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Ever since the GW stock price dropped substantially a few weeks ago, it seems there has been nearly non-stop GW bashing on the net. Not that there was much love before that, but ever since the middle of January, it seems like the floodgates have opened- GW is awful their prices are awful, their interaction with their customers is awful, their models are awful, their rules are awful, etc. GW was the whipping boy.

Until-- maybe a few hours ago? 40K radio posts possibly leaked photos of the new Imperial Knight model and rules, as well as possible pictures of a Legion of the Damned codex. And now all the posts on 40k's page (and on a few forums) are WANT/I'M GOING TO BE SO POOR/TAKE My MONEY/etc.

Now obviously, there is a *lot* of hyperbole on the net, and we all need to take everyone's extreme comments with a side of salt- and the more extreme, the more salt needed. But this looks almost like an abusive relationship (with all due respect for people who actually experience/have experienced abusive relationships) GW is awful to us/I'm leaving and never coming back/ok look how wonderful GW is/I can't wait to buy product X!

Maybe this is just the internet and the extremes we see are a product of the type of medium this is. And maybe the people making the different comments are two completely different groups. Maybe there is no overlap between the two, and maybe the group that loves this stuff has been quite online for the past month.

But man on man, reading forums makes me want to go to the chiropractor to get my whiplashed neck adjusted.

DD

Its not all the internet. My friends and I have stopped buying anything except publications from GW now and use 3rd party models for everything, we are richer and have more variety as a result.

A lot of older people in our area have moved on from GW completely. But the kids still love it. Every area is different though, the internet contains many areas. So you end up with many opinions.

Then there are people who live in their office chairs and are just a pin about it...

Its easy to exhaggerate on the internet so dont take any of it seriously

I suppose the differences are, people who are malcontent are more likely to voice it when nothing else is going on, and people who are positive and happy will voice their opinions of cool things when those come along while remaining content to do whatever else it is they do to sustain themselves throughout the day.

The last thing of GW I bought was the 6th edition rule book. The last model probably a year before that.

The new LOTD and imperial Knights will not change that. The material product is just not worth the money I'm being asked to pay and hasn't been for a long time.

What are the chances that the people that are whining are doing all the whining and the people that are cheering are doing all the cheering?

In any case though, GW as a company is very hard to defend - their business practices are very consumer-unfriendly. However, their product is (generally) awesome and is the only reason we stick around at all.

I bought some plastic Eldar models last spring/summer to use with 4th edition..........that's about the most recent.

It's not really that complicated. A lot of people like the products that GW produces, but hate GW's business practices (legal abuse, sacrificing long-term success for short-term profits, etc). These people will praise new releases that they like, and post criticism of GW as a business when the context is business news like stock prices.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not really that complicated. A lot of people like the products that GW produces, but hate GW's business practices (legal abuse, sacrificing long-term success for short-term profits, etc). These people will praise new releases that they like, and post criticism of GW as a business when the context is business news like stock prices.

Peregrine- I get that, and I agree. And I agree with previous comments about yeah, this is the internet, so don't take it so seriously. But I'm also surprised by the resounding lack of integrated comments- GW is a b*tthole company, but they make cool stuff/thier stuff my be cool, but I can't get over how awful they are, etc. It seems its generally feast of famine. I'm pretty new to the game, and it does seem to me that GW does a really crappy job of handling their customer base. And I suspect, their are losing real money because of it. But I also suspect they are making enough money, in part from the buzz they get when the release cool new stuff, to not care very much. Who knows. Maybe they do care, and we'll see a change in how they treat their customers in the next few months. I like the new White Dwarf set up. On the other hand, it does seem like they have been really nasty to their customers for a while, and why should I realistically expect that to change?

DD

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not really that complicated. A lot of people like the products that GW produces, but hate GW's business practices (legal abuse, sacrificing long-term success for short-term profits, etc). These people will praise new releases that they like, and post criticism of GW as a business when the context is business news like stock prices.

Pretty much this. Look at me - I like the figures and the 40k background, but I refuse to deal with how GW has become over the last few years. Constant price-gouging,everything become soulless plastic, shoddy rules, ignoring balance and trying to push this "forge the narrative" malarky. No thanks. I'll fondly remember the memories I have of the old game and reminisce while looking through my old White Dwarfs, and forget about the bastardization that it's become.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not really that complicated. A lot of people like the products that GW produces, but hate GW's business practices (legal abuse, sacrificing long-term success for short-term profits, etc). These people will praise new releases that they like, and post criticism of GW as a business when the context is business news like stock prices.

Well said.

I would take it a little further. No one likes the prices GW charges, yet they pay them. Have never really understood why this is the case.

Ehh yeah it costs a little more than i like but i still enjoy the games. So all the extra costs do is slow down my army being "finished"

It doesn't help that anything remotely negative is referred to as 'hating' or 'whining'.

I dislike much of what GW does, but they still make some great models, and the Knight does look very nice.

Not a GW apologist at all but I've been a fan of pretty much everything they've brought out since and including 6th edition. New Sisters dex was pretty good [and ensured we weren't squatted], and love the Inquisition codex, Escalation and Stronghold Assault. Now very excited about the Knight Titans. Love that GW is bringing a lot of the old EPIC sculpts to life.

All of the complaining seems a bit silly to me too. For example, Knight Titans have already been declared OP, too expensive money wise, and not worth their points gamewise, and they haven't even come out yet.

Only thing that has annoyed me is the new White Dwarf/Visions format [Visions is a massive pile of poop and not paying for a weekly WD], but this has just forced me to stop buying a magazine that I knew I shouldn't bother to buy anyway.

So yeah, I reckon cut GW a break,

i have to admit that i don't understand a lot of people on this forum. if i understand their posts correctly, they don't like GW (which is fine), don't buy GW models (also allowed), and don't play GW games anymore (also acceptable). but to me it seems that the only reason to hang around on an internet forum based around WH40K is if you either play the game or paint the models. or both. being proud of not having bought a GW miniature since 2004 and not playing their games is fine, so why are you hanging around here? are you hanging around just to tell us how gak and stupid our hobby is now? if it's been over a decade since you last actually enjoyed the whole wh40k thing you need a new hobby, sorry things have changed and you don't like it but life's like that sometimes. you'd be much happier finding a new wargame than spending your days moaning about GW online. we;ve all met that guy whose girlfriend dumped him 5 years back and he's still heartbroken now and we all think that someone still crying over their lost love 5 years later is weird and creepy, not devoted and loyal.

i don't really play the games, so i'll let those that do discuss whether 6th ed is any good or not. i'm just a painter who likes the fluff, so for me the issues are a) are the models any good; and b) can i afford them.

and the models are ace. they're better now than they were when i was a kid painting space wolves and orks. but fecking hell are they expensive! GW would get more of my money by making the hobby cheaper!

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not really that complicated. A lot of people like the products that GW produces, but hate GW's business practices (legal abuse, sacrificing long-term success for short-term profits, etc). These people will praise new releases that they like, and post criticism of GW as a business when the context is business news like stock prices.

Well said.

I would take it a little further. No one likes the prices GW charges, yet they pay them. Have never really understood why this is the case.

I think a lot of people complain about the sticker price then go get it for 20% off at their FLGS/online.

Having said that I am usually quite annoyed to see people in my area that I know hate finecast going and buying those goofy greater demons that need serious pinning to keep upright in our climate. That's pruely a powergamer thing though, if it's a good unit they have to have it.

I dislike alot about Gw, their hatred of Independents, pumping out releases w/o thinking. But I love the models and the game so I will play what I want. No I wont play WM/H I dont like it. Dropzone looks cool but no one wants to play it. I have had my fill of Star Wars games for a bit. I may play the MLP:CCG though

 daddyorchips wrote:
i have to admit that i don't understand a lot of people on this forum. if i understand their posts correctly, they don't like GW (which is fine), don't buy GW models (also allowed), and don't play GW games anymore (also acceptable). but to me it seems that the only reason to hang around on an internet forum based around WH40K is if you either play the game or paint the models. or both. being proud of not having bought a GW miniature since 2004 and not playing their games is fine, so why are you hanging around here? are you hanging around just to tell us how gak and stupid our hobby is now? if it's been over a decade since you last actually enjoyed the whole wh40k thing you need a new hobby, sorry things have changed and you don't like it but life's like that sometimes. you'd be much happier finding a new wargame than spending your days moaning about GW online. we;ve all met that guy whose girlfriend dumped him 5 years back and he's still heartbroken now and we all think that someone still crying over their lost love 5 years later is weird and creepy, not devoted and loyal.

i don't really play the games, so i'll let those that do discuss whether 6th ed is any good or not. i'm just a painter who likes the fluff, so for me the issues are a) are the models any good; and b) can i afford them.

and the models are ace. they're better now than they were when i was a kid painting space wolves and orks. but fecking hell are they expensive! GW would get more of my money by making the hobby cheaper!

You've got a fairly significant dissonance happening in this post.

Dakka is not a 40K forum, it is a wargaming forum. 40K and GW are talked about a lot because they are very significant parts of the hobby, not because they are what this hobby is about. If someone plays Infinity, Warmachine, Flames Of War or whatever, then they have a reason to be here, hell, I'm pretty sure some posters rarely leave the Off Topic board.

I will also repeat something else I've said before in regard to the point you're making - not being affected by something does not preclude you from being outraged by it. There would be far fewer charities and aid operations in the world if that was the case.

EDIT
Oh, and I'd say that while they are sill capable of making great models (new Knight being a case in point) I'd actually contend that while the quality of the models in terms of how they go together and their sophistication is high, the ratio of great models to really poor ones is worse than pretty much any time in their history.

In regards to the OP, I know exactly where I stand with GW, if they do some thing good I praise it, if they do something bad I criticise it, if they release something I deem worth my money that I want, I buy it, otherwise I don't. If one was to assume from my posts that I hate GW and everything they make, it says more about GW's recent track record in my eyes than it does about me. (I'm all giddy over the Knight BTW)

Maybe the problem is not about the product`s of GW, maybe is the players. I can see this with my friends, we play about ten, twelve maybe more tears, our colections are enormous and we want new things with a reasonable price.
Ten years ago, you cannot buy many miniatures out of GW, now you have several companies available and an unlimited gamma of figures, only for quote some, Mantic, Chronoscope, Anvil Miniatures, TTGG and many more. Maybe, the 90% of this companis offer his product to a price 30%, 40% less than GW and with a very good quality (real good quality).

Why pay more for 16 skeleton`s in GW if you can pay less for 20 skeleton`s from mantic???.

GW today maybe is lost in a battle of companis and your only cards are Fantasy and 40K, no more. Where are, mordheim, inquisitor, bloodbowl, gothic, epic and all the specilist games???. In the garbage of GW. The real crime of GW is think who the player wants the same thing over and over again. When appear the new last race for fantasy?, when appear the new last race for 40K?. There no new work really... forge world has a enormous gamma of miniatures from horus era, the death korps of krig are beautifull and have a strong history, about two or three years began with warhammer forge and has a good gamma of figurines with his own rules, and they don`t have fear to take a risk. They take a miniature and make the next step... who desire the player?, new armies, new rules, new frontiers to explore, and all the companies who compite with GW think the same.

Obiusly, GW has a very large group of follower´s, but this players want more variaty, not the same old super marine... maybe a new class, a new danger, a new form fo play.

Is my opinion... and sorry for my english... I need more practice.

well regarding new armies, the problem is that there are, proably, too MANY armies in 40k. we've a number of armies that are still using their 4th edition codex, it's getting hard to publish codexes out in a reasonable time period now. this is problematic, heck it means it'd be all but impossiable for GW to do such a drastic rewrite of the rules a new codex is essential to be able to use an army. that said GW is trying to give us new things with the dataslates and "micro codexes" you can get that if one of those catches on like wildfire and is hugely sucessful, GW'll give strong consideration to expanding it to a full codex in the next edition.

BrianDavion wrote:
well regarding new armies, the problem is that there are, proably, too MANY armies in 40k. we've a number of armies that are still using their 4th edition codex, it's getting hard to publish codexes out in a reasonable time period now. this is problematic, heck it means it'd be all but impossiable for GW to do such a drastic rewrite of the rules a new codex is essential to be able to use an army. that said GW is trying to give us new things with the dataslates and "micro codexes" you can get that if one of those catches on like wildfire and is hugely sucessful, GW'll give strong consideration to expanding it to a full codex in the next edition.

The problem isn't too many armies it's GWs method of updating them. I believe they are the only company in the market at the moment going with the 'redo an entire army then forget about it and redo another entire army' release schedule. They have deviated a little from it in the recent past, the ork and SM flyer, the Daemon cavalry, the upcoming Knight I guess, but everyone else is going with a living rulebook instead of editions when it comes to their army lists, they keep the rules for everything up to date and change them if absolutely necessary while releasing the odd unit here and there for everyone.

GW are updating codexes much faster in 6th edition than they did in 4th and 5th.

The quality of the codexes is arguably lower.

The dataslates are content that arguably ought to be included in their codex -- e.g. three for the new Tyranid book -- and are being published separately in order to make more money.

Even updating them faster I still think the one army at a time method is flawed. This month's dwarf releases gave them a single new unit and a variation on and old one that technically counts as a new unit.

Eight years, and they get 1.5 new units. Their rules got a good overhaul from the sounds of it but there is no reason those rules couldn't have come out bit by bit over the last 8 yeas so the army could be only a step behind all that time instead of ten behind.

There is no reason other than GWs fear of change that they could not introduce a new faction. Slowly at first, a unit or two as allied dataslates, then a couple more, then a couple more units as an allied codex, then a few more units and that's a whole codex. It really wouldn't be that big a strain on their release schedule.

That would break the whole concept of 'codices' though, unless they're going to start charging a subscription fee for monthly minidex releases, which creates a nightmare of book-keeping and what have you.

Models are hard enough to cart around as it is, without having to carry an entire magazine collection with you of rules while you wait for the summative codex.

Yes, yes it does break the idea of Codices. It's an outdated concept and not worth keeping around as a necessity imo. We already drag too much to a game with the core rulebook, a hardcover codex, a supplement and an allied book. Instead I'd much rather a small stack of stat cards the come with the models or a free, online list builder similar to Army Builder but official with actual books as an optional extra that is purely for fluff and pictures that doesn't need to be dragged to the table, similar to Spartan Games, PP and CB.

Oh, so you just want free stuff instead of having to pay for it.

lol.

Place me in the category of those whom dont care about GW`s buisnins mindset, I enjoy the hobby and money will NEVER be an issue for me so I gladly pay what the models cost.

When there is something positive to post about, people post more positive things. When there is not, positive posts drop off and you hear the background discontent loud and clear.

Personally in the last 3-4 years ive not bought anything from gw other than a couple of codexes and a mini rule book from ebay. Ive sold off the majority of my armies and bought into other games systems. All my hobby money now goes to other companies and I am reasonably vocal about turning new players onto other games systems and away from gw. I have no intention of ever buying from gw again until such timr as they can demonstrate they have changed their spots.

People who complain are generally still interested and invested on some level, and thus open to buying more "good" (however you define that personally) stuff from GW.

People that GW genuinely "lost" as customers don't bother complaining.


That, in a nutshell, is how it goes.

A person hanging ... say ... around the Malifaux-forums complaining about Malifaux miniatures/rules/whatever and telling everyone how ... say .... Warmachine is better/cheaper/more innovative/etc..., is still a "Malifaux-customer" at the end of the day, trying to improve Malifaux (in his vision of a perfect Malifaux).

If said person would have genuinely moved away from Malifaux and towards Warmachine as a customer, he (or she) would not be bothering with the Malifaux forums, but instead be in the Warmachine forums.

Furyou Miko wrote:Oh, so you just want free stuff instead of having to pay for it.

lol.

What I want is the current, stagnating, market leader to offer the same kind of value as their competition. I am by no means cheap and I generally end up buying all those optional books anyway because I enjoy collecting them, but GW is still operating as if it's the 90s and their competition isn't. They want me to pay for their rules 3 times over, everyone else wants me to take their rules for free or else just get the core book and nothing else and then trust that I'll enjoy the game enough to buy more models.

That's probably enough about that though, it's getting quite off topic. Actually it might be a good idea for a thread over in Discussions..

Zweischneid wrote:People who complain are generally still interested and invested on some level, and thus open to buying more "good" (however you define that personally) stuff from GW.

People that GW genuinely "lost" as customers don't bother complaining.

That's a pretty good explanation there. People complain because they don't like the direction the company are going, but at the end of the day they are still along for the ride and if they see GW do something they like they will praise them for that.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's not really that complicated. A lot of people like the products that GW produces, but hate GW's business practices (legal abuse, sacrificing long-term success for short-term profits, etc). These people will praise new releases that they like, and post criticism of GW as a business when the context is business news like stock prices.

Pretty much with. With GW, I like (the majority of) the product they release, but dislike their business practices and their attitude towards the customers.