Imperial Knights - Codex Preview Video 03/03 - Gasp! Probably worth watching!

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**Zweischneid**

yakface wrote:

These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.

But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.

That's the stupid terrible curse of GW releasing rules where 'D' weapons cost no extra points when they are, far and away, the best weapons in the game. That makes any Escalation unit without them utter garbage.

So the only real question is...are Knights Lords of War or not? The text from the WD seems to maybe indicate they're not, but the fact that they are a super-heavy vehicle and have 'D' weapons (things that only Lords of War are/get) kind of suggests that they are...will have to wait and see the full rules to be sure.

But really, since Knights are super-heavies and have 'D' CC weapons, I have a hard time believing that this will suddenly be the line that gets drawn in the sand where people can easily say that Knights are okay to include (because they don't have ranged 'D' weapons) while all other actual Lords of War are not allowed. It just makes no sense. GW is clearly going to keep pushing this direction, so to me it seems inevitable that either Knights are going to need to be banned in tournaments, or all Lords of War are going to have to be allowed.

And if you allow other Lords of War, then Knights are a terrible, terrible, terrible choice.

The only thing I think we can hope and pray for is for GW to release a '7th edition' as rumored that fundamentally changes the 'D' rule, calming it down and making it not such a bonkers-obvious choice over every weapon type (for no additional points cost). But given that they've *JUST* released Apocalypse and Escalation with the 'D' weapon rules in them, makes me doubt that this is a realistic possibility.

It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.

Problem solved.

**H.B.M.C.**

Zweischneid wrote:
It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.

OMG Zwei you're a genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before???

And why ban FW?

**Kanluwen**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.

OMG Zwei you're a genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before???

And why ban FW?

FW models have the "Terror" and "Wallet Strike(Critical)" special rules.

**Zweischneid**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.

OMG Zwei you're a genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before???

And why ban FW?

Ban?

You don't ban.

But if the problems Yak mention worry you, it's an obvious solution you could mutually agree on. It's also a very easy solution that TOs can add to any event with a single line of text that avoids long convoluted lists and exceptions.

It's a highly practical "line".

**Platuan4th**

Zweischneid wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.

OMG Zwei you're a genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before???

And why ban FW?

Ban?

You don't ban.

But if the problems Yak mention worry you, it's an obvious solution you could mutually agree on.

Because no GW "main" kit has a ranged D weapon.

**warboss**

Zweischneid wrote:
Thud wrote:
Looks pretty cool, but what I'm really interested in is the pricing. If it's priced as a Lord of Skulls (£95) that's a big hell no from me, no matter how much the fanbois can justify it.

Why? DreamForge Leviathans are £95 RRP, and everyone keeps gushing about how amazing a value that is. Warmachine Colossals are even more expensive, and aren't even plastic.

Aren't they bigger than the knights though and don't they have articulated joints which no GW kits so far have? People have been gushing about the DF leviathans for more than just the price.

**bu11etmagn3tt**

Kosake wrote:
So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*

Haters gonna hate...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

prankster wrote:
Posted over at La Taberna de Laurana:

Giddy as can be over this!

**Therion**

Mr.Omega wrote:
By the logic of the Knight rules Riptides should be priced closer to 300 points. Little difference in durability, slight downgrade in regards to the Thermal Cannon with the charged IA, and all you really lose after that is a slightly better invuln and the CC ability.

But, for little more they have Interceptor or a better invuln (FNP essentially makes their 5++ re-rollable) and the ability to JSJ, ignore night fighting, double range on the big gun by default.

2 Riptides with nothing but Ion Accelerators cost the same as one Knight Paladin. Riptides on overcharge shoot 2x S8 AP2 large blast and 10x S5 smart missiles. Paladin shoots 2x S8 AP3 and 6x S4 stubber shots. Riptides got 10 T6 wounds with a 2+, while the Paladin has 6 superheavy HPs on AV13 and 4+ save. There's no question that for the price the Riptides shoot better and survive more. That said, will 2 Riptides beat a Knight Paladin heads up? I actually kind of doubt it. I think after 6 turns one of the Riptides is dead and the other and the Knight still live. Additionally, the CC power of the Knight is vastly superior to that of 2 Riptides. It's superior to that of four Riptides, and because of that it's vulnerable to very different things, and counters a lot more things. Frankly I don't think Tau will do very well vs. the future armies that employ Knights either as primary detachment or as allies. You'll also have to take into consideration you can put more points into Knights than you can into Riptides, meaning you can swing the target saturation more in your favour. We also need to see if Knights are in fact scoring for the household army, which again is another perk worth a lot of points. I'd say a wargear item that would make a Riptide or a Wraithknight scoring would be worth almost 50 points just on its own, since it would mean you need to spend a lot less on garbage troops that never amount to anything.

**dementedwombat**

Kirasu wrote:
dementedwombat wrote:
I play Tau....I don't like this thing. I can't think of an easy way to kill it! It all comes back to that 4+ invulnerable save. I guess I'll have to try flanking them from 2 sides with melta battlesuits or something. Might be enough to make me actually start deep striking them again.

If I start seeing them then it will probably dramatically speed up my decision to buy that Tigershark AX-1-0. Hmmm...3 barracudas and one of those in the Lord of War slot supported by lots of deep striking battlesuits. Tau close air support cadre anyone?

Anyway, back on topic.

?? It's only armor 13 with 6 Hp that means it's the same as killing 2 necron vehicles generally, just because it's a super heavy doesn't mean it's difficult to kill..sheesh. Just spam missiles at it and bring it down with glances or yeah meltas work, or riptides or anything really..If you can't 2 necron vehicles as Tau then there is a serious issue going on.

It's only a 4+ invul :p that's pretty common

Mostly just because a combination of my local meta and the kind of army I like to play has bent my tau force selection very strangely compared to what the "standard" tau list looks like (i.e. I have no broadsides in my army and one riptide).

That and I'm not used to invulnerable saves on vehicles that aren't Dark Eldar (and as such burst into flames when you squint at them regardless).

**bu11etmagn3tt**

Perfect timing GW! Coincides with Titanfall coming out! KaRazie!

**Crimson**

People are so accustomed to this being a shooting edition that they forget that CC exists. The Knight will utterly wreck most units in CC, and it has decent shooting on top of that. However, you have to use the Knight aggressively to get its points worth of destruction; if you just use it like it was a Leman Russ on legs, it won't be that impressive.

**Bonde**

Platuan4th wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.

OMG Zwei you're a genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before???

And why ban FW?

Ban?

You don't ban.

But if the problems Yak mention worry you, it's an obvious solution you could mutually agree on.

Because no GW "main" kit has a ranged D weapon.

That is not true, the Shadowsword tank does.

**Crimson**

As for GW Knight vs. Leviathan, I think the GW kit looks much better. Leviathan has those silly looking feet I can't stand, and overall the GW Knight is just a perfect piece of gothic loveliness. To me there is no contest and the price really doesn't affect that; I will get the model I like over the model I don't like, even if it ended up costing a bit more.

**Azreal13**

Crimson wrote:
People are so accustomed to this being a shooting edition that they forget that CC exists. The Knight will utterly wreck most units in CC, and it has decent shooting on top of that. However, you have to use the Knight aggressively to get its points worth of destruction; if you just use it like it was a Leman Russ on legs, it won't be that impressive.

Quite.

Frankly, given it's speed and CC ability, if it isn't in assault by turn two, there needs to be a good reason you've decided against it, or a very clever opponent across from you.

**dementedwombat**

Aw heck...I just remembered one of my opponents plays drop pods. 3 drop pods raining down on the table turn 1 and this monstrosity halfway across the board in my face... the mind recoils in horror.

**Illumini**

These look great from both a gaming and modelling stand point. Can`t wait to fight some of these guys.

**JWBS**

It's ok, it'll come down to price for me. I prefer The Hoff knight pattern and since I have stuff to make a couple that I'll probably never get to i can't imagine I'll be buying many of these (none if they're £60+ after net discount)

**xttz**

yakface wrote:

These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.

But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation.

I'm honestly struggling to work out how Nid players can deal with more than one of them. Their rear armour is still decent, and can be boosted with the movable invuln save making them hard to glance down. Rupture cannons are the only high-strength codex weapon that can reasonably stay out of charge range. Then of course, anything that does try to melee a Knight just melts. They even beat Scythed Hierodules 1vs1, and that's a melee-focused GC costing 1.5 times the points. I guess the only option is to out-shoot it by spending a crapload of points on a Barbed Hierodule or Harridan.

Of course this may have more to do with how bad Tyranids fare in Escalation/Apoc...

Kanluwen wrote:

FW models have the "Terror" and "Wallet Strike(Critical)" special rules.

Dude. Preferred Enemy (wallet).

**Illumini**

xttz wrote:
yakface wrote:

These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.

But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation.

I'm honestly struggling to work out how Nid players can deal with more than one of them. Their rear armour is still decent, and can be boosted with the movable invuln save making them hard to glance down. Rupture cannons are the only high-strength codex weapon that can reasonably stay out of charge range. Then of course, anything that does try to melee a Knight just melts. They even beat Scythed Hierodules 1vs1, and that's a melee-focused GC costing 1.5 times the points. I guess the only option is to out-shoot it by spending a crapload of points on a Barbed Hierodule or Harridan.

Of course this may have more to do with how bad Tyranids fare in Escalation/Apoc...

Kanluwen wrote:

FW models have the "Terror" and "Wallet Strike(Critical)" special rules.

Dude. Preferred Enemy (wallet).

Hierodules are absolutely terrible for their pts though, so not much worth in comparing stuff against it

**Leggy**

JWBS wrote:
It's ok, it'll come down to price for me. I prefer The Hoff knight pattern and since I have stuff to make a couple that I'll probably never get to i can't imagine I'll be buying many of these (none if they're £60+ after net discount)

I converted a few Hoff-esque Knights myself. While I that we have rules now, I'm not looking forward to scratchbuilding giant chainswords onto them.

EDIT: Actually, mine were more Hortwerth Pattern. Getting my modellers confused here :s

**Red Corsair**

azreal13 wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
azreal13 wrote:
The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.

I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.
You'd have to be lucky to kill 10 unless I'm missing something, maybe I am as I'm not all that familiar with escalation (kill 1 or 2 with the melee attacks and then kill a handful with stomp).

Up to 3 blast markers, which can be placed within three inches of one another, which inflict auto hits on everything they cover on a 2+, against a unit that will be obliged to pile in and cluster up?

It will hurt. Certainly sufficiently to force a combat result with a fairly hefty negative modifier.

Ah, seriously

Piling in 10 In6 models won't cause you to pile up and in fact will allow you to skirt the things base, since I assume it can't stomp itself will get you one guy maybe 2 depending on wording under those templates. Hardly devastating to 12 point models. Even worse if stomp doesn't negate their dodge. Since you don't want to kill it in your own turn, killing it in theirs is all the better.

**kronk**

azreal13 wrote:

My black Templars are getting a new toy!

It will probably suck! But it's shiny!

**Azreal13**

Red Corsair wrote:
azreal13 wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
azreal13 wrote:
The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.

I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.
You'd have to be lucky to kill 10 unless I'm missing something, maybe I am as I'm not all that familiar with escalation (kill 1 or 2 with the melee attacks and then kill a handful with stomp).

Up to 3 blast markers, which can be placed within three inches of one another, which inflict auto hits on everything they cover on a 2+, against a unit that will be obliged to pile in and cluster up?

It will hurt. Certainly sufficiently to force a combat result with a fairly hefty negative modifier.

Ah, seriously

Piling in 10 In6 models won't cause you to pile up and in fact will allow you to skirt the things base, since I assume it can't stomp itself will get you one guy maybe 2 depending on wording under those templates. Hardly devastating to 12 point models. Even worse if stomp doesn't negate their dodge. Since you don't want to kill it in your own turn, killing it in theirs is all the better.

Aren't you obliged to move into base to base contact or as close as possible by charges and subsequent pile in by the most direct route possible?

I'm not certain, but I don't think you get to just use it to put the models where you want, so no skirting around anything.

**JWBS**

Leggy wrote:
JWBS wrote:
It's ok, it'll come down to price for me. I prefer The Hoff knight pattern and since I have stuff to make a couple that I'll probably never get to i can't imagine I'll be buying many of these (none if they're £60+ after net discount)

I converted a few Hoff-esque Knights myself. While I that we have rules now, I'm not looking forward to scratchbuilding giant chainswords onto them.

EDIT: Actually, mine were more Hortwerth Pattern. Getting my modellers confused here :s

This is the Hoff one, I like the back jointed legs and utilitarian look of it (less curvy than these new ones)

**Mr Morden**

Mr.Omega wrote:
By the logic of the Knight rules Riptides should be priced closer to 300 points. Little difference in durability, slight downgrade in regards to the Thermal Cannon with the charged IA, and all you really lose after that is a slightly better invuln and the CC ability.

But, for little more they have Interceptor or a better invuln (FNP essentially makes their 5++ re-rollable) and the ability to JSJ, ignore night fighting, double range on the big gun by default.

well we all know Riptides are undercosted - the only reasoin these can compete is the Superheavy rules makes them better walkers than normal ones.

Waiting with baited breath for the actual relase of these

**AllSeeingSkink**

xttz wrote:
yakface wrote:

These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.

But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation.

I'm honestly struggling to work out how Nid players can deal with more than one of them. Their rear armour is still decent, and can be boosted with the movable invuln save making them hard to glance down. Rupture cannons are the only high-strength codex weapon that can reasonably stay out of charge range. Then of course, anything that does try to melee a Knight just melts. They even beat Scythed Hierodules 1vs1, and that's a melee-focused GC costing 1.5 times the points. I guess the only option is to out-shoot it by spending a crapload of points on a Barbed Hierodule or Harridan.

Of course this may have more to do with how bad Tyranids fare in Escalation/Apoc...

Kanluwen wrote:

FW models have the "Terror" and "Wallet Strike(Critical)" special rules.

Dude. Preferred Enemy (wallet).

Yeah, it is a tough one for nids. Normally tanks can be dealt with via their sweet juicy rear armour and smaller walkers aren't nearly as imposing.

Maybe just feed it 15 termagaunts each turn so it can't do anything worth while for the game.

If you can get 3 melee equipped Carnifexes to charge it, that would probably be the end of it, at the expense of 1 or 2 carni's, so maybe tie it up with some gargoyle fodder and then setup a Carni brood to charge it.

It would be difficult if you didn't tailor your list though, I don't think I'd ever take 3 CC Carni's unless it was quite a large game.

**Red Corsair**

@Azreal
Firstly their is the fleet unit assault move, then they move at I6 up to 3" we won't even bother with the 3" post combat as it won't ever come up. They can move how they choose in order to get into BtB. It's not hard at all to wrap that thing with wyches. Wyches still utterly rape expensive walkers.

Not saying Knights are bad, they are actually good IMO, just clarifying this match up is definitely not in the knights favor, especially when considering cost.

Edit: Now if they can swap those crappy HS for HF then they got much better IMO.

**xxvaderxx**

Dont fool yourselves, this guy will be auto include in all marines armies. Not because of its external balance against riptides and Knights, but because of its internal balance against the rest of the marine codexes and the meta. For marines this guy is very cheap for what it does which frees up points to get more essentially overcosted core troops and other shenaningans given the amount of ap 3 or better flying around. This guy takes about 36 misile hits to bring down, and it does pose a big threat if no dealt with (unlike the rest of the marine codex), it will work as a bullet magnet alloing the rest of you army to actually make use of that over costed 3+ save

**First0f0ne**

xxvaderxx wrote:
while the rules are likelly auto include garbage, the size makes things easy as i will be using a paper cut out and be done with it, its so bing there is no need for presice modeling, yes you can almos alwayssee it and yes sometimes i get cover. No point in buying the model

If you and I were buddys I'd let you do that once to try them out, but after that I'd tell you to get that paper trash off the table.

**Platuan4th**

Bonde wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Zweischneid wrote:
It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.

OMG Zwei you're a genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before???

And why ban FW?

Ban?

You don't ban.

But if the problems Yak mention worry you, it's an obvious solution you could mutually agree on.

Because no GW "main" kit has a ranged D weapon.

That is not true, the Shadowsword tank does.

Try reading my post again, this time with some sarcasm injected in it. Maybe out loud, rolling your eyes while you do it.