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I guess we weren't likely to avoid the whole "I hate superheavies in normal games" thing getting retreaded, clearly that's unresolved, but we only think it's a superheavy because of something Natfka said, and he's 50/50 at best, right? Maybe we'd benefit from cooling it until we've got confirmation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/14 08:57:54
Therion wrote: I'll gladly play a game with no allies and no fortifications.
You dislike fortifications that much? I'd've thought they'd be the least offensive of the new things.
They don't add anything positive. Sure they aren't as offensive as allies, flyers and superheavies, all of which can create armies that the other guy loses to 100-0 unless he is prepared specifically for them, but they're still bad. It's visually displeasing to have two fortifications facing eachother. On top of that they feel like an always taken for many armies, seeing as many fortifications are underpriced for what they do. They also create problems for tournament organisers as you need to design tables with deployment zones that have room for large extra buildings. They're also a nightmare from a modelling for advantage perspective. In short, they're a needless addition to standard 40K play, and I wouldn't mind them go the way of superheavies, allies, flyers, wacky magical terrain rules, etc, into pre-arranged campaign play.
Basically everything added during 6th edition has been bad for balance. 40K needs to become a skirmish game again or atleast a game between just tank hordes because its easier to manage and fits the current table sizes better. To me the only other option is to just allow everything. I can't stand the people who are picking and choosing that their 1000 point allied Seer Council is fine and that the army with 12 flyers is fine, but a guy with a Revenant or a Knight Paladin is somehow crossing the line.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 09:16:02
Therion wrote: ... They also create problems for tournament organisers as you need to design tables with deployment zones that have room for large extra buildings
Or just go the 'players set up the terrain' option from the rulebook, which is what TOs around here seem to be going for.
Say what you want about the Riptide and whatever the Eldar Voltron thing is, but they have their MC status rooted to the fact that their "little brothers" have MC profiles as well. If broadsides had a similar profile to sentinels or something and then we got the riptide as an MC, I could see the issue, but it really shouldn't surprise anybody that the Knight will probably be a Walker and not MC.
Marines, Terminators and the centurions have wounds - so by that logic Dreadnoughts should be MC's as well?
Riptides are too good for their points - especially as MC's but that train has departed
I'll gladly play a game with no allies and no fortifications.
I'd gladly play a game with no cheese units like Wave Serpents - All are in the rules and its up to people to decide what they want to use or not use - a lot of people ignore elements of the rules - including most tourneys - such as Mysterious Objectives so 40k seems to be increasingly becoming a menu to choose which elements of it your group wants to use.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out?
What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm convinced the 60" multi-shot Serpent Field was a mistake that made it through to the printers.
Quite a huge mistake then, for the most experienced rules-writer of GW team. And it is not a isolated mistake also. Phil Kelly apparently wanted to copy what Tau codex had with their multinode markerlights, so shoehorned a reroll granted by scatter laser. This is where I wish the design team made some probability math before laying down stupid rules on their books. When using TL scatter lasers, Wave Serpent score an amazing 99.985 % probability of twin-linking their other weapons against ground targets, including an already overpowered shock wave field, it should be obvious that something is wrong.
Kroothawk wrote:Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out? What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
By normal armies, do you include those absurdities of jetbike deathstars with rerollable 2+ saves ? And support weapon madness spam, laying down the hurt from a skyshield and so on... Unrestricted WH40k tournament play has gone out of control due to fortifications and allies matrix anyway.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/14 11:22:06
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm convinced the 60" multi-shot Serpent Field was a mistake that made it through to the printers.
If only they errata'd it to be a much more sane 24" or 30"
One shot and/or 12" range would be more realistic - could then also drop some points but presently its a pretty horrifically powerful multi-role weapons platform that to be fair (and compounding the problem) is the only DT that Eldar players have - another error.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 11:27:22
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
At least wave serpents aren't invincible any more?
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out? What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
You're not going to like this post at all but I actually quite like the sound of a couple of titanic dudes fighting it out while a normal battle goes on around them. Now that there's rumoured to be a big imperial walker, I'm thinking about getting one and a Wraithknight for Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé, just to see them face off across the table while the footsloggers wrestle on the ground.
But I'm the kind of muppet they're pitching the "forging a narrative" crap to, really, I don't play in tournaments and I don't care that much about balance. If it fits the fiction (which admittedly half the time with modern GW, it doesn't), I'm in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 11:34:29
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out?
What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
You're not going to like this post at all but I actually quite like the sound of a couple of titanic dudes fighting it out while a normal battle goes on around them. Now that there's rumoured to be a big imperial walker, I'm thinking about getting one and a Wraithknight for Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé, just to see them face off across the table while the footsloggers wrestle on the ground.
But I'm the kind of muppet they're pitching the "forging a narrative" crap to, really, I don't play in tournaments and I don't care that much about balance. If it fits the fiction (which admittedly half the time with modern GW, it doesn't), I'm in.
You're lying. Everyone only ever plays competitive tournaments. Narrative Gaming is nothing but an excuse by GW to hide the fact that they are purposefully flipping the bird to their "only" customers. There is no market for narrative.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm convinced the 60" multi-shot Serpent Field was a mistake that made it through to the printers.
If only they errata'd it to be a much more sane 24" or 30"
Given the mobility of WS this would not be a big deal. From Epic SM/TL old days WS had an huge range, so they wanted to bring it back in WH40k, this is understandable. But it should have been heavy 2 at most (for the 2 hull wings of WS). Or a single big blast, powerful but less versatile.
ph34r wrote:At least wave serpents aren't invincible any more?
WS put out an average of 4 strength 7 hits, which on the Paladin / Errant gives 4/3 hull points with an appropriately chosen facing. For one paladin, you get nearly THREE wave serpents. And if the big imperial knight really becomes a problem, don't forget eldar can swap their scatter laser for a bright lance, gratis. And take wraithknights for dual S:10 shots. So, no, WS will still rule the tables.
I think the facts that the Imperial Knight is a form of Walker, and that it is a Lord of War instead of a spammable Heavy or Elite option, already makes it inferior to the Wraithknight and Riptide.
Both of which are monstrous creatures that cannot explode quickly, have a series of armor and invulnerable saves, and can be taken in force.
I would not pay nearly 400 pts for a Lord of War with a two-shot Battle Cannon and some Heavy Stubbers!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 11:56:59
I'm more than happy with my 15mm leviathans subbing in as knights (riptides) in my adep-taus-mechanicus army the size is bang on and fit nicely with the not over ornamented aesthetic of the forgeworld legio cybernetics models. If this turns out to be enormous id be more likely to run it as a reasonable cost rule set for a war hound.
Ravajaxe wrote: WS put out an average of 4 strength 7 hits, which on the Paladin / Errant gives 4/3 hull points with an appropriately chosen facing. For one paladin, you get nearly THREE wave serpents. And if the big imperial knight really becomes a problem, don't forget eldar can swap their scatter laser for a bright lance, gratis. And take wraithknights for dual S:10 shots. So, no, WS will still rule the tables.
Yeah, but at least they can die this edition.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
via Imber from the Faeit 212 inbox
Kits are in US and have been for some time, at least a week. Insider surprised it took this long to leak. From sounds of it, wide access to loyalist armies.
Also a store is already accepting pre-orders for Imperial Knights. Store name withheld for obvious reasons.
via a store in Arizona's Facebook page
Pre-Order the Imperial Knight Titan, and the WD with it's rules at the shop now!!!
(Superheavy walkers, not MCs, which is kind of a relief considering I've had enough MCs for a fething lifetime. Yes, this means they get Stomp, Hammer of Wrath, and all that bull.)
Paladin: 75 guardsmen cost, Errant is 74. Both are Stormraven AVs with +1 front armor and double the HP, with a 4+ invul on one facing that you choose during opponent's Shooting (but not CC or overwatch). Marine WS, BS, and I, Captain number of attacks with a strength D chainsword. Paladin is armed with a 2-shot battle cannon, and Errant has a +1S 36" large blast melta. Hilariously, the Errant has a single heavy stubber, while the Paladin has 2(!!).
So, the LGS owner did a crazy thing and proxied 5 of them using Riptides against a CSM player. Promptly proceeded to murder all 9 deep-striking oblits, all the cultists, and the suicide terminator squad (Let it be said, the ability to position the deflector shield *after* movement is finished is pretty damn powerful...). Only lost because of the Chaos Spawn and HQ hid on the second level of a ruin, and the 2 Heldrakes having ridiculously good luck on their Vector Strike rolls."
I know I'm late to the party but I have to say, that's one sexy giant walker!
Do want!
"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill
Smashotron wrote: I think the facts that the Imperial Knight is a form of Walker, and that it is a Lord of War instead of a spammable Heavy or Elite option, already makes it inferior to the Wraithknight and Riptide.
Both of which are monstrous creatures that cannot explode quickly, have a series of armor and invulnerable saves, and can be taken in force.
I would not pay nearly 400 pts for a Lord of War with a two-shot Battle Cannon and some Heavy Stubbers!
Assuming that with the rumored new 6.1 edition this summer, there isn't a distinction between models using superheavy rules and models in the lord of war slot.
The color choices, markings and other indicators put it inline with art/painting from the last year or two from the GW studio as well. It definately looks as though an actual picture was touched up, adding details like parchment looking bits under the gun, or perhaps a 3D render which was then touched up in Photoshop. IIRC though, GW has started doing that in some of their propaganda art anyway, so that isnt a give away that it is fake at all.
Almost everything about the figure is different from Epic period knights. You can go back and take a look at them on sites like Stuff of Legends, and the way legs are built, weapons are designed and especially artistic styles are different from then to this image.
Regarding the photo, I don't see anything that would say it's a fake. The Knight looks like a painted model - there's plenty of detail in the parts, and I don't see anything that couldn't be painted plastic, considering that the model is supposed to be quite big. Also, all the details in the model are 100% GW style. The photo looks like the model is put close to the building models, then photographed from below with a wide angle lens, which makes the flamer look a bit distorted.
Further, it looks like the image is on a loose shiny paper, based on the flash reflection and slight warping of the text, meaning that the paper is curved like a magazine page could be. From the lack of other details, I'd guess it might be the 'next issue' back page of WD.
Of course you could manufacture such image, but it would take a ton of work. 3d or photoshop the model to look like it's a model kit, photoshop it into existing background, print on shiny paper and photograph it. Seems like too much work to be a hoax.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/14 12:15:37
streetsamurai wrote: I dont take seriously rumours from random unproven folks unless they're are some pics.
First, that mystery manager claims it's a Lord orf War. Then he plays a demo game with proxies spamming FIVE of them.
Fishy.
Who really knows these days? Dataslate units don't take take force organisation slots unless specified, and if the Knights are released as a form of a dataslate in the WD, it might not take any slots at all. It would explain people just incorrectly calling it a lord of war when they just mean it's a superheavy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/14 12:50:24
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out?
What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
You're not going to like this post at all but I actually quite like the sound of a couple of titanic dudes fighting it out while a normal battle goes on around them. Now that there's rumoured to be a big imperial walker, I'm thinking about getting one and a Wraithknight for Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé, just to see them face off across the table while the footsloggers wrestle on the ground.
But I'm the kind of muppet they're pitching the "forging a narrative" crap to, really, I don't play in tournaments and I don't care that much about balance. If it fits the fiction (which admittedly half the time with modern GW, it doesn't), I'm in.
You're lying. Everyone only ever plays competitive tournaments. Narrative Gaming is nothing but an excuse by GW to hide the fact that they are purposefully flipping the bird to their "only" customers. There is no market for narrative.
Just in case anyone plans to take exception to this, although it seems most are doing well at overlooking/ignoring it, please be aware that this is one of Zwei's favourite "thread derailment, everyone look at me" topics, so please, with as much humility as I can offer, please don't indulge him.
OT I'm still really excited for the model, but I think the rules have reduced my purchase plans from camping outside for the local GW to open on release day with a wedge of notes to order from discounter eventually, perhaps even as far as buy one from eBay if it hasn't been utterly destroyed by poly cement and Dulux paint.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/14 13:04:27
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I've downgraded my own pre-order to just the White Dwarf with the rules. Seeing as it's a super-heavy, I don't have a real need for more than one model at the moment. Escalation isn't played over here and Apocalypse is quite rare as is.
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out?
What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
You're not going to like this post at all but I actually quite like the sound of a couple of titanic dudes fighting it out while a normal battle goes on around them. Now that there's rumoured to be a big imperial walker, I'm thinking about getting one and a Wraithknight for Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé, just to see them face off across the table while the footsloggers wrestle on the ground.
But I'm the kind of muppet they're pitching the "forging a narrative" crap to, really, I don't play in tournaments and I don't care that much about balance. If it fits the fiction (which admittedly half the time with modern GW, it doesn't), I'm in.
You're lying. Everyone only ever plays competitive tournaments. Narrative Gaming is nothing but an excuse by GW to hide the fact that they are purposefully flipping the bird to their "only" customers. There is no market for narrative.
Just in case anyone plans to take exception to this, although it seems most are doing well at overlooking/ignoring it, please be aware that this is one of Zwei's favourite "thread derailment, everyone look at me" topics, so please, with as much humility as I can offer, please don't indulge him.
OT I'm still really excited for the model, but I think the rules have reduced my purchase plans from camping outside for the local GW to open on release day with a wedge of notes to order from discounter eventually, perhaps even as far as buy one from eBay if it hasn't been utterly destroyed by poly cement and Dulux paint.
It is a bit of his patented "Swoop-n-Poop", isn't it?
Combine that with the general lack of 'tone' on the Internet, and Bad Things usually happen.
Still, good to see that they haven't yet, and that everyone is staying the course...?
Renegade Guardsmen 
