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 Bolognesus wrote:


Baloney. We both know project creators of this stripe know pretty dang well what the "heavy" components (board, box, any paper/cardboard stuff) will be, and what it will weigh. Even you couldn't keep your face straight arguing that a few plastic models more or less will make a significant change in shipping weight.
And really, how the feth do you refuse to see that this ***Is*** arguing that we will "refuse to pledge" if a manufacturer can't keep his ducks in a row sufficiently to at least get this right?
Screw the whole "wheeeh, RoW backers want us to pay for their shipping" argument (and its proponents, while we're at it); we'd like reasonable shipping set. that will be more RoW than CONUS - fine. No more than reasonable, actually. But a seller not quoting shipping until backers are an entirely captive party to the agreement, having already paid for the product, creates a lack of incentive to be efficient/creative in shipping at least; it'll encourage them to shift the 'grey area' costs (packing/sorting related) into paid shipping services as much as possible, to detriment of backers, if nothing else.
Besides,it is simply a risk many backers will refuse to take.

Then don't? RoW backers want set in stone underestimated shipping because it is more than a few plastic figures, especially when they add 'expansions' which come in boxes with dimensions and are more than a plastic figure stuffed in the packing. And what if it grows to have multiple shipping? Should the KS, or the bulk of non international backers be forced to eat the cost of doubles hipping to those people? No. The only 'fair' way is everyone pays their own way... which means people in Australia pay a gak ton. If they don't like that, then so be it.

If you even think of bringing up US postage hikes - I had the idjits at CMoN ship me a ZC S2 W1 package from the US instead of the UK -- by courier. which is what they seem to always prefer. The only effect the ridiculous USPS postage hikes will have is on CONUS shipping (because if a courier/not quite as USPS-like dominant party decides to hike fees like that, they're simply out of business). I know from our shipping department what the price increase rates for UPS/DHL (and a few others besides!) intl shipping have been - and they're pretty predictable, especially compared to USPS's monster price hikes.

USPS is dumb, poorly run and stamps are going up drastically for no reason. Internaltional shipping has also had issues like UK royal mail and so on. 6 months is an eternity and the number of KS who have lost hundreds of thousands due to simple minor postage rate changes or taxes is numerous... so I don't have a problem with them not promising set-in-stone shipping and expecting people to pay what they owe.

The idea you seem to have that it would be improper for a project creator to have made provisions for certain risks/setbacks such as, oh, I dunno, cost increases in a significant cost component of the project, is frankly ludicrous.
It is entirely reasonable to "eat" that, in fact, a properly run, even reasonably sophisticated commercial party would have such risks/costs incorporated in the final price - precisely because this bullgak will put off plenty of potential buyers.

Funny to see though how the trend of you deciding who is Wrong® and being your usual self about it continues regardless of subject matter.

I don't see why you expect companies to eat the cost or 'build it in' to the price so a majority of RoW shipping is funded by domestic backers. Sure they could have launched at 120$ and that means US people are paying 20$ for shipping when it really costs 10$ish, and that subsidies RoW... but after other KS get raked over the coals for building domestic into the cost then adding RoW as a line item, they *CAN'T WIN* unless they basically eat the cost and lose money.

Of our 3 choices:
*100% built-in to the cost of the pledge (domestic subsidizes RoW, Extreme expensive international gets a free ride or company eats the costs)
*Domestic built-in, added fee for RoW (RoW people complain they are unfairly targeted and domestic gets free shipping)
*Everyone pays exactly what they owe. They provide valid estimates, shipping collected post-KS when true costs are determined.

I will take option 3 every time. Seems like the best solution... Unless you are getting 60$ of shipping paid for by other backers... Then I can see why someone would be upset.

What about option 4, estimate the ROW shipping costs on the KS page and set a cap that they will not be charged over? Leaving it as a complete blank slate means people might not be sure if they can afford pledging or not (or if so, how much, if shipping turns out to be a real bear... whenever they end up telling backers the cost ).

nkelsch wrote:
Of our 3 choices:
*100% built-in to the cost of the pledge (domestic subsidizes RoW, Extreme expensive international gets a free ride or company eats the costs)
*Domestic built-in, added fee for RoW (RoW people complain they are unfairly targeted and domestic gets free shipping)
*Everyone pays exactly what they owe. They provide valid estimates, shipping collected post-KS when true costs are determined.

I will take option 3 every time. Seems like the best solution... Unless you are getting 60$ of shipping paid for by other backers... Then I can see why someone would be upset.

Agreed and Exalted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
What about option 4, estimate the ROW shipping costs on the KS page and set a cap that they will not be charged over? Leaving it as a complete blank slate means people might not be sure if they can afford pledging or not (or if so, how much, if shipping turns out to be a real bear... whenever they end up telling backers the cost ).

What happens after that cap? The company funds it out of pocket? I don't understand why is a good solution... I mean, I appreciate when companies like Miniature Market give me free shipping, but I don't require it. Especially when I'm not paying taxes on it.

It costs money to ship things. I don't mind paying to have things delivered to my door.

You might mind more if you had no idea of the cost and then were charged $60 for something you were already committed to buy, though, right? I have not bought things due to shipping cost numerous times, it's part of the decision making process when deciding on a purchase.

 RiTides wrote:
You might mind more if you had no idea of the cost and then were charged $60 for something you were already committed to buy, though, right? I have not bought things due to shipping cost numerous times, it's part of the decision making process when deciding on a purchase.

I guess my question is why you're not okay with the estimates they've given, then?

I'd agree with you if they didn't have the estimates. But they do.....

I'm just confused about that disconnect. Not trying to be antagonistic. Promise

 cincydooley wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
You might mind more if you had no idea of the cost and then were charged $60 for something you were already committed to buy, though, right? I have not bought things due to shipping cost numerous times, it's part of the decision making process when deciding on a purchase.

I guess my question is why you're not okay with the estimates they've given, then?

I'd agree with you if they didn't have the estimates. But they do.....

Because an estimate isn't worth jack gak. If you are not willing to honour your quote (and this is a company that changed their T&C after the fact to state that they would not honour their other promises) it is not to be trusted.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
You might mind more if you had no idea of the cost and then were charged $60 for something you were already committed to buy, though, right? I have not bought things due to shipping cost numerous times, it's part of the decision making process when deciding on a purchase.

I guess my question is why you're not okay with the estimates they've given, then?

I'd agree with you if they didn't have the estimates. But they do.....

Because an estimate isn't worth jack gak. If you are not willing to honour your quote (and this is a company that changed their T&C after the fact to state that they would not honour their other promises) it is not to be trusted.

Really?

Estimates are worth a lot in TONS of industries in the United States. Landscaping. Auto Repair. Etc. Etc. Etc.....

Would you prefer they estimate HIGHER than they expect actual shipping to be in order to CYA and then keep any difference?

I guess I really don't understand the complaints....

I really like the models for this. They are different and fun. The game looks alright too.

This is board game I could see playing with my cousins or buddies so I'm probably gonna wind up going in on it.

I, for one, didn't really have any issue with the Sedition Wars Kickstarter (and even got my money I spent mostly back on just the exclusives). Everything coming out of Wrath of Kings looks excellent. So I don't really have an issue going in on this outside of funds, which should be ok.

 cincydooley wrote:


Really?

Estimates are worth a lot in TONS of industries in the United States. Landscaping. Auto Repair. Etc. Etc. Etc.....

Would you prefer they estimate HIGHER than they expect actual shipping to be in order to CYA and then keep any difference?

I guess I really don't understand the complaints....

I think he means 'Estimates from CMoN'... Which is valid if someone has an issue with how they run their KS... which goes back to 'don't pledge'.

I think overcharging the majority to cover the minority or charging everyone the cost for the majority and eating the minority are both bad solutions. I am more willing to back if everyone pays their own way. (and that includes when it is a Euro crowdfunding and I am the one paying 40+ for shipping)

nkelsch wrote:
(and that includes when it is a Euro crowdfunding and I am the one paying 40+ for shipping)

Well, you're not really the majority on that, given the usual reaction to such campaigns

 RiTides wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
(and that includes when it is a Euro crowdfunding and I am the one paying 40+ for shipping)

Well, you're not really the majority on that, given the usual reaction to such campaigns

I'm in that group, too.

Had to do it with Mierce (around $60 so far).

Have chosen not to back due to others.

I guess I don't know what else people want them to do....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh forgot one. I had to pay like, $18 to ship a rather small Freeboters Fate IndieGoGo

 cincydooley wrote:
I guess I don't know what else people want them to do....

I'll use small words:

I want them to say "It will cost no more than this much to buy this from where you live."

I can tell you from personal experience that shipping costs can eat you alive even if there are no increases. It is not possible to predict the exact costs of postage on any given package weight to any country in the world 6 months ahead of the actual shippign date. Futher complicate that by adding in random shippign wieghts and possibly package dimensions, and then possible rate increases and you have a recipe for serious financial disaster.

In my own case I am STILL using regular profits to pay off the postage costs of my first KS fulfillment.

Also consider as well that if postage cost are collected via kickstarter then KS and Amazon will take a 10% cut of those funds right off the top and then what is left over is a percentage out of the actual funding of the product's development. You are talkign 10's of thousands fo dollars on CMoN projects there.

I know that I won;t ever include shipping costs on any KS funding I collect ever again. It si just too risky.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I guess I don't know what else people want them to do....

I'll use small words:

I want them to say "It will cost no more than this much to buy this from where you live."

I think Tre covered it pretty succinctly. I don't think CMON should charge shipping until it is actually time to ship, as 6 months is a long time use a crystal ball to forecast something as fickle as shipping costs.

Do I think they should lock you into your pledge, not let you out of it if your shipping were going to be $60? No. But I think both you and CMON can check with those major shipping companies in your area, to see what they might be. Accurate? Not really, as they won't ship for 6 months. Lock in a price to keep you as a customer? Not a chance. Sorry, the company staying solvent is more important than having you as a customer in a KS. Maybe you'll buy it at retail, maybe you won't. But buying it at retail, you still pay for the shipping cost, it is just defrayed for whichever store/company you buy it from, as they bought in bulk to lower shipping cost.

You guys are all ignoring the logistical nightmare of getting everyone to pay Again for shipping, later. Tre, I know you've pulled this off with your smaller recent kickstarter, but for a giant campaign like this that is also a giant pain...

In the end, they can do it how they like and it's pretty clear they've chosen this way, I just think the other point of view is reasonable too.

If they were running a 'standard' KS I'd agree

but since they'll (probably) have a pledge manager which backers will have to use anyway so it will be straight forward to grab the extra cash for shipping then

I imagine they'll just wait till a couple of months before the shipping date to open it

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
If they were running a 'standard' KS I'd agree

but since they'll (probably) have a pledge manager which backers will have to use anyway so it will be straight forward to grab the extra cash for shipping then

I imagine they'll just wait till a couple of months before the shipping date to open it

I agree, having pledged 3 times with CMON, I think their pledge manager is pretty easy to use, and will serve the purpose quite efficiently of collecting the shipping cost after the close. Plus, I think it is smarter to not pay 10% to oblivious parties (KS and Amazon) for shipping fees.

(and as an unintended bonus they'll take about 10-15% less cash up front which means fewer stretch goals hit and less stuff given away so they save money at both ends)

Well that is a fair point that my method won't work for a campaign the size of one fo CMoN's BUT if anyo company can pull it off well it is CMoN.

nkelsch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I might have been willing to go for this, but with shipping being a giant blank canvas, I feel like I may as well wait for retail.

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint on the shipping. If they would have included it but added for RoW, peopel would have flipped their gak for 'damned Americans getting free shipping'.

The truth is people want free shipping, world-wide and project expense, and that is unreasonable.

What part of "giant blank canvas" do you not understand? I've spent more than you ever will on international shipping, so I'm quite seasoned to it as an added expense. However - "it'll be however much it is - we'll tell you (much) later." doesn't work for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bolognesus wrote:

Screw the whole "wheeeh, RoW backers want us to pay for their shipping" argument (and its proponents, while we're at it); we'd like reasonable shipping set. that will be more RoW than CONUS - fine. No more than reasonable, actually. But a seller not quoting shipping until backers are an entirely captive party to the agreement, having already paid for the product, creates a lack of incentive to be efficient/creative in shipping at least; it'll encourage them to shift the 'grey area' costs (packing/sorting related) into paid shipping services as much as possible, to detriment of backers, if nothing else.
Besides,it is simply a risk many backers will refuse to take.

Shipping from China to Australia is actually pretty cheap. Freighting from China to somewhere else in China (like a distribution centre) is also pretty reasonable, and somewhat cheaper than freighting to the US.

I wonder if it's cheaper than freighting in bulk to the US from China, and then sending out individual parcels to US locations?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I might have been willing to go for this, but with shipping being a giant blank canvas, I feel like I may as well wait for retail.

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint on the shipping. If they would have included it but added for RoW, peopel would have flipped their gak for 'damned Americans getting free shipping'.

The truth is people want free shipping, world-wide and project expense, and that is unreasonable.

Oh, that's the other thing. Before you decided to act like a tool and insultingly attempt to put words in my mouth or tell me what my motivations are (I might start doing that for you, too from now on. Maybe in Mantic threads when I've been broadly supportive of your points?) what was my fething comment?

Hint: It's up top. Quoted. I greeneed it up for you so you could find it and perhaps manage to not attempt to twist it. No bile. No anger. No butthurt. Just a statement of choice. "The truth" is that you don't know half of what you think you do.

Pull your head in.

 Azazelx wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I might have been willing to go for this, but with shipping being a giant blank canvas, I feel like I may as well wait for retail.

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint on the shipping. If they would have included it but added for RoW, peopel would have flipped their gak for 'damned Americans getting free shipping'.

The truth is people want free shipping, world-wide and project expense, and that is unreasonable.

What part of "giant blank canvas" do you not understand? I've spent more than you ever will on international shipping, so I'm quite seasoned to it as an added expense. However - "it'll be however much it is - we'll tell you (much) later." doesn't work for me.

The part where they didn't give a blank canvas, they gave clear estimations which are in-line with dozens of other KSs real costs and said " it may increase based upon change of size and shipping at date of shipping." Very reasonable for lots of people.

While you may not like that answer, that is hardly a blank canvass. And your expectation of a "set in stone" shipping cost where others subsidize you or the company eats the costs is not reasonable which is the alternative.

And it seems the truth is not with the estimate, you simply don't like the cost. You feel it should be done cheaper. companies have no obligation to cater to you and may not feel it is worth the trouble of china distributors or the risk. Simply put, they gave you information, if you don't like it, don't pledge... That is way different than being given no information as you have said.

Nah.

Once again trying to put words in my mouth and/or trying to tell me my motivations. I also said nothing of "set in stone" (not my words) nor anything of subsidies. Interestingly, you keep repeating "if you don't like it, don't back it" - which was pretty much the gist of my initial comment that seems to have sent you into some kind of amusingly apoplectic frenzy for some unfathomable reason. The "China distributor" comes from their own information page, by the way.

So basically, you're again attempting to put words into my mouth, attempting to tell me what my own motivations are, have misquoted me, and failed to read the information on the KS page. You are either wilfully doing all of this, or you're simply not very smart. Maybe a little of each. I've lost what respect I had developed for you. You're merely a troll/internet tough guy, and you're joining my ignore list.

Now go away.

 cincydooley wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh forgot one. I had to pay like, $18 to ship a rather small Freeboters Fate IndieGoGo

You did? Are you sure? I didn't. And the campaign page says Free shipping world-wide on all the pledges.

I was looking for a nice SDE type game and this does look nice but... I backed Sedition Wars and that turned into one ungodly mess with lots of cut corners, so I think I'll hang on and see what Soda Pop come up with for there game.

 Gomezaddams wrote:
I was looking for a nice SDE type game and this does look nice but... I backed Sedition Wars and that turned into one ungodly mess with lots of cut corners, so I think I'll hang on and see what Soda Pop come up with for there game.

Heh. Someone should tell you about Relic Knights and Robotech.

CMON is looking into whether the factory may be able to supply some painted sets

Creator CoolMiniOrNot 30 minutes ago

We're looking into the possibility of a set painted to factory/tabletop standards. Based on past experience asking painting studios to do it has been expensive and unreliable, so getting those painted at the factory and limiting the quantity available to 100 or 200 seems like the way to go but will run to about $5 a figure

(not of interest to me but maybe somebody else?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So we've chatted about postage but forgotten to talk about stretch goals

achived so far






optional things

 AlexHolker wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I guess I don't know what else people want them to do....

I'll use small words:

I want them to say "It will cost no more than this much to buy this from where you live."

Fine, it wont cost more than a million to ship to you. I get you're in Australia, and shipping is insane to/from there. Its why I never order anything from Back 2 Base-ix anymore, or back any projects from there. Assume it doubles, is it still worth it to you? I can't imagine it going up more than that, so use that as your price point. I think the better goal would be to figure out how much you're saving off retail. If its a lot, then significant shipping variation will matter less. If its a little, then you might just want to wait.

But can we please stop going round and round about their lack of a crystal ball and unwillingness to put themselves at financial risk for not knowing how much shipping costs will rise a year from now? Its like getting mad about "estimated delivery date". They aren't going to give a hard number. If that's an issue, don't pledge. I can't imagine it changing THAT much, so just throw your change in a jar and you'll have it more than covered by the time this thing is ready to ship in whatever month it inevitably gets bumped back to in 2015.

On the game itself, is it just me, or does it seem that there not enough monsters in this? Maybe each orc is the equivalent of 2 heroes, but with 4 players controlling 3 adventurers, there's a max of 25 monsters vs 12 heroes. I'm a little worried about the game being very repetitive at that point with little potential in spawning variation. Is there a rules preview up anywhere I missed?

I'm not entirely sold on the sculpts, at least compared to the chibi figures I already have (SDE and Impact). The faces are really full of character, particularly some of the males with the exaggerated features. But the proportions are off from everything else I have. I wonder if that was intentional to create their own brand and style.

I'd assume the proportions are intentional, and especially to differentiate themselves from the competition.

We definitely need to see more monster variety and numbers.

I'd like to see more boxed expansion encounters like the nameless. Wouldn't surprise me to see a few like that pop up in the add ons as things progress.

Does anyone else see a crease or sharp contour line running across the noseless faces of the female figures?



I can't decide if it's the paint job or (looking at the shading) the model itself.

I'm not a fan of this project at all.

Figures are inconsistant, the "Chibi" figures look like old Muscle figures, and they really don't fit in in a patterned game, they just look like someone dumped a bunch of the muscle figures in a pile and thought it might make a good game.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/31625/brief-history-muscle-figures

As to the shipping, CMON has plenty of experience, its not anything like using a crystal ball. Its a standard square box, pretty much the same size as any other of the million buck projects they pulled out of thier preverbial hats. Aside from the stutter steps, they will do all right for themselves strictly by name alone. ( Even if I'm not a fan of them, there are plenty of satisfied people that like thier logo, or something.)

If they were smart, they would get in on a shipping contact, or buy on into a shipping deal for thier products and call it a day. Its not like they can't afford it at this point.

To me, all that they want to take on the lions share of the gaming industry like a movie producer, guess the paying public gets to now see how they like shimming the S and H out of the KS projects and adding it to the bottom line...