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Are sonic blasters still worth the points. Knew an EC guy back in the day who also swapped out his bolters for sonic blasters always. Two blastmasters each squad of 8 rest with sonic blasters.

Thanks for answering theses questions and giving me ideas guys

Nope sonic boasters are definitely not worth it anymore.

Ranged weapons with the ignores cover special rule are virtually always worth taking, and sonic blasters are no exception. It's the difference between that cheap scoring unit going to ground behind an aegis for a 2+ save, and that unit getting blown away and your opponent having to come up with a new way to hold that objective.

And that's just a specific strategic example. It also just does more damage. Anything that's only Sv5+ or worse is very likely going to be relying on cover saves to stay alive, and even things with better armor saves, you're still likely advantaged. After all, if a model has a 3+ cover save and a 4+ armor save, the sonic blasters are still reducing a 3+ to a 4+. That and it makes them better against AV10 vehicles that were making use of jink.

The only downside is that they are a bit pricey. Were I to run noise marines, I think I'd load up, say, half the squad with them, just to leave a few unupgraded bullet-catchers.

 Ailaros wrote:
Ranged weapons with the ignores cover special rule are virtually always worth taking, and sonic blasters are no exception. It's the difference between that cheap scoring unit going to ground behind an aegis for a 2+ save, and that unit getting blown away and your opponent having to come up with a new way to hold that objective.

And that's just a specific strategic example. It also just does more damage. Anything that's only Sv5+ or worse is very likely going to be relying on cover saves to stay alive, and even things with better armor saves, you're still likely advantaged. After all, if a model has a 3+ cover save and a 4+ armor save, the sonic blasters are still reducing a 3+ to a 4+. That and it makes them better against AV10 vehicles that were making use of jink.

The only downside is that they are a bit pricey. Were I to run noise marines, I think I'd load up, say, half the squad with them, just to leave a few unupgraded bullet-catchers.

I don't think theres an optimised loadout as that will totally depend on your planned use for them.

SO things that you have to remember.

-Deamons are a separate Army from CSM since 4Th Ed, wich suck imo.

-You have acces to a few new toys and new rules.
-You have to learn to deal with Champion of Chaos rule and Challenges/Duels, YOU WILL SEE THOSE FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, no kidding.
-As much that it pains me to say it, blast weaponry are good.
-if you take Sorcerors or Deamon Princes , you will see that the Psy powers mecanics has changed.
-Things that din't change much is that you will be Murderaped by tau's superior and ridiculous Firepower and by those Stupid Eldars, just like in 3rd.
-Drakes, Spawns and Bikes, are the new cool units from the Codex.
-Big Change from 3Rd Ed is that Dreads sucks now, meanly because of the Hull points system, and also because the limits of the actual dex options accesible to the dreads, and also because has a EC you can't change his weapons to Sound weaponry anymore.
-BIG SUCKING FREAKIN CRAP OF A SON change from 3Rd Ed dex, NO MORE LEGIONS RULES, yup... while Marines gets Chapter Traits, Combat Tactics and ATSKNF for a point per models...

I am reading over the 6th rulebook, a ton has changed. It seems that Vehicle heavy lists have some good advantages.

Plus now there are flyers.

You should check out our flier, the heldrake

Flavor is hella cheesy

 Ailaros wrote:
Ranged weapons with the ignores cover special rule are virtually always worth taking, and sonic blasters are no exception. It's the difference between that cheap scoring unit going to ground behind an aegis for a 2+ save, and that unit getting blown away and your opponent having to come up with a new way to hold that objective.

And that's just a specific strategic example. It also just does more damage. Anything that's only Sv5+ or worse is very likely going to be relying on cover saves to stay alive, and even things with better armor saves, you're still likely advantaged. After all, if a model has a 3+ cover save and a 4+ armor save, the sonic blasters are still reducing a 3+ to a 4+. That and it makes them better against AV10 vehicles that were making use of jink.

The only downside is that they are a bit pricey. Were I to run noise marines, I think I'd load up, say, half the squad with them, just to leave a few unupgraded bullet-catchers.

I can't think of any situation where I need to invest points to make a 20 point MEQ to be able to deal with 5+ saves at less than 24".

 herpguy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Ranged weapons with the ignores cover special rule are virtually always worth taking, and sonic blasters are no exception. It's the difference between that cheap scoring unit going to ground behind an aegis for a 2+ save, and that unit getting blown away and your opponent having to come up with a new way to hold that objective.

And that's just a specific strategic example. It also just does more damage. Anything that's only Sv5+ or worse is very likely going to be relying on cover saves to stay alive, and even things with better armor saves, you're still likely advantaged. After all, if a model has a 3+ cover save and a 4+ armor save, the sonic blasters are still reducing a 3+ to a 4+. That and it makes them better against AV10 vehicles that were making use of jink.

The only downside is that they are a bit pricey. Were I to run noise marines, I think I'd load up, say, half the squad with them, just to leave a few unupgraded bullet-catchers.

I can't think of any situation where I need to invest points to make a 20 point MEQ to be able to deal with 5+ saves at less than 24".

How about a unit with 5+ saves and a 4+ or better cover save?

First of all I can't think of such a unit that would be a close range threat. Anyways if such a unit is in close proximity to you they will either:
-Be no CC threat
-Be mincemeat for the rest of your army anyway.

Sonic blasters struggle to be useful on the actual tabletop, I find, because it means the unit has to remain stationary to get the most out of it. That directly contradicts the nature of Ignores Cover weapons, which are supposed to be things you advance on the enemy with. They are fantastic if and only if you manage to get Endurance for the relentless USR it confers. It effectively turns them into 24" 3 shot boltguns where you get to ignore cover all day every day.

Unfortunately psychic powers are extremely volatile these days in you can't plan what you bring anymore.

Exactly. It's so situational I can't ever see it being worth it.
If you want a unit charging up the field noise marines are definitely not going to fit the bill. 20+ point MEQs running up the field = a loss. Plus, ignores cover on AP5 seems kinda moot because if you are within 24" of your opponents pathfinders or guardsmen they are either doing something terribly wrong or you just threw away your noise marines by advancing them.
An extra 3 points for a potential extra bolter shot is pretty wasteful.

Blastmasters are what make noise marines good, and it seems MSU squads with them are probably the best.

Wait, what silliness is this? Do your opponents never use cover saves?

Offensive or defensive, if your opponent is getting cover, then the sonic weapons ignores that cover. It would only make a difference if your opponents refused to dig in on objectives, or always marched straightforward out of cover towards your stuff.

If you have opponents that bad, then yeah, don't bother taking sonic weapons ever. For opponents who know what cover is, and especially if they're forced to use it (like because stuff is Sv5+ or worse), then it just straight helps.

I still don't get which 5+ save enemies could possibly be giving you problems.

Anything going to ground on an objective. Anything whose transport is destroyed, so the models inside give cover. AV10 vehicles that rely on jink. Anything with long-range weapons (lootas, guard HWSs, etc.). Ork boyz under a KFF. Jetbikes with conceal for a 2+ cover save. Harkerstars. Harlequins. There's lots of stuff that can be annoying that relies on cover saves.

Sonic blasters make you better against much of the DE, ork, and guard codices straight away, and that's before you consider henchmen-focused GK, shrouded tyranid or a bunch of other stuff.

Do you NEED sonic weapons to handle these targets? Of course not, but that's like saying you don't NEED meltaguns if your army has access to lascannons.

Hoards of Orkz...

Nids Hoards of Gaunts...

IG 60 Man squads with 120 las guns shots per shooting phase...

I dunno pick one.

Sure, they will help against those. However, if your list has any problems at all dealing with any of those to begin with than you have bigger problems.

The better you are against these targets, the fewer points you need to spend on it over all.

In any case, that's like saying you don't need meltaguns if your army has access to lascannons.

 herpguy wrote:
Sure, they will help against those. However, if your list has any problems at all dealing with any of those to begin with than you have bigger problems.

Wait what? You need hoard control no matter what. You cant just be like pfffff screw hoards I don't need to prepare for them.

That's what flame weapons are for, not marginally better bolters.

Template weapons? How are you even getting them into range, much less getting any serious number of hits against displaced opponents? Ignores-cover bolters are far better than flamers.

And "marginally better"? Against opponents in 4+ cover, they're twice as good.

I would hope that dropping 3 points per model on sonic weapons would be better than a 5 point flamer.

I guess it's all up to meta but I have never had problems killing any 5+ or 4+ save armies. Sure necrons have 4+ saves but they certainly do not rely on them. Wasting points on something so minimally better just seems not worth it. Unless they are suddenly showing as competitive I stand by the fact that they are crap. If somebody wants to prove me wrong by showing they can win even a local tournament with sonic weapons then go ahead. You just can't throw all the bells and whistles on something and expect it to be good (except in the case of Greater Daemons).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271966-making-noise-marines-scream/

This is a great thread where a player goes through a very long and painstaking process of playtesting noise marines. He very soon came to the realization that sonic weapons just don't perform on the tabletop at all.

My EC list has 24 noise marines in it. Only 6 of them have sonic blasters. 10 of them have no sonic weapons of any sort and the last of the group have blastmasters or doomsirens.

The six with the sonic blasters hang back on one of my rear objective and blast away at anything that gets close. Its great for area denial. These guys aren't moving anyway, so I might as well be able to really unleash against anything that thinks of getting close. The ignores cover isn't really as important for these guys as 3 shots out to 24" each.

Even if you take theese guyz in a rhino, sonic blasters are still much more damaging than bolters.
Anywayz, i don't see the point of going noizemarines and not using the stuff they can bring. Cause if u're planning on riding a rhino and getting them in 12' with just bolters...why not use generic marines that can get 3 plazmas/meltas including a combi-weapon boasting much better damage output for the same price.
Thus, imo, if you use noizemarines - take sonic blasters. They're allready pretty expensive, but at least they're bringing an extra useful tool - nice ignore-cover dakka with higher rof than regular bolters.

How do you figure?

Disembarking from the rhino would only allow a sonic blaster to shoot 12" and get two shots. As per the Salvo rules. A bolter marine will get out of the rhino and shoot two shots at 12" as per the rapid fire rules.

So on the turn they get out (or just move for that matter) they are exactly the same thing. It would only be on subsequent turns where the noise marines didn't move that the sonic blaster wins out over the bolter.

Salvo was the worst possible thing that could have happened to the sonic blaster. They were so much better being assault2/heavy 3 weapons in all of the past codexs. This is why I I'd recommend only putting them on guys who are not going to move all game long.

 Jayden63 wrote:
How do you figure?

Disembarking from the rhino would only allow a sonic blaster to shoot 12" and get two shots. As per the Salvo rules. A bolter marine will get out of the rhino and shoot two shots at 12" as per the rapid fire rules.

So on the turn they get out (or just move for that matter) they are exactly the same thing. It would only be on subsequent turns where the noise marines didn't move that the sonic blaster wins out over the bolter.

Salvo was the worst possible thing that could have happened to the sonic blaster. They were so much better being assault2/heavy 3 weapons in all of the past codexs. This is why I I'd recommend only putting them on guys who are not going to move all game long.

IIRC salvo is still 24' - not halved. Also, it's hard to make it 12' close with 200+ pts sitting in a 11-11-10 rhino without hiding behind a landraider or heavy-blos map. While regular marines at least boast plazma and melta remaining a bit cheaper.

Well unfortunately you are remembering wrong. Salvo weapon ranges are halved if moving as per the rulebook pg. 52.

Which makes me a sad panda, but I've learned to live with it.

I think you can save points on sonic blasters if you have 2 or more Heldrakes. 2-3 Heldrakes will give you ample cover hugging infantry killing power. Use those points instead to spam Blastmasters. If you aren't taking Heldrakes or only using 1 then go for it.

Taking daemon allies is very strong. A KoS (make him a lvl 3 psyker) and a Daemonettes blob (these can kill anything with a toughness value and some light vehicles) deepstriking into your enemy's deployment while you pound them with your ranged EC compliments very nicely. Takes pressure off the gunline of having the enemy rush you and you can respond to deepstrike threats with some of your own.

For heavvy support, I would use vindicators. Then the enemy has no place that is really safe.

Slaanesh is generally a good mark. I think strong builds can be themed around it. Go for it.

I've had a lot of success running two squads of 10 Noisemarines with 2 blastmasters each, then an additional squad of 5 with 1 blastmaster. Five st8 ap3 ignores cover blast templates is enough to mess up most army's plans. Especially Ravenwing armies.

The Lord then outflanks on a steed with a burning brand and with either 35 cultists with 3 flamers, or with 5 or 6 combi-plas terminators.

I think sonic blasters are a waste of time, if you stick them with a squad of blastmasters they will rarely get to fire. Now if they was a way of reliably give them relentless it might be a different story.