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2014/04/02 23:20:55
Subject: Re:MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
PsychoticStorm wrote: So when I said 10 or so pages ago that the sculpts could do a remake in the legs department, I was right and not negative?
They need not be mutually exclusive.
Factually legitimate concerns can be part of a seemingly overtly negative crusade to denigrate a project or company beyond reason (e.g. have a look at any GW-discussion on Dakka), where the latter actually obscures and distracts from the otherwise legit criticism.
Can't even blame it on being old models that needed updating these are brand new sculpts.
If any of the Myth models turned out like these, I would be pretty mad. I hope Marcus the Ready is a good model since I have not seen it yet!
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2014/04/02 23:39:13
Subject: MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
Any sculptor or artist of any kind can turn out both good and bad work on different days. It's the nature of creative work.
The editor or commissioner of the artwork then has the responsibility to tell the artist "great work" or "not good enough" or "change this" as needed. Ideally instead of "close enough!" or "awesome!" for every piece of submitted work.
We've been through that discussion in many of the Mantic threads, and while I'm not a fan of Rob Lane, if you follow the Mierce thread you can see that Mierce requests modifications and changes from their sculptors and artists with some regularity - and their quality speaks for itself..
Azazelx wrote: Any sculptor or artist of any kind can turn out both good and bad work on different days. It's the nature of creative work.
The editor or commissioner of the artwork then has the responsibility to tell the artist "great work" or "not good enough" or "change this" as needed. Ideally instead of "close enough!" or "awesome!" for every piece of submitted work.
We've been through that discussion in many of the Mantic threads, and while I'm not a fan of Rob Lane, if you follow the Mierce thread you can see that Mierce requests modifications and changes from their sculptors and artists with some regularity - and their quality speaks for itself..
I'm going to lay this at the feet of the concepts: as I noted earlier, I find that this style worked very well for MYTH, but just doesn't seem all that well suited to the sci-fi elements. It especially breaks down with the females, which it's nice to see I'm not the only one that doesn't seem to find their genders all that distinguishable.
The biggest problem though seems to me to be what others mentioned, that the art style and setting just don't quite seem to sell "sci-fi", more like near future. Which leaves the concepts/minis just looking odd. For example, the EU sculpts shown; they aren't powered armor, so why so many hard, flat surfaces? It's not intended to be archaic, so why the oddly prominent codpieces (on what is, apparently, the woman as well!)?
Unfortunately, if I'm right then there is basically no fixing things as Az hopes: it's not that the sculptor isn't giving the boss what he really wants, it's that what the boss wants isn't something that has the same appeal. Given how many sculpts already existed for this game, I fear that is much more probably the issue.
Not sure what Euro following we have here, but this is good news for those folks,... Particularly the German speakers.
Producing a French version has not been finalized yet, but is in the works:
I can tell you that Ulisses Spiel and MegaCon games are working together really closely on many things at this point.
I'll put out an update soon, but I can confirm that Recon has within EU shipping, Recon translated to German, and they are going to translate MERCS TT as well.
2014/04/03 02:39:25
Subject: MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
Unfortunately, if I'm right then there is basically no fixing things as Az hopes: it's not that the sculptor isn't giving the boss what he really wants, it's that what the boss wants isn't something that has the same appeal. Given how many sculpts already existed for this game, I fear that is much more probably the issue.
Oh, I'm not hoping that these will be fixed. Their attitude to it all speaks volumes. My point was essentially that any artist can turn out bad work, and that it's the responsibility of those who hired the artist to say "not good enough! do it again!"
That guy doing the EU video sounds like he's had a few too many before filming that video. Adepticon pre-party? Just trying to calm some nerves? I like the Shock trooper quite a lot and the Analyst is much better as a mini than I expected from the concept art. Sergeant is pretty uninspired and that Leader is just freaking bad, really really bad. She looks VERY rushed, like they couldn't spend enough time on her because they needed the models to bring to Adpeticon.
But as for the style in general, I'm actually a big fan of it for sci-fi. Myth was just a bit TOO saturday morning cartoon for me and although I understand the appeal, the monsters were just too much on the silly/cutesy-cartoon side for my personal tastes, so I quietly skipped it. The MERCS stuff ALSO has a late '80s/early '90s cartoon/comic vibe, but in a slightly more serious tone. Very 90's Marvel universe, very GI Joe and Exo Squad. The MERCs stuff may as well have been a line of 3 3/4" action figures. These aren't hyper-detailed Infinity figures for sure, but they make up for that detail with style, they have a distinct aesthetic and they LOOK like cartoon/drawings turned into 3d sculpts to me. If that isn't your thing, that isn't your thing, but I'm all over it.
So we get a game with miniatures that clearly look good to at least 2100 of us, gameplay that has solid potential, and enough extra toys that I can use them for other things IF the game goes full-on Sedition Wars on us. Great. Thumbs-up. I'm not blind to the downfalls of this project or the game itself and I'm certainly not either a MERCS superfan nor a doomsayer by any means (which apparently is a damnable offense on the internet). As an outside onlooker that had no interest in Myth and never played the table-top MERCS game I just feel like the middle-road isn't getting enough air-time here. You can call me a Champion of the Middle if you want, but it isn't from disinterest.
You guys are just now noticing the berets on top of the helmets? You didn't notice those when they released the concept art? Well, at least with plastic, you could just shave them right off.
Unfortunately, if I'm right then there is basically no fixing things as Az hopes: it's not that the sculptor isn't giving the boss what he really wants, it's that what the boss wants isn't something that has the same appeal. Given how many sculpts already existed for this game, I fear that is much more probably the issue.
Oh, I'm not hoping that these will be fixed. Their attitude to it all speaks volumes. My point was essentially that any artist can turn out bad work, and that it's the responsibility of those who hired the artist to say "not good enough! do it again!"
Good news about the female leader's legs. They don't need to be fixed at all.
Mecs on update comments wrote:She is fine. Don't let the angle of the picture fool you. We'll take some 360 degree shots and you'll see... or better yet, come by Adepticon in Chicago this weekend and see for yourself.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2014/04/03 10:12:49
Subject: MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
The legs are too skinny for my taste,... Same as the CCC Gunner; but the armor on the lower legs does make it look worse.
By bulking up the lower leg, it accentuates how skinny her thighs are. Also, someone commented that they were not in power armor,.... But they are to some extent (not like full space marine armor), but however it is supposed to work (not sure without linkages and such), in the TT game play, a result of getting hit can be "broken armor" which makes your guys fairly useless (your movement is reduced to a minimum, and you lose any other benefits of the armor - like active camo for KemVar).
That said,... I think both of those models are too skinny,... They should have muscles like they had been in boot camp, and trained on days that they are not on missions. (Not to mention the fact that I like the curves,.... Not the runway model look)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nice info about how they are doing blind play testing of Recon. There has been concern over how they will do this differently from the MYTH rule book,..... and this sounds like good news to me:
I originally posted this in a Myth thread, but I think it is just as relevant to talk about over here at Recon.
I was part of a Recon blind test recently. I live near Indy and, having enjoyed MERCS and Myth, when Brian put out a call for playtesters on the local facebook group, I dropped by.
I'm limited in what I can say about mechanics by an NDA, but I can tell you that Brian put all 4 of us in a room by ourselves, turned on a camera, gave us the beta rules, and left us to our own devices.
We played for about 3 hours. During that time we had to call for Brian and ask him a question a grand total of about 2 times, I think. Both times the questions we had were answered by the rules document we had in front of us; we had just overlooked the rule.
We made copious notes on the rules document and, having seen the issues people are having with Myth, basically any time we did something that I didn't remember us reading about in our initial read-through of the rules, I would pipe up and say "Now where in the rules does it tell us to do that?" and we would look through the document and make sure the rules had told us clearly what to do.
Here is an example. A certain event called for "The players draw a card." We talked about that sentence a good deal. What does it really mean? How could it be interpreted? The players EACH draw a card? The players draw ONE card for the whole group? Again, we made notes of things like this, trying to find ways that even seemingly simple instructions could be unclear.
At any rate, I say all that to say this: MERCS is certainly blind-testing Recon, and I think the game will be the better for it. And for those wondering, yes, it was a blast to play. It felt like a fusion of Pandemic, and a tabletop skirmish game.
I'd also like to add a final note. I had met the MERCS guys at Gencon last year and sat through a demo of Myth with them. This was my second time interacting with them in person, and my initial impression of them, that they are passionate guys trying to put out the highest quality product they can to the best of their abilities, was reaffirmed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/03 14:30:49
2014/04/03 18:09:53
Subject: MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
CptJake wrote: Good news about the female leader's legs. They don't need to be fixed at all.
Mecs on update comments wrote:She is fine. Don't let the angle of the picture fool you. We'll take some 360 degree shots and you'll see... or better yet, come by Adepticon in Chicago this weekend and see for yourself.
Oh boy, good to know that we the ignorant public were wrong, and that the figure is perfect as it is. Of all the ways you could phrase that thought, they chose one of the worst. Generally, you want the person running your social media to have, maybe, a modicum of people skills.
The EU figures are bad, plain and simple. They look like an amateur hobbyist's attempt to sculpt their own figures for the game.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
Malifaux: Lady Justice
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2014/04/03 20:32:37
Subject: MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
You are exactly right, Orlando. And there's the rub.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yamato wrote: The legs are too skinny for my taste,... Same as the CCC Gunner; but the armor on the lower legs does make it look worse.
By bulking up the lower leg, it accentuates how skinny her thighs are. Also, someone commented that they were not in power armor,.... But they are to some extent (not like full space marine armor), but however it is supposed to work (not sure without linkages and such), in the TT game play, a result of getting hit can be "broken armor" which makes your guys fairly useless (your movement is reduced to a minimum, and you lose any other benefits of the armor - like active camo for KemVar).
That said,... I think both of those models are too skinny,... They should have muscles like they had been in boot camp, and trained on days that they are not on missions. (Not to mention the fact that I like the curves,.... Not the runway model look)
They could just give them baggy fatigue pants like the blokes have and the problem would be solved as well. Though I'd also much prefer visibly muscular women than the ill-proportioned stick-limbed creatures that we have in their stead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/03 20:36:51
I will have to defend their response on that one (don't act shocked) I can understand them saying its the angle and we will give you a 360 to see her better.
I will not defend them if they keep this stance after the 360 gets rejected by the audience, because of the above reported issues.
2014/04/03 21:35:24
Subject: MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
I see what you are saying. I submit, they could have taken and shown pictures from any angle. I suspect they chose the one that makes the figure look the best.
If that is the case, a 360 view isn't going to help. If my suspicions are wrong I'll admit this figure is great when they show the better pictures showing it to be great.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2014/04/03 21:40:00
Subject: MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
CptJake wrote: I see what you are saying. I submit, they could have taken and shown pictures from any angle. I suspect they chose the one that makes the figure look the best.
If that is the case, a 360 view isn't going to help. If my suspicions are wrong I'll admit this figure is great when they show the better pictures showing it to be great.
Agree. Almost 100% of the time when a KS says 'They look better in person' or 'it is the angle' or 'oh it is just a terrible camera picture' they are always full of crap and the model is never better. I suppose 'it is a bad angle' is code for 'we can't afford to resculpt-fix it and we have to stick with the sculpt or scrap the model.
I have yet to see one example of a actual BAD SCULPT in a KS which was actually redeemed when it hit backers hands. Not a one.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2014/04/04 01:23:11
Subject: Re:MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
So am I the only person who likes how EUinc looks? I think the berets look really cool. I like the helmets and armor a lot. the leaders legs are indeed too small and the faces sadly don't look good (I plan on replacing them with helmet and visor heads) but besides that I think they look nice.
2014/04/04 01:28:06
Subject: Re:MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
I think the EU are the darlings of this KS, as they are entirely new sculpts and being added to the Mercs universe for the first time as models. So they probably feel they're the pinnacle of their offerings, and since the Mercs figures are going to be in ultra-spectacular miniature plastic, these are far superior to other miniatures' companies plastic figures. So of course your opinion of them is wrong. They're fantastic. Drive to Adepticon so they can tell you why you're wrong AND they're fantastic. And will be much much better than the other figures in the boardgame...
2014/04/04 03:41:44
Subject: Re:MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$355k, 3 weeks to go
To be honest I am puzzled by their attitude, really puzzled.
I can accept throwing a bad sculpt because they have already invested time and resources when they do it on their own and do it in metal/ resin with the intention to redo them later on, but this is a kickstarter and the product is plastic.
2014/04/05 01:17:02
Subject: Re:MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$362k, 2 weeks to go
Another day of stagnancy. I was hoping that their ads and being at Adepticon would throw some energy into this. I hope they've got something up their sleeves for this weekend.
2014/04/05 01:37:52
Subject: Re:MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$362k, 2 weeks to go
Salacious Greed wrote: Another day of stagnancy. I was hoping that their ads and being at Adepticon would throw some energy into this. I hope they've got something up their sleeves for this weekend.
Aren't weekends usually a stagnant time for kickstarters? Not sure how much slower this one can get though.
They finally upped their frequency of ads,...... Like I said before,... This weekend will be litmus test I think,....
They are giving away a free figure to anyone who comes to their booth at Adepticon,... Just like they did last year when myth was running, so they should be exposing folks to the game,..... It did provide a nice boost last time,... But if it is still flat after this??????
They've teased again about some cool stuff to be released once it gets to 365k,.... But it sounds like a "Tango and Cash" add on,..... I'm not so sure that these pulp add ons are driving any real movement (they don't do much for me).
I think they would be much better served to have all the faction videos up, including the ones that are available for add on mission packs at this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/05 03:51:36
2014/04/05 04:37:09
Subject: MERCS: Recon – Kickstarter: Near future coop miniatures board game - @$362k, 2 weeks to go
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