeeming feature is the S: D melee weapon. I guess its fluffy? Sorry, narrative-y?
*Edit* Maybe I'm wrong on all this its the greatest thing since...something great. I just can't shake the feeling that a 6HP AV13 vehicle (even with a facing of 4++) is pretty fragile for 370pts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 04:07:33
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Isn't putting "DOA" and "super heavy" in the same sentence somewhat redundant? Outside of things that have multiple multi-shot D weapons, are there any super heavies that perform to their points cost? Does the Khornemower live up to its (obviously derived-by-fluff-and-not-by-use) 888 point price tag? Does the Baneblade leave all of its 525 points on the table? Does the Vulcan Macharius feel like 405 points well spent?
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Kirasu wrote: Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy.
Isn't putting "DOA" and "super heavy" in the same sentence somewhat redundant? Outside of things that have multiple multi-shot D weapons, are there any super heavies that perform to their points cost? Does the Khornemower live up to its (obviously derived-by-fluff-and-not-by-use) 888 point price tag? Does the Baneblade leave all of its 525 points on the table? Does the Vulcan Macharius feel like 405 points well spent?
Truth, there are not very many super heavies I consider good even tho I own a ton. The new variant baneblade that is a Hellhammer upgrade is generally good (with its long range S10 ignores cover 10" blast gun).. but yeah it is over 500 points. Generally to be a solid choice it needs to be able to survive longer than a normal vehicle to deliver more firepower AND have many more guns than a normal vehicle (depending on points). For a 500 pt super heavy I'd say it needs to have 4-5x the firepower of a 150 pt vehicle. In general GW is pretty bad at designing super heavies but what else is new.
Or it needs to do something useful such as the SM super heavy raider with the feedback gun that totally shuts down titans basically (or be a large/fast assault vehicle). Unfortunately, other units can fire battle cannons and attack things in CC so it's not horribly useful.
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
Okay I'll agree here, IT is better than an awful CSM demon prince with way too many upgrades :p
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 04:14:56
Keeper of the DomBox
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This makes me feel like GW is trying to crowbar Escalation onto tabletops. This, coupled with the 6.5 rulebook rumor (which might incorporate the supplements into the book itself) make it seem like that may be their aim. Turning this game into Apoc. . .first it was flyers, now it is super-heavies (if all the rumors are true).
Wonder if it makes it into the Imperial. . err. . .Astra Militaris codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 04:25:32
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tomjoad wrote: Fluff wise, this is the only sensible option. It makes no sense as an MC, ....
Only because GW are maintaining that divide between vehicles and other units. The choice to cast the Wraithknight and Riptide as MCs instead was a ray of hope that maybe GW were starting to work to wards consolidating walkers into the MC rules, but alas, it seems that this is not to be.
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puma713 wrote: This makes me feel like GW is trying to crowbar Escalation onto tabletops.
The very existence of Escalation in the first place didn't tell you that ...?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 04:27:33
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
Okay I'll agree here, IT is better than an awful CSM demon prince with way too many upgrades :p
Yeah, cause flying, mastery 3 Tzeentch princes with armour are simply awful
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 04:29:43
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I'm just going to through my two cents in here on super heavy's and apocalypse. I bought escalation and a shadow sword but I only did it for fun games not to run in every game ( I figured that after one game). I like escalation and super heavy's they should be playable in fun games if both players agree..... They should not be forced down on the players wish GW would get the hint
azreal13 wrote: It isn't indestructible, but it is going to have to be target priority one for your opponent, ...
It's a stonkin' great walker stomping up the middle of the table. It should be target priority one
Plus, going with Escalation rules it's a free VP for every three hull points. Fielding a superheavy of any kind means it's going to be shot at like there's no tomorrow
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
Okay I'll agree here, IT is better than an awful CSM demon prince with way too many upgrades :p
Yeah, cause flying, mastery 3 Tzeentch princes with armour are simply awful
I'm glad we agree that a 350 points T5 model with 4 wounds are awful!
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ultimentra wrote: To me, superheavy means, will never see the light of day in any sensible 40k game at my LGS. Unless your playing Apoc, leave the supers at home.
Instead of this dead weight release, they should have just given us our damn IG codex.
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puma713 wrote: This makes me feel like GW is trying to crowbar Escalation onto tabletops.
The very existence of Escalation in the first place didn't tell you that ...?
Maybe I should've rephrased. . ."into mainstream 40K."
I concur. It's sad to see the rules are what they are, but GW is mostly miss when it comes to rules as opposed to hit. What's interesting are the implications. Big kits don't sell if people at the back of their minds are worrying they won't be able to use the model in games. That's the entire purpose of the Escalation rules supplement -- To boost the sales of Stompas, Baneblades, Khornemowers, Necron crap, Forceworld, etc. Now they release more Lords of War plastic kits, but people still feel it won't be allowed in games, meaning the sales will be lower than otherwise.
If GW knows what's good for them in this regard they'll have to write the lords of war into the core rules as crystal clear as possible come summer. Otherwise they'll have a dozen kits people consider illegal (because these guys themselves can't afford them or cba painting them).
As far as the rules are concerned, being a super-heavy walker is atleast better than being just a walker. Superheavies are sort of monstrous creatures anyway since the hull points operate similarly to wounds and it can't be shaken, stunned or immobilised etc. I wouldn't be so outraged about that. It's weak vs. Necron weaponry but them's the breaks. If it gets shot by a strength D weapon it has a larger chance of survival than a Wraithknight which just dies on a 2+. The points cost is the worrying part, but it can make its points back with one good combat phase. It destroys Seer Councils, Screamerstars, MCs and vehicles in combat, and it gets to pop a couple large pie plates at units on the way there. Just remember the difference between 'omg cheesy' and 'that sucks' is so small. If it cost 300 points it might be the best unit in the game. If it costs 375 points? We'll see.
The actual problem is the metagame in which lords of war slots are allowed. If you get to pick one LoW you won't pick a Knight Paladin when the other guys are running Warhounds, Revenants or bigger. Unless of course this is the first super-heavy (with a D weapon no less) that doesn't use a Lord of War slot, and is just heavy support or whatever. Now that would be interesting. Coteaz and his BFF henchmen, 3 Knights and a Warhound in 2000pts?
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/02/14 05:20:27
The thing is, even if they write them solidly into the rules, people will not allow them in games if they feel unbalanced.
There are still people out there who question the use of Special Characters, despite them only actuallyy requiring your opponent's permission for a relatively brief period (and even then permission not being required for all of them) due to so many players just refusing to play against them in 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition.
Shoehorning Apocalypse into regular games won't get people to accept superheavies. Writing rules that people perceive as allowing the use of superheavies without requiring armies to be specifically tailored to realistically go up against them is what will do that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/14 05:14:35
Ha! Who is copying who now? This looks to be a blatant attempt to capture some of Dreamforge's current lockdown on big stompy gothic robots.
While I don't care for any big stompy gothic robots, I hope Mark crushes them in the marketplace. There is no way they come out priced less than Mark's 15mm leviathians, and there is a pretty good chance they can't compete on quality/poseability/modularity either.
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