Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been wondering, how come there aren't any Psychic chapter masters? Or, for that matter, Psychic initiates?
As far as Chapter Masters go, it obviously wouldn't be frequent, but wouldn't a Librarian come along once in a while who was also fit to lead his Chapter? (The same applies to Captains.)
On the topic of Initiates... We only ever see Librarians. (And, occasionally, a high Librarian like Tigurius.) They obviously wouldn't put untrained Psykers into conbat, but Librarians always jump straight to positions of command. Why aren't there any low level (ML1, for example) Psykers showing up anywhere else? Why do they skip the Scout/Tactical/Veteran rank system and jump to immediately leading armies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaand this was supposed to be in the Fluff/Background section. My bad.

Magnus has not found any worthy yet. Give him time to eyeball the situation and I am sure he will get back to you.

There's no rules for them, but there are psychic chapter masters, rarely, in the fluff of 40k. If you've played the Dawn of War franchise, the chapter master of the Blood Ravens and primary antagonist of the series is a psyker. (You sort of kill him in DOW2 and the official chapter master now is the half-cybernetic Gabriel Angelos now, but still.)

C:SM would seem to agree with the perception that librarians are immediately elevated above their battle brothers:
"If a recruit survives the rigorous testing, he joins the Librarius as a Lexicanium" "Librarians hold a functionary rank, describing their role within the Librarius as well as their position within the chapter's hierarchy"
However C:BA says:
"the librarian must still endure the same trials and challenges as his battle brothers... He is, after all, still a space marine, and must stand on equal footing with his comrades in times of war." "Gruelling though they may be, the librarian's training serves well to transform him from a mere battle brother to a fully fledged weapon of psychic destruction" This would suggest at some point they are considered 'mere battle brothers'.
Although it does also state: "Librarians always stand somewhat apart from the rest of the chapter. No bond of blood or battle can ever quite dispel the unease which ordinary Blood Angels view their psychically-gifted-bretheren." This line, combined with all the extra training mentuoned earlier in their entries, may suggest why they do not serve in normal space marine squads.

Some chapters send their psychic initiates to Titan to join the Grey Knights.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I've been wondering, how come there aren't any Psychic chapter masters? Or, for that matter, Psychic initiates?
As far as Chapter Masters go, it obviously wouldn't be frequent, but wouldn't a Librarian come along once in a while who was also fit to lead his Chapter? (The same applies to Captains.)
On the topic of Initiates... We only ever see Librarians. (And, occasionally, a high Librarian like Tigurius.) They obviously wouldn't put untrained Psykers into conbat, but Librarians always jump straight to positions of command. Why aren't there any low level (ML1, for example) Psykers showing up anywhere else? Why do they skip the Scout/Tactical/Veteran rank system and jump to immediately leading armies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaand this was supposed to be in the Fluff/Background section. My bad.

This is going to seem boring for a second, but when you say "initiate," you mean scout, right? It's funny, because the main place Initiate shows up as a type of space marine, it's in Black Templars, where initiates are the ones in power armor, and the ones in scout armor are neophytes. So like, that is what an initiate is, is any marine who is a full marine, like he's been initiated, and if he is still a scout, he has not been initiated; he can't be an initiate.

Like, that was going to segue somehow but here we are and I'm just going to be abrupt instead.

wouldn't a Librarian come along once in a while who was also fit to lead his Chapter?

How would they find out? A Librarian does not have any units under his command. Like, he does not have a company, the way that a captain is captain of the fourth company or the tenth company. So how would they find out? If a Librarian could fill out a good resume for becoming Chapter Master, he'd have to run a smaller formation, you know like equip the squads, recruit members from the other companies, keep the tanks filled with gas and the bolters stocked. If he did that, he'd be a captain, and not really a librarian, and then you wouldn't have to ask the question because he'd be in the normal group of people who become chapter masters.

Oh but you are talking about things like mastery levels. The force organization chart doesn't exist except for in the rule book, is why. Like, marines do not have conversations about how they do not have enough compulsory troops choices and can't have three predators, a devastator squad, and a vindicator in the same army.

And then, this is like asking where all the tactical squad members with bs5 are. There have to be some. The thing is, it would be irrelevant.

I mean, do you worry about which librarian it is exactly who is in your army for a battle, like why they are fighting that battle, how they got to that planet, what they are fighting over, how many units they have in other parts of the war zone? If you don't, then when the librarian has a bad day and you fail all his psychic tests, he's a lexicanum, and when you pass them all he's an epistolary.

greyknight12 wrote:Some chapters send their psychic initiates to Titan to join the Grey Knights.

No, they don't.

The Grey Knights and the Astartes get their psychic initiates from the same place - the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. Every single sanctioned (and yes, Librarians are sanctioned) Psyker in the Imperium has come from the AAT.

If a Marine discovers that a recruit has psychic potential, they are immediately sent to the AAT for testing and processing. If their minds prove strong enough, they are then sent back to the chapter.

Some recruits 'fail the testing' despite being suitable. These are the recruits that are sent to the Grey Knights.

Waaaghpower wrote:I've been wondering, how come there aren't any Psychic chapter masters? Or, for that matter, Psychic initiates?
As far as Chapter Masters go, it obviously wouldn't be frequent, but wouldn't a Librarian come along once in a while who was also fit to lead his Chapter? (The same applies to Captains.)
On the topic of Initiates... We only ever see Librarians. (And, occasionally, a high Librarian like Tigurius.) They obviously wouldn't put untrained Psykers into conbat, but Librarians always jump straight to positions of command. Why aren't there any low level (ML1, for example) Psykers showing up anywhere else? Why do they skip the Scout/Tactical/Veteran rank system and jump to immediately leading armies?

Librarian isn't a command rank. There is no fluff reason (in a codex chapter) for them to be the sole HQ in charge of a theatre. If the only HQ in your game is your librarian, they are on a mission from the theatre commander with a temporary command, usually due to manpower shortages (the Astartes always have manpower shortages).

That said, there are chapters in which Librarians hold command ranks. Ahazra Redth, Chief Librarian of the Mantis Warriors is the de facto Chapter Master, while their actual Chapter Master rots in a cell on Titan (note: the Mantis Warriors are unaware of the Grey Knight involvement). Again, the Blood Ravens can be mentioned. I'm not personally aware of any others, but they likely exist.

I think the question regarding scouts is easily explained, as soon as a recruit shows any psychic potential, he would be sent to the librarius for training. Whilst it's still reasonable to assume he would have to pass his basic training as a marine, remember that these are not unsactioned psykers, and that they are not permitted to use their powers without the Psychic hood. So in terms of game play, even if a scout has some latent ability he would already have been lectured on the dangers of using his powers without the hood.

As for Chapter Masters, the most integral part of the Space Marines strength comes from Brotherhood. Being in the Librarius removes a marine from that close camraderie that a squad member would enjoy. So while a Librarian could be liked, he would never have the same closeness that a Sergeant would have with his squad, and therefore would not likely be ear marked for promotion. Also I believe that their battelfied role does not make them ideal tactical leaders. When their minds are focussed on chanelling the energy of the warp, they cannot effectively manage to the flow of battle themselves. Although it game it is common to have Libbies leady armies, in the fluff I think it is more common that they would be supporting a Captain or a Chapter Master.

Kaldor draigo...

Anyway you come in doing your SM training bit as you do then if you have some ability you get adopted by the librarius which is head up by a chief librarian (dont know them all but Tigarius/Ezekiel are examples) iirc there are 3 stages to becoming a fully fledged librarian. They seem to stand apart from the chapter a bit like chaplains. they are all entitled to a command squad but they still have to listen to the captain and chapter master and what not.

The only way i can describe it that is understandable is like in a company you have
1 CEO -obviously in charge of everything (chapter master)
10 contracts managers- in charge of a certain aspect of the company (captains)
1 office manager- may have control over 5 or six secretaries or document controllers (librarians)
1 head of commercial- again may have 5 or 6 commercial managers (chaplains)

the office manager and head of commercial stand apart from the contracts managers and their staff answer to them but will still carry out what the contracts managers need of them. they are slightly indepentant...

no idea whether that is easier to understand or not but that is how i see it.

I don't recall it being in the BA codices, but in the BA novels Mephiston is said to be second in command. He leads many campaigns on his own and it could be assumed that if Dante is ever to die, Mephiston could possibly replace him. I believe he'll have to fight Astorath to the death for the ascension to be accepted across the entire chapter. Those two have issues, I'd love to see them slug it out

Yeah the Grey Knights can answer for this.

Kaldor Draigo is a Grey Knight. All Grey Knights are Pyskers so it doesn't really count.

Not sure I really agree with you office analogy. Librarians are not part of the command structure of a Chapter. They are simply powerful specialists that fulfil a specific role in the day to day, as well as battlefield functioning of a Chapter. I believe they are responsible for documenting the Chapter's history as well as the military aspect.
On the battlefield a Librarian may "lead" an assualt or defense but only in terms of the fact that they are a powerful individual to rally around, but in organisational terms they are not commanders and sit outside of the basic structure of the Chapter, hence they will not be promoted to Chapter Master. The chain of command is, Marine, Sergeant, Captain, CM. Libbies, Chaplains and Tech marines are all specially trained for a specific function and will never rise to the ranks of Chapter Master, although as has been mentioned, there are higher ranks of each specialisation which hold a degree more respect in the Chapter's traditions.

I agree with that and i was trying to get across that they were seperated and out of the overall command structure.

take a look at the HH stuff though because Chaplain Nemiel of the DA is quite clearly a leader he has his command squad and orders men around just as a captain or sargeant would.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Librarians are not part of the command structure of a Chapter.

Tell that to the Dark Angels.

Chapters diverge from strict interpretations of the Codex Astartes all the times. You're not going to run into a Librarian leading the Ultramarines or one of their notable successor chapters any time soon, but the guys who don't really follow it strictly that have more psychic inclinations? It could happen.

The fluff already supports two examples of it already mentioned in this thread, so clearly it could happen. If someone wanted to make their own fan chapter and come up with some special Psychic chapter master rules, I'd be all for it.

The Soul drinker chapter master was a psyker

GreyChaos wrote:
I don't recall it being in the BA codices, but in the BA novels Mephiston is said to be second in command. He leads many campaigns on his own and it could be assumed that if Dante is ever to die, Mephiston could possibly replace him. I believe he'll have to fight Astorath to the death for the ascension to be accepted across the entire chapter. Those two have issues, I'd love to see them slug it out

In the dex it states corbulo and astorath take joint command on the death of the chapter master. (P8)

The Anathema wrote:
The Soul drinker chapter master was a psyker

He also had spider legs.

Poly Ranger wrote:

GreyChaos wrote:
I don't recall it being in the BA codices, but in the BA novels Mephiston is said to be second in command. He leads many campaigns on his own and it could be assumed that if Dante is ever to die, Mephiston could possibly replace him. I believe he'll have to fight Astorath to the death for the ascension to be accepted across the entire chapter. Those two have issues, I'd love to see them slug it out

In the dex it states corbulo and astorath take joint command on the death of the chapter master. (P8)

Makes more sense than letting an obvious madma- oh, wait, this is the Imperium we're talking about.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

GreyChaos wrote:
I don't recall it being in the BA codices, but in the BA novels Mephiston is said to be second in command. He leads many campaigns on his own and it could be assumed that if Dante is ever to die, Mephiston could possibly replace him. I believe he'll have to fight Astorath to the death for the ascension to be accepted across the entire chapter. Those two have issues, I'd love to see them slug it out

In the dex it states corbulo and astorath take joint command on the death of the chapter master. (P8)

Makes more sense than letting an obvious madma- oh, wait, this is the Imperium we're talking about.

Two madmen is better than one

Those with psychic potential and abilities who are not yet Librarians are probably prohibited from using their potentially dangerous, untrained skills on the battlefield.

As for positions of command; it would not surprise me if there were an unspoken rule (occasionally broken by certain chapters) not to give positions of additional power to Librarians.

Why?

1 - They already have their formidable psychic powers, you don't need even more power concentrated in a single individual.
2 - They are ultimately more vulnerable to demonic corruption than their un-psychic bretheren (Psykers are always a risk, no matter how well that risk has been mitigated).
3 - Give the terrible consequences of psychic abilities gone wrong, giving a Librarian the distraction of command, is probably not a great idea.

This is probably also why they are normally separated into the Librarius.

Poly Ranger wrote:

GreyChaos wrote:
I don't recall it being in the BA codices, but in the BA novels Mephiston is said to be second in command. He leads many campaigns on his own and it could be assumed that if Dante is ever to die, Mephiston could possibly replace him. I believe he'll have to fight Astorath to the death for the ascension to be accepted across the entire chapter. Those two have issues, I'd love to see them slug it out

In the dex it states corbulo and astorath take joint command on the death of the chapter master. (P8)

Well the entire quote is that they take "joint temporary command". Astorath is almost always on the move and would not be able to return to Baal, so it would more than likely fall to Curbulo to lead until a new Chapter Master is appointed. With that considered, Mephiston leads far more war parties then either Astorath or Curbulo. I'm sure when the edict was created in M35 no Blood Angel would have ever foreseen someone like Mephiston obtaining the power and influence that he has. He acts as Dante's counsel and chief enforcer on most matters and I would like to think if Dante died while the Blood Angels needed a strong militant leader, Mephiston would step up and lead the chapter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

greyknight12 wrote:Some chapters send their psychic initiates to Titan to join the Grey Knights.

No, they don't.

Yes they do.

"Indeed, some Chapters, notably the Exorcists and the Silver Skulls, take it upon themselves to identify those amongst their own recruits in whom the Grey Knights might show an interest and notify the Gatherers directly...
...The Chamber of Trials is where aspirants arrive and their training begins"

- Codex: Grey Knights p. 8

New book/Matt Ward fluff, but even Codex: Daemonhunters (p. 6) had recruits going straight to Titan from wherever they were drawn.

Typhon was 1st captain and a psyker if you're willing to count preheresy/traitors. He just couldn't let old morty see him or he'd get grounded or something. A ton of the thousand sons were psykers too, possibly all of the high rankers.

The real reason is that you can't put a dude in charge who only have 2 wounds. I resent chaos sorcerers' demotion to spikey librarians

As to why more chapter masters aren't psykers..

Would YOU want the bloke who is in personal unequivocal command of 1000 super soldiers, tons of armour and a space fleet to also be the person most likely to suffer from a daemonic possession?

Granted psykers are trained to resist such things, but that doesn't mean that they are immune. Chapter masters are much more difficult to possess if they aren't psychic, since they aren't plugged directly into the same place the Chaos Gods hang out

The Anathema wrote:
The Soul drinker chapter master was a psyker

Not applicable. Sarpedon was also a giant spider monster who murdered the original Chapter Master and then took over the Chapter, killing all who opposed the mutant leaders. It was only after he purged the whole chapter down to about 300 Marines that he realised that he was under the influence of a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. Hardly sets a precedent for Librarians as leaders.

Also I wouldn't use HH as an example because the Legion organisation was totally different and ad-hoc across the 18.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Librarians are not part of the command structure of a Chapter.

Tell that to the Dark Angels.

Chapters diverge from strict interpretations of the Codex Astartes all the times. You're not going to run into a Librarian leading the Ultramarines or one of their notable successor chapters any time soon, but the guys who don't really follow it strictly that have more psychic inclinations? It could happen.

The fluff already supports two examples of it already mentioned in this thread, so clearly it could happen. If someone wanted to make their own fan chapter and come up with some special Psychic chapter master rules, I'd be all for it.

Is the DA Chapter master a Librarian? I wasn't aware of that. If he isn't then I don't really see your point. Just because you think DA don't play by the rules doesn't mean that they would stick a Librarian in charge. I'd also obviously have no problem if someone wants to make up their own backstory, that's totally up to them. But the OP wanted to know why they don't lead Chapters.

As for Mephiston being second in command, that's more of a personal thing between him and Dante. It's not a case of Chief Librarian=2nd in command. I think he would tak eover the Chapter if Dante died but only until a real Chapter Master could be chosen. Blood Angels are a tricky example because they're leadership is pretty Atypical. They have an 800 year old Chapter Master, a Daemon Prince level, monster of a Chief Librarian and the possible reincarnation of their Primarch in the ranks.

i think he means that the DA have librarians who command troops. anyway I personally would put a librarian in charge but only depending on their psychic abilities. if they are a pyromancer then i dont see the point but if they have some form of divination they i dont see why not? who better to steer a chapter than someone who can see the future?

What if they re a pyromancer, who also happens to haev perfect tactical and strategic doctrine and is really charismatic?

Librarians are rarely noted as leading chapters because there are relatively few of them compared to normal marines, an their professional focus within the chapter is different to the typical command ranks.

Doesn't mean it can't be done. In 40k with a million worlds and effectively an infinite amount of time and space to play with you can justify anything.

 Flinty wrote:
What if they re a pyromancer, who also happens to haev perfect tactical and strategic doctrine and is really charismatic?

Librarians are rarely noted as leading chapters because there are relatively few of them compared to normal marines, an their professional focus within the chapter is different to the typical command ranks.

Doesn't mean it can't be done. In 40k with a million worlds and effectively an infinite amount of time and space to play with you can justify anything.

Because no one takes pyromancy

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
What if they re a pyromancer, who also happens to haev perfect tactical and strategic doctrine and is really charismatic?

Librarians are rarely noted as leading chapters because there are relatively few of them compared to normal marines, an their professional focus within the chapter is different to the typical command ranks.

Doesn't mean it can't be done. In 40k with a million worlds and effectively an infinite amount of time and space to play with you can justify anything.

Because no one takes pyromancy

Maybe because they are all off playing chapter master

There are Psyker Chapter Masters; Azariah Kyras is the only one mentioned by name in the fluff, but aside from other problems with him (Khorne-worshipping traitor Librarians? Seriously, Relic?) there's no reason you couldn't have a heavy-on-psykers Chapter with the Chief Librarian running the show. There are no rules for them because they're not the norm as to the Codex, let me throw together a guideline for the hell of it:

Chapter Master Librarian: WS 6, BS 5, S 4, T 4, W 4, I 5, A 4, Ld 10, Sv 3+. 150pts.
Unit: 1 Chapter Master Librarian. Infantry (Independent Character)
Equipment: Power armour, Psychic Hood, Force Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Iron Halo.
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Independent Character. Psyker (Mastery Level 3, access to any psychic Discipline in the core rules).
Options
May purchase a Storm Shield for +15pts, swap power armour for artificer armour for +20pts.
May replace bolt pistol with boltgun for free, or with an item from the Ranged Weapons list.
May purchase items from the Chapter Relics or Special-Issue Wargear Lists.
May trade all equipment for Terminator armour, a force sword, a psychic hood, a storm bolter, and an Iron Halo for +40pts. If so may not take any above options but may swap his storm bolter for a combi-weapon at +6pts or a storm shield at +5pts.
Mounted Assault: If the Librarian Chapter Master is on a Bike may take Bike squads of 5+ models in Troops.
Master of Psykers: In an army led by a Librarian Chapter Master all Librarians may access the Divination discipline, additionally Sergeants in Vanguard Veteran, Sternguard Veteran, Terminator, or Assault Terminator squads may purchase a single Psychic Mastery Level (with access to all core psychic Disciplines) at +30pts. Additionally your Alliance Level with Black Templars and Sisters of Battle becomes Desperate Allies.