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After few games with proxy khorne berzerkers i just can't find them useful outside of smaller points games so i was hoping for something like this in the rumored chaosgod specific supplements
1. Include chainaxes standard and lower their points cost to somewhere like 17/18 ppm
Ability to replace lascannons with heavy bolters on LR and increase its carrying capacity(or simply allow them crusaders and redeemers, since chaos forces steal it from imperials, why they wouldn't take LRC or redeemer from them as well as standard land raider???)
3. models with mark of khorne get rage +1 WS(included where possible, so no WS6 on zerkers, but lord would get WS7) and +1 attack instead of rage and CA
what do you think of it and what would you suggest to improve berzerkers?

Chainaxes can remain upgrades, but they should rend, and/or have +1 strength.
2 attacks base
Ability to assault out of any transport.

For that, I'd pay their 19pt cost.

A buff on chainaxes would be nice, as really there is 0 point in taking them, especially with the point cost slapped onto them.

The old furious charge which gave +1 Iniative on the charge wouldn't go amiss.

I think with those small changes I'd probably consider then a lot more. The problems with no assaulting out of any transports is more universal, so I don't believe that shouldn't just be fixed for Khorne Berzerkers.

Play an older edition where assault matters.

Shred on chainaxes.

Try these rules for LRs
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576688.page
But chain axes should either be buffed or included in their profile, not both. We want to make them efficient not overpowered. Make them better than CSM w/ MoK

ThatSwellFella wrote:
After few games with proxy khorne berzerkers i just can't find them useful outside of smaller points games so i was hoping for something like this in the rumored chaosgod specific supplements
1. Include chainaxes standard and lower their points cost to somewhere like 17/18 ppm
Ability to replace lascannons with heavy bolters on LR and increase its carrying capacity(or simply allow them crusaders and redeemers, since chaos forces steal it from imperials, why they wouldn't take LRC or redeemer from them as well as standard land raider???)
3. models with mark of khorne get rage +1 WS(included where possible, so no WS6 on zerkers, but lord would get WS7) and +1 attack instead of rage and CA
what do you think of it and what would you suggest to improve berzerkers?

I posted this before and it got really good reviews. Check these babies out

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Khorne Berserkers 105 points

Berserker: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV3+
Champion: WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I5 A3 LD10 SV3+

Composition: 4 Berserkers and 1 Champion
Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Power Armor, Frag and Krak Grenades, Chainaxe

Special Rules: No Retreat, Feels No Pain (6+), Frenzy, Furious Charge

Frenzy: Models with this rule may Charge after Running (as may any character who joins this unit), but the unit MUST charge any unit that it can hurt within 8". This unit also has the Rage special rule and its charge bonus cannot be negated by making a disordered charge or through any enemy abilities.

No Retreat: This unit is Fearless, but if it ever loses combat, it takes X additional wounds where X is the amount it lost by.
---------------------
Options:
Take up to 15 additional Khorne Berserkers: 18 points per model
Upgrade any Chainaxe to a Khornate Chainaxe (Gain Shred): 2 points per model
Any Khorne Berserker may replace its Chainaxe with a Power Weapon: 13 points per model
Every 5th Khorne berserker may replace its bolt pistol with a plasma pistol: 10 points per model
The unit may gain the Scout special rule: 3 points per model

Replace the unit's equipment with Terminator Armor, Power Weapon, and combi bolter: 20 points per model
Any Berserker in terminator armor may replace their combi bolter with a power axe: 5 points per model
(A unit in Terminator Armor is always an elite choice and may not scout)

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

ThatSwellFella wrote:
After few games with proxy khorne berzerkers i just can't find them useful outside of smaller points games so i was hoping for something like this in the rumored chaosgod specific supplements
1. Include chainaxes standard and lower their points cost to somewhere like 17/18 ppm
Ability to replace lascannons with heavy bolters on LR and increase its carrying capacity(or simply allow them crusaders and redeemers, since chaos forces steal it from imperials, why they wouldn't take LRC or redeemer from them as well as standard land raider???)
3. models with mark of khorne get rage +1 WS(included where possible, so no WS6 on zerkers, but lord would get WS7) and +1 attack instead of rage and CA
what do you think of it and what would you suggest to improve berzerkers?

I posted this before and it got really good reviews. Check these babies out

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Khorne Berserkers 105 points

Berserker: WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 LD9 SV3+
Champion: WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I5 A3 LD10 SV3+

Composition: 4 Berserkers and 1 Champion
Wargear: Bolt Pistol, Power Armor, Frag and Krak Grenades, Chainaxe

Special Rules: No Retreat, Feels No Pain (6+), Frenzy, Furious Charge

Frenzy: Models with this rule may Charge after Running (as may any character who joins this unit), but the unit MUST charge any unit that it can hurt within 8". This unit also has the Rage special rule and its charge bonus cannot be negated by making a disordered charge or through any enemy abilities.

No Retreat: This unit is Fearless, but if it ever loses combat, it takes X additional wounds where X is the amount it lost by.
---------------------
Options:
Take up to 15 additional Khorne Berserkers: 18 points per model
Upgrade any Chainaxe to a Khornate Chainaxe (Gain Shred): 2 points per model
Any Khorne Berserker may replace its Chainaxe with a Power Weapon: 13 points per model
Every 5th Khorne berserker may replace its bolt pistol with a plasma pistol: 10 points per model
The unit may gain the Scout special rule: 3 points per model

Replace the unit's equipment with Terminator Armor, Power Weapon, and combi bolter: 20 points per model
Any Berserker in terminator armor may replace their combi bolter with a power axe: 5 points per model
(A unit in Terminator Armor is always an elite choice and may not scout)

Hmmm.

That seems quite powerful. Maybe too powerful. But hey your rules man.

The only thing I dont understand is why give them the ability to purchase scout? It doesnt really feel like this unit should be able to scout, I mean I dont recall Zerkers scouting around and stuff.

Drop the scout and give them the option to ride a modified Rhino that count has Open-topped.

Also don't forget the Icon, but with a price of 15pts, the power of the Iconc ans tay the same, still usefull to be able to reroll failed assaults and have +1 combat Resolution.

Also add a new option for the Champion, Heavy Khornate chainaxe, +10pts, gets the Shred and Rending USR.

captsabre wrote:

Hmmm.

That seems quite powerful. Maybe too powerful. But hey your rules man.

The only thing I dont understand is why give them the ability to purchase scout? It doesnt really feel like this unit should be able to scout, I mean I dont recall Zerkers scouting around and stuff.

The reason why they have Scout is for 2 reasons: 1, it helps with mobility issues. 2, it is evocative of the Forgeworld Rampagers for the World Eaters which have the Scout special ability.

Yes, the Berzerkers are powerful. However, given how terrible Assault is (and they HAVE to charge if the charge distance is 8" or less, no ifs ands or buts) there are some definite downsides, including the fact that they basically have Daemonic Instability due to No Retreat.

Slayer le boucher wrote:Drop the scout and give them the option to ride a modified Rhino that count has Open-topped.

Also don't forget the Icon, but with a price of 15pts, the power of the Iconc ans tay the same, still usefull to be able to reroll failed assaults and have +1 combat Resolution.

Also add a new option for the Champion, Heavy Khornate chainaxe, +10pts, gets the Shred and Rending USR.

Again, Scout is evocative of the World Eater Rampagers from the Horus Heresy. I do like the idea of giving them a modified Rhino that is open-topped though!
And yes, all other options are the same. I only included options that were changed from the original entry.

Finally I'd rather give the Champion an option for an Axe of Khorne from the Chaos Daemons book.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

captsabre wrote:

Hmmm.

That seems quite powerful. Maybe too powerful. But hey your rules man.

The only thing I dont understand is why give them the ability to purchase scout? It doesnt really feel like this unit should be able to scout, I mean I dont recall Zerkers scouting around and stuff.

The reason why they have Scout is for 2 reasons: 1, it helps with mobility issues. 2, it is evocative of the Forgeworld Rampagers for the World Eaters which have the Scout special ability.

Yes, the Berzerkers are powerful. However, given how terrible Assault is (and they HAVE to charge if the charge distance is 8" or less, no ifs ands or buts) there are some definite downsides, including the fact that they basically have Daemonic Instability due to No Retreat

Ah I read that as they would have to charge IF they ran as well. That makes more sense now.
I disagree on assault being that terrible, just not as powerful as it could be, but thats my thoughts and I respect yours too

Just a quick thought though, how about when the Zerkers declare a charge because they are so freaking scary and awesome on the charge they force the unit to take a moral check? On a fail the unit may not overwatch the Zerkers on that turn. On a success they may overwatch as normal.

Keep chainaxes as an upgrade. They need an extra attack base. Perhaps a cost reduction combined with the extra attack can even it out some

 captsabre wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

captsabre wrote:

Hmmm.

That seems quite powerful. Maybe too powerful. But hey your rules man.

The only thing I dont understand is why give them the ability to purchase scout? It doesnt really feel like this unit should be able to scout, I mean I dont recall Zerkers scouting around and stuff.

The reason why they have Scout is for 2 reasons: 1, it helps with mobility issues. 2, it is evocative of the Forgeworld Rampagers for the World Eaters which have the Scout special ability.

Yes, the Berzerkers are powerful. However, given how terrible Assault is (and they HAVE to charge if the charge distance is 8" or less, no ifs ands or buts) there are some definite downsides, including the fact that they basically have Daemonic Instability due to No Retreat

Ah I read that as they would have to charge IF they ran as well. That makes more sense now.
I disagree on assault being that terrible, just not as powerful as it could be, but thats my thoughts and I respect yours too

Just a quick thought though, how about when the Zerkers declare a charge because they are so freaking scary and awesome on the charge they force the unit to take a moral check? On a fail the unit may not overwatch the Zerkers on that turn. On a success they may overwatch as normal.

I think that Overwatch is fine and Zerkers with power armor and the 6+ Feels No Pain are plenty resilient to most overwatch so there's no reason to add in a rule to disallow it.

Furthermore, Assault is very often difficult to achieve for Infantry since casualties are taken from the front. Beasts and Bikes and FMC (Read: fast models) can get into Assault quickly but all other types suffer. Scouting plus allowing them to charge after they run puts my Berzerkers on much more equal footing, in addition they are slightly more resilient and less expensive so you can get more bodies. All in all, a win-win but they can be easily caught by chaff units which is their huge downside.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 captsabre wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

captsabre wrote:

Hmmm.

That seems quite powerful. Maybe too powerful. But hey your rules man.

The only thing I dont understand is why give them the ability to purchase scout? It doesnt really feel like this unit should be able to scout, I mean I dont recall Zerkers scouting around and stuff.

The reason why they have Scout is for 2 reasons: 1, it helps with mobility issues. 2, it is evocative of the Forgeworld Rampagers for the World Eaters which have the Scout special ability.

Yes, the Berzerkers are powerful. However, given how terrible Assault is (and they HAVE to charge if the charge distance is 8" or less, no ifs ands or buts) there are some definite downsides, including the fact that they basically have Daemonic Instability due to No Retreat

Ah I read that as they would have to charge IF they ran as well. That makes more sense now.
I disagree on assault being that terrible, just not as powerful as it could be, but thats my thoughts and I respect yours too

Just a quick thought though, how about when the Zerkers declare a charge because they are so freaking scary and awesome on the charge they force the unit to take a moral check? On a fail the unit may not overwatch the Zerkers on that turn. On a success they may overwatch as normal.

I think that Overwatch is fine and Zerkers with power armor and the 6+ Feels No Pain are plenty resilient to most overwatch so there's no reason to add in a rule to disallow it.

Furthermore, Assault is very often difficult to achieve for Infantry since casualties are taken from the front. Beasts and Bikes and FMC (Read: fast models) can get into Assault quickly but all other types suffer. Scouting plus allowing them to charge after they run puts my Berzerkers on much more equal footing, in addition they are slightly more resilient and less expensive so you can get more bodies. All in all, a win-win but they can be easily caught by chaff units which is their huge downside.

Yeah I see what you mean. Ive only ever played 6e, but I think a lot of the underpower of foot slogging melee units is this edition as well.

Thats probably why I prefere the faux zerkers instead

The problem is that its easier to Shoot down something then to go CC with it.

When you shoot you only need a To roll hit, that isn't modified by anything, and you don't take shots back.

In CC you compare your WS with the ennemy WS, and you take return hits.

Now this as always existed, its not news, but the changes made to how you attained CC through the various editions made it overly difficult for units reliyng only on this, while making life easier for Shooty units.

In 3Rd Ed you could move a transport full move, disembark and assault, and you could make a Sweeping advance into another ennemy unit if you had enough movement, and you counted has having assaulted this unit in the next turn and engaged in CC.

Then in 4th you could only assaukt a unit in the same turn you disembarked a transport, if the transport din't move before you did disembark the unit.

Also there was no Sweeping advance into ennemy units anymore.

5Th din't change much of it, only the Wounds allocation that became abusable and ridiculous.

6Th... oh boy..., can't disembark and assault the same turn if no open-topped or assault vehicle.

Can't assault if you use Scout, Infiltrate or simply comming from reserves.

But on the other hand you have rules like Interception, so you get shot at, even though you can't assault in this turn.

80% of the CC oriented USR can't be used when you make a Multi-assault, a lot of those also only works on the first turn of CC.

And all this while Shooting din't change in the last 3 Editions.
But there is more and more units that can Shoot a insane amount of shots, and still assault you, or negate your assaults.

So yeah the Zerkers tragic days is not only because of their new rules or options, but also because of the none existing balance between Shooting and Assaulting.

Make it "must always attempt a charge if within 12" not 8. They must have some real drawbacks for what you give them.

 koooaei wrote:
Make it "must always attempt a charge if within 12" not 8. They must have some real drawbacks for what you give them.

Why? Isn't the point to make them better than they are? With those suggested rules they'd be pretty similar to Death Company, and those aren't exactly breaking the game right now.

Add an extra attack, and call it a day. There is no need to overly complicate them. Run the numbers for Plague Marines in assaults and find the equation where Zerkers will pull ahead of PM every time. It doesn't need to be an amazing difference, just enough that I don't see a zerker squad hesitating to tangle up with a squad of PM.

As it is Plague Marines wreck Berzerkers in CC, which honestly is kinda sad.

I love Kharn and Bezerkers. But I don't want to pay for a land raider to use them effectively. They are expensive and fragile. The Butcher's nails have numbed them to everything except rage and killing. That includes numbing to pain. Why don't they have a 5+ feel no pain. Look at Kharn and other Khorne followers in the lore. They have willing taken wounds to inflict a wound on the their opponent. Any thoughts?

Serg Rush wrote:
Why don't they have a 5+ feel no pain.

If they had 5+ feel no pain it would kinda make PM pretty pointless.

Maybe an extra wound for each model?

I agree that giving them FnP moves into the area of plague marines, but then again noise marine banner gives FnP so...okay why not?

I don't think khorne berzerkers are bad tbh, not saying they are good or great, as Chaos they also have access to dirge casters on vehicles which means you have a way to negate over watch shots, which many assault armies do not have.

Chain axes str+1 ap 5

I would give them a special rule where they do not suffer penalties from a disordered charge. Out of many assault units I can see berzerkers being the ones thay give 0 f's if they are next to their squad mates when they get into melee.

Khorne sure as hell doesn't care who is gonna die, just that someone is gonna die.

How about giving them a rule where they can assault the turn they deploy from a rhino?

I don't think chain axes really need shred. You get a ball of 10 zerkers. You are going to get 40 attacks. The enemy isn't going to make all of the resulting saves. They just popped out of the rhino ideally with a dirge caster upgrade, so if they are charging withing six there is no overwatch.

I do like the idea of being able to run and assault.

One radical idea:
Whenever a model is removed as a casualty, his unit gains +1" (up to a maximum of +6") to charge range in it's next assault phase. Call this blood frenzy or something. This might fix the 'remove casualties from front' issue.

Also, I second the idea of no penalty for disordered charging. Perhaps they should even get a bonus from Khorne for drawing more bodies into the assault?

Let's take power axes as our cue for chainaxes.

Chainaxe: S +1 AP4 Unwieldy, shred

More fixes will be needed of course, but it makes sense that it should be equally slow compared to a power axe.

I like this idea: Models with Mark of Khorne treat any transport as an assault vehicle.

what you think?

Edit: oops Serge suggested it, Plus 1 to serg idea

The only way I would consider using berserkers would be if they could be put in an assault vehicle.

If you go to events that allow Forgeworld then this would be the ideal way to use them:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Stormeagle.pdf - Unsure if this is the latest rule set?

Chaos Storm Eagle
Owing to the ancient provenance of the Storm Eagle’s pattern, a few
examples of the gunship, albiet heavily and malignly modified to keep
them in service, are found in the hands of Chaos Space Marines as
well as their loyalist counterparts. Chaos Storm Eagles are identical
to the profile above except that they do not have the Power of the
Machine Spirit and cannot exchange their twin-linked heavy bolters
for a Typhoon Launcher, and have a base cost of 205 points. They
may however take the Daemonic Possession upgrade for +20 points
and may exchange their twin-linked heavy bolters for a single Reaper
Autocannon for free. (See Codex Chaos Space marines for these two
options).
A Chaos Storm Eagle is a fast attack choice for a Codex Chaos Space
marines army.


The Storm Eagle has a
transport capacity of 20 models - Yeah you do

My idea to fix the beserkers is to make the chain axes be only 1ppm instead of the 3ppm they currently are (making them free is too much), also exchange their furious charge for a extra attack on the profile but bumping them up to 20ppm (+1ppm ), this makes them want to take the Icon of Wrath and sets them clearly over CSM with MoK with them having Ws5 AND Fearless.
Then allow them to have a better way to get to close combat: fix the rhino.
Rhinos issues are: its too frail to do its job (carry troops safely) & does not have assault ramp.
So allow the rhino some special upgrades:
- 20pts - Reinforced Hull: AV 12 on front and side armor
- 10pts - Assault Ramp.

Beserkers and rhinos, Fixed.

Wait for 7 ed, maybe cc with regular troops will matter there.