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Look up the Celesial Lions.

There's less than a company left, all the apothecaries are gone and most of the leadership, too.

If anything, the Celestial Lions reinforce my theory. The Inquistion tired to wipe them out without officially declaring for them, then The Black Templars stepped in, saved the last of them and put them under protection while they rebuilt. The Wolves are far too hot headed to be treated like the Lions were, they would have hit back and rallied those that they could count on as Allies. A covert attempt to wipe them out would only strengthen the Wolves position against the Inquistion, who would look cowardly and treacherous. The only way the Inquistion could risk an attack on them was if the Wolves were directly linked with Chaos, which isn't likely to ever happen.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think people are forgetting what happened the last time the Inquistion tried to purge a Chapter-The Babab war. Just trying to take out one Chapter is impossible, the Space Marines do not like being interfered with by outside bodies. An attack on a Chapter as famous as the Space wolves would inevitably drag in other chapters, who would see the attack as an attack on the sovereignty of the Astartes in general. Best case scenario is that the wolves are eventually killed after a massive civil war lasting decades that would cause casualties in the millions. Worst case, the other big codex divergent Chapters get dragged in, seeing that they could be the next targets. If the Black Templars joined them, with their almost Legion Strength numbers, alongside other "unstable" Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, the Imperium could be pulled into an all out civil war on the scale of the Horus Heresy, with more and more chapters joing the Wolves as suspicion and sanctions are thrown at the Marines to try and keep them in line. Resources get pulled from important things like the Tyranid threat and the rise of the Necrons and before you know it, the Imperium falls in on itself. Just the fact that this is even a possibility would deter the Inquistion from ever trying it. The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

Ah, this conversation again.

Firstly, the Badab War was hardly a typical situation. The Space Marine Chapter in that case was in control of a whole system, and had the support of PDFs and other Marine Chapters. That's a whole other deal from purging a single Marine Chapter.

Now, as for Chapters in general, the Imperium has no qualms about purging those. As I noted above, it is one of the duties of the SoB to purge rogue Chapters, and their 6E codex notes that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters too. Chapters aren't untouchable, the Imperiun isn't scared to take them down if need be. They've had ample opportunities to observe that rogue Marines are bad news, so they need to be able to deal with rogue chapters quickly and firmly.

As for the Wolves in general, they too don't seem to be as untouchable as you're making out. The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Wolves right in their home system, and kept it up for three weeks. Nobody came to help the Wolves, and there were apparently no reprecussions against the Ecclesiarchy for their attack. If the Wolves really were so ubntouchable, you would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the first place, and would have gotten dire punishments afterwards.

Oh, also, I don't see the Templars being particularly eager to jump to the aid of the Wolves. The Templars are adherent believers in the Imperial Creed, and the Wolves are anti-authoritarian and suspected of pagan worship.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think people are forgetting what happened the last time the Inquistion tried to purge a Chapter-The Babab war. Just trying to take out one Chapter is impossible, the Space Marines do not like being interfered with by outside bodies. An attack on a Chapter as famous as the Space wolves would inevitably drag in other chapters, who would see the attack as an attack on the sovereignty of the Astartes in general. Best case scenario is that the wolves are eventually killed after a massive civil war lasting decades that would cause casualties in the millions. Worst case, the other big codex divergent Chapters get dragged in, seeing that they could be the next targets. If the Black Templars joined them, with their almost Legion Strength numbers, alongside other "unstable" Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, the Imperium could be pulled into an all out civil war on the scale of the Horus Heresy, with more and more chapters joing the Wolves as suspicion and sanctions are thrown at the Marines to try and keep them in line. Resources get pulled from important things like the Tyranid threat and the rise of the Necrons and before you know it, the Imperium falls in on itself. Just the fact that this is even a possibility would deter the Inquistion from ever trying it. The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

I think I said a few times now that the question concerns only the Inquisition + Whatever assets the Inquisition would have access to vs. the Space Wolves without outside interference.

Also, an "all out civil war" between a few chapters and the IoM would mean the utter annihilation of those chapters as far as I can grasp.

Also, this:

 Troike wrote:


As for the Wolves in general, they too don't seem to be as untouchable as you're making out. The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Wolves right in their home system, and kept it up for three weeks. Nobody came to help the Wolves, and there were apparently no reprecussions against the Ecclesiarchy for their attack. If the Wolves really were so ubntouchable, you would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the first place, and would have gotten dire punishments afterwards.

 Troike wrote:

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think people are forgetting what happened the last time the Inquistion tried to purge a Chapter-The Babab war. Just trying to take out one Chapter is impossible, the Space Marines do not like being interfered with by outside bodies. An attack on a Chapter as famous as the Space wolves would inevitably drag in other chapters, who would see the attack as an attack on the sovereignty of the Astartes in general. Best case scenario is that the wolves are eventually killed after a massive civil war lasting decades that would cause casualties in the millions. Worst case, the other big codex divergent Chapters get dragged in, seeing that they could be the next targets. If the Black Templars joined them, with their almost Legion Strength numbers, alongside other "unstable" Chapters like the Flesh Tearers, the Imperium could be pulled into an all out civil war on the scale of the Horus Heresy, with more and more chapters joing the Wolves as suspicion and sanctions are thrown at the Marines to try and keep them in line. Resources get pulled from important things like the Tyranid threat and the rise of the Necrons and before you know it, the Imperium falls in on itself. Just the fact that this is even a possibility would deter the Inquistion from ever trying it. The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

Ah, this conversation again.

Firstly, the Badab War was hardly a typical situation. The Space Marine Chapter in that case was in control of a whole system, and had the support of PDFs and other Marine Chapters. That's a whole other deal from purging a single Marine Chapter.

Now, as for Chapters in general, the Imperium has no qualms about purging those. As I noted above, it is one of the duties of the SoB to purge rogue Chapters, and their 6E codex notes that they've wiped out entire Marine Chapters too. Chapters aren't untouchable, the Imperiun isn't scared to take them down if need be. They've had ample opportunities to observe that rogue Marines are bad news, so they need to be able to deal with rogue chapters quickly and firmly.

As for the Wolves in general, they too don't seem to be as untouchable as you're making out. The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Wolves right in their home system, and kept it up for three weeks. Nobody came to help the Wolves, and there were apparently no reprecussions against the Ecclesiarchy for their attack. If the Wolves really were so ubntouchable, you would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the first place, and would have gotten dire punishments afterwards.

Oh, also, I don't see the Templars being particularly eager to jump to the aid of the Wolves. The Templars are adherent believers in the Imperial Creed, and the Wolves are anti-authoritarian and suspected of pagan worship.

Don't forget the Astral Claws had quite a few Forge Worlds and other such devices as controlling an entire system, they even had the side of the local Mechanicus in that sector.

Fenris is..Fenris, an angry death world where people run around in pitiful nomad conditions.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I don't think the Carcharodons would fight the Space Wolves as they seem only interested in fighting true enemies of the Imperium and would not be simply summoned at the behest of an Inquisitor.

Then the Space Sharks might find themselves not getting their fleet resupplied or turned away from Imperial Naval stations. A Chapter refuses a request from the Inquisition at its peril... even if they have a valid, good reason to do so.

You mean that if they refused the Inquisition they'd find themselves in the exact same position they were before refusing the request?

If a Chapter needs to be knocked off, the Minotaurs are the go-to Chapter of the High Lords. They're the cute new boyfriend you have who opens jars. The Space Sharks are the mechanic ex you don't like who rebuilds transmissions in his spare time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moreover, I think we're ignoring the true threat of facing the Inquisition; being drowned in a sea of space orangutans wielding experimental technology they've personally 'improved.'

 Jayden63 wrote:
So now the heads of the Great Companies that survived, do the unthinkable. They go to war against the Inquisition.

Uh ? And what next ? They go to war against night, so that it is always day, or something ?
It is not really easy to war against some covert, extremely secretive organization of loosely related individuals. Where would the Wolves attack ? Just wander randomly looking for an Inquisitor, the way the Dark Angels do for the Fallen ? A ten thousands years “war” like that, by specialists, lead to, well, not very good results. How do you expect the not really detective-inclined wolves to do any better ?

 Jayden63 wrote:
How many inquisitors will sleep well at night knowing that some of the bravest most fierce warriors of all of man and a chapter known for big risk, bigger reward tactics are now gunning for them out of revenge.

I am sure most Inquisitors do not like the idea of being hunted by Grey Knights.
Or are you speaking about the Space Wolves here ? I am pretty sure no Inquisitor, or close enough it makes no matter, fears the Wolves. It is not like they were famous for investigation and man-hunting !

 Jayden63 wrote:
What the hell is the Inquisition supposed to do now that there is a living Primarch back and extremely pissed off at that.

Well, Draigo will just carve some obscene insult on Russ liver or something, then. Making graffiti on Primarchs' organ is his favorite hobby .

 Jayden63 wrote:
The Wolves and all current First Founding chapters have fought vigilantly, tirelessly, and selflessly for 10,000 years trying to keep the IOM from destruction.

Do you mean that Dark Angels fought selflessly for the Imperium ?
.
The fact no first founding chapter fell to chaos as a whole does not mean that there has not been regularly marines from those chapters that fell. So, not really a good argument.

 Jayden63 wrote:
In GW fluff, […] Those 400 marines can and would kill trillions of guardsmen without blinking.

Or some Inquisitor will be able to best them in close combat and then his assistant will melta them into ashes. Comes from official fluff . Not even mentioning what Marbo would to do them…

 Jayden63 wrote:
All weapons save heavy ordnance just bounces off their armor, and even then that ordnance had better hit the guy on the head directly or there is still a good chance he will live.

Melta is not heavy ordnance, and it does not bounces off power armor. It vaporizes marines. Cyclonic torpedo are another solution too .

The fact no first founding chapter fell to chaos as a whole does not mean that there has not been regularly marines from those chapters that fell. So, not really a good argument.

Infact it's the defining story of Huron where he managed to claim quite a few Space Wolves as part of the Red Corsairs as they betrayed their allies, along with a fair number of equipment with the Wolf of Fenris.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Just for giggles thou, think about the consequences.

Your Inquisition virus bombs the population of Fenris. So yeah, now SW can't recruit anymore. Or they just Extermanatis Fenris as a whole. Now, what about the wolves that were not planet side. Every chapter has eyes and ears of their own, there is no way the Wolves would not be able to know how and why such actions happened.

The eyes-and-ears of the Wolves are mostly in the Fang, since it's a massive space-dock/manufacturing mountain/defense platform. Sure, there are people who love the Wolves across the Imperium... but these people don't work for the Inquisition, and would have no viable means of ever learning about what happened half a galaxy away. These people also do not outrank the Inquisition as a whole. Only the God-Emperor has that kind of authority.

So now the heads of the Great Companies that survived, do the unthinkable. They go to war against the Inquisition. And in truth, war is what Space Marines do best. How many inquisitors will sleep well at night knowing that some of the bravest most fierce warriors of all of man and a chapter known for big risk, bigger reward tactics are now gunning for them out of revenge. To hell with saving face, to hell with reputation and honor. Pure hatred and bloody revenge are the only thing on the minds of men bred, enhanced, and armed for war.

Woo. You've got... 500 dudes. Maybe fifteen ships, if we are to assume that every GC has its own Battle Barge and its two escort vessels. What are they going to do, attack Terra?

And why would any of the other chapters show loyalty to the Inquistion knowing that their own Gene seed is as flawed as those of the Sons of Russ? I dare say few would willfully help protect the Inquisition. Because its clear that the Inquisition has no loyalty to those who have faithfully served.

Because other Chapters haven't let Chaos-tainted people flee hither and yon into the Imperium to sow the seeds of Corruption, plain and simple. This is not "faithful service", this is the Wolves having not a single fething clue what they are talking about getting their panties in a twist because these humans, all of whom could be potentially carrying Chaos Taint, if not already a clever Daemonhost, were going to be executed for the greater good of the Imperium. This is treason and is in direct opposition to things that the Emperor is known to have stood against: The Knowledge that Chaos Exists.

At Armageddon, the Wolves betrayed both the Emperor and the trust that he placed in Russ.

How freekin scary is that?

Not very when you consider the number of Chapters the Inquisition have been known to eradicate in the various GW publications, not even counting the ones from other sources.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now lets take it up a notch. The warp being a fickle mistress and how linear time doesn't really exist there, there is also the prophecy. The one where Russ promises to return for the Wolftime. (Much like Ragnarok) its the time for the final battle. He will return when the SW are at their end.

Well, now some Inquisitor has brought the end, so out of the Warp comes Russ with his Chapter/legion whomever he took with him into the warp. What the hell is the Inquisition supposed to do now that there is a living Primarch back and extremely pissed off at that. Who by all accounts, and rightfully so, is not going to play nice because this is the Wolftime and failure means the destruction of everything.

When Russ finds out that his boys were letting potential Daemonhosts go flitting off to the far corners of the Imperium, potentially costing billions of human lives and souls (and instead requiring the Exterminatus of these worlds, which then only cost lives), basically being meat-headed barbarians rather than the cunning, strategic thinkers the Wolves are supposedly famed for being... pretty sure someone is getting spanked, and it isn't going to be the Inquisition.

The Inquisition knows about prophecy, sorcery, fortunetelling and what not. Sure it might be a billion to one chance that it might be true. But this is the Grim Dark. Billion to one (especially if its bad news for you) happen with surprising regularity. How many are really willing to take that risk? The last one that even thought of going against the wolves got his head chopped off for this troubles, and that wasn't even a drop in the bucket of what it would mean to bring about the Wolftime.

This also assumes that Russ does not come out of the Warp stark raving mad and frothing at the mouth with tentacles and a flaming skull head. I believe it was Lorgar who implied that Russ' current state is a fate worse than death. It also assumes that the destruction of Fenris is what counts as "the Wolf-Time". Lastly.... Russ only knows 1 of the current Space Wolves. Just one. And that one guy doesn't look anything like he did the last time Russ saw him. Russ might be disgusted by the current disportment of the Space Wolves, He will damn sure recognize the symbol of Malcador the Sigillite, though, and should remember that man was the Emperor's left hand... and should also remember that it was by edict of the Emperor that the Inquisition exists (whether or not the actual words spoken founding them came from the Emperor himself or Malcador, the latter spoke with the former's authority, and so, in the end, it does not matter.)

KorPhaeron77 wrote: The only way they would ever turn on the Wolves is if the Space Wolves directly did something that was inexcusable, and they had a very clear and just reason to kill them. If even the slightest empathy could be had for the SW cause then it would inevitably draw in outside factors.

You mean like allowing Chaos-tainted civilians to live and infect other Imperial Worlds, which causes daemons to manifest and Daemonhosts to run amok and open Warp Gates that stages a mini-Black Crusade on Ultramar or Rynn's World or something?

 Troike wrote:

Firstly, the Badab War was hardly a typical situation. The Space Marine Chapter in that case was in control of a whole system, and had the support of PDFs and other Marine Chapters. That's a whole other deal from purging a single Marine Chapter.

I don't think that was an unusual situation. First off you've got to consider that no Space Marine Chapter exists in an isolated political vacuum, they've got planetary leadership, Navy and Guard commanders, other Space Marines, Inquisitors, and the like who they may have bailed out in the past who may owe them favours, some may even have more formalized relationships. Second, remember the difficulty in long-range communication inherent in the Imperium; a Space Marine Chapter's allies are likely to be people nearby they work with frequently, while the Inquisitor can't exactly call up Terra to enforce his authority on a lark if the local Navy post commander doesn't think he's got enough to justify bombing Fenris. Third, you've got to have an Inquisitor who's actually motivated to stick his neck out to pull something like this; if he doesn't have enough backing (which he needs evidence of wrongdoing to get) his head is first on the chopping block when the Space Wolves come looking for someone to blame for a failed assault on their homeworld. Fourthly, Space Marines (with some exceptions) tend to stick together; if you go to Lord Dante and tell him "Hey, dude, I want to burn Fenris because the Space Wolves like their damn wolves too much," his first question is going to be "Okay, and when you're done with them how long is it going to take you to come bomb Baal because of our whole unstoppable blood rage thing?" He's got every incentive to fight alongside the Space Wolves and none to fight for your purge-happy Inquisitor. You're going to need something on the Chapter to convince the rest of the Imperium that blowing them all to hell is a preferable option, and "they've got wolf shrines! They ride wolves! They throw their initiates into combat with jump packs!" isn't going to cut it. Even when you've got all that, as was the case during the Badab War, it wasn't enough to convince the Astral Claws' allies since they trusted their friends more than they trusted the Inquisition and a war started over it.

Bottom line: The Imperium isn't a monolithic entity with clean and clear-cut rule of bizarrely draconian law in which you can slaughter a regiment of your army because they don't obey uniform regulations. It's more akin to the later-years Holy Roman Empire wherein the Electors (Inquisitors, planetary governors, Space Marine Chapter Masters, Navy admirals, Guard generals, and other figures of importance) pretty much run their own fiefdoms and the Emperor (in this case the Emperor) has very little central authority to make them do something they don't want to do unless there's an obvious external threat.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't think that was an unusual situation.

It really was. Huron had an entire sector under his direct command, and several close allies. Meanwhile, other Chapters have indeed been wiped out. If they're all so difficult, then why is the Badab war regarded as so exceptional?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
First off you've got to consider that no Space Marine Chapter exists in an isolated political vacuum, they've got planetary leadership, Navy and Guard commanders, other Space Marines, Inquisitors, and the like who they may have bailed out in the past who may owe them favours, some may even have more formalized relationships.

That's all well and good, butn if a Chapter screws up in some way, not all of those "friends" will be so supportive, and few would be willing to risk being branded traitors or heretics by aiding a Chapter against the Inquisition.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Second, remember the difficulty in long-range communication inherent in the Imperium; a Space Marine Chapter's allies are likely to be people nearby they work with frequently, while the Inquisitor can't exactly call up Terra to enforce his authority on a lark if the local Navy post commander doesn't think he's got enough to justify bombing Fenris.

The Inquisitior doesn't need to call Terra to ask for permission. He's an Inquisitor. If he suspects treachery, he has to ask. Again, the Imperium is not afraid to deal with traitorous Marines. The local forces, such as the Navy, would have to obey the Inquisitor anyway. That's one of the main powers of the Inquisition.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Third, you've got to have an Inquisitor who's actually motivated to stick his neck out to pull something like this; if he doesn't have enough backing (which he needs evidence of wrongdoing to get) his head is first on the chopping block when the Space Wolves come looking for someone to blame for a failed assault on their homeworld.

The Ecclesiarchy attacked the Fenrisian system for three weeks and the Wolves didn't try to tear down the Ecclesiarchy. Likewise, the Ecclesiarchy was able to do this and get away with it, and was able to act on suspicions and an attack on their people. The Wolves aren't that untouchable.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Fourthly, Space Marines (with some exceptions) tend to stick together

Nobody came to help them in the three weeks that the Sisters were attacking the Wolves right in their home turf. Single Marine Chapters have also been wiped out in the fluff. It's not a case of attacking one Chapter will suddenly result in other Chapters backing them up.

GK are a minor asset. The Inquisition can call upon the Imperial Navy and the IG to use whatever force is required to put the doggies down.

The Fang is strong, but not strong enought to defeat a battlefleet. After they lose, here comes exterminatus...

 AnomanderRake wrote:
if you go to Lord Dante and tell him "Hey, dude, I want to burn Fenris because the Space Wolves like their damn wolves too much," his first question is going to be "Okay, and when you're done with them how long is it going to take you to come bomb Baal because of our whole unstoppable blood rage thing?" He's got every incentive to fight alongside the Space Wolves and none to fight for your purge-happy Inquisitor.

Dante owes the Grey Knights a favor, they killed Ka'Bandha in a joint force with the Blood Angels. Dante was so happy to comply with the Grey Knights that he agreed for his entire force to be put to the extremely dangerous (sometimes fatal) memory wipe process when the deal was made. Not to mention the incident between the Space Wolves and Flesh Tearers. Or that Space Wolves actually considered attempting to kill Sanguinius (which speaks volumes about how low their IQs are). Sooooo I dunno about that whole Dante refusing situation.

You don't go to Dante and say that, you go to Dante and say, "Hey, the Space Wolves homeworld has fallen to the worship of deities that are not the God-Emperor, and are most likely Khornate daemon-princes and the like. We tried to send the Church in to investigate, but the Wolves would not let them land, shot up a bunch of Sisters, in fact, so we're pretty sure it's Daemon-Worship Central down there.

The GK are going in from the West, you come in from the East. In nominae Imperator."

And then you flash your rosette and walk the feth away, because you're a Lord Inquisitor and he's just the Chapter Master of a Space Marine Chapter. Vaunted and honored, to be sure, but he does not outrank you, and you just gave him damn compelling evidence (and entirely true evidence, at that) that something effed-up is going on with the Wolves.

 Mavlun wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
if you go to Lord Dante and tell him "Hey, dude, I want to burn Fenris because the Space Wolves like their damn wolves too much," his first question is going to be "Okay, and when you're done with them how long is it going to take you to come bomb Baal because of our whole unstoppable blood rage thing?" He's got every incentive to fight alongside the Space Wolves and none to fight for your purge-happy Inquisitor.

Dante owes the Grey Knights a favor, they killed Ka'Bandha in a joint force with the Blood Angels. Dante was so happy to comply with the Grey Knights that he agreed for his entire force to be put to the extremely dangerous (sometimes fatal) memory wipe process when the deal was made. Not to mention the incident between the Space Wolves and Flesh Tearers. Or that Space Wolves actually considered attempting to kill Sanguinius (which speaks volumes about how low their IQs are). Sooooo I dunno about that whole Dante refusing situation.

Dante owes nothing to the Grey Knights, they offered the Blood Angels a chance to participate out of respect not because they wanted him to pay them back some day. You're off a bit on the Space Wolves considering trying to kill Sanguinius as well. Its not as if they just decided to go after him themselves, Malcador ordered them to watch Sanguinius to see whether or not he would betray the Emperor. If they had decided that he had indeed betrayed the Imperium they would have tried to kill him, but then so would any squad from any other legion.

I agree with you that Dante would not refuse an order from an Inquisitor to attack the Wolves, just putting my two cents in at the same time.

 Frazzled wrote:
GK are a minor asset. The Inquisition can call upon the Imperial Navy and the IG to use whatever force is required to put the doggies down.

The Fang is strong, but not strong enought to defeat a battlefleet. After they lose, here comes exterminatus...

You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years. Before the entire situation was cleared up when a single Great Company broke the siege.

The only thing you said that makes any sence is "Here comes exterminatus" and even then it is unlikely to ever happen.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
GK are a minor asset. The Inquisition can call upon the Imperial Navy and the IG to use whatever force is required to put the doggies down.

The Fang is strong, but not strong enought to defeat a battlefleet. After they lose, here comes exterminatus...

You mean like how the Fang + support fleet scared off Battle Fleet Pacificus (Of Segmentum Pacificus) and held out against an IG siege for 3 years. Before the entire situation was cleared up when a single Great Company broke the siege.

The only thing you said that makes any sence is "Here comes exterminatus" and even then it is unlikely to ever happen.

Which battle was this?

I think it was when the Apostate Cardinal Bucharis laid siege to Fenris, thinking it was just another Imperial planet with no idea he was picking on the Space Wolves.

Oh him, he was defeated by the planet Chiros (Not a death world for note!), calling it an actual threat to SW is giving them far too much credit.

Any open fight will drag in the allies of both groups. The SW, while not having spent years building up to double chapter strength like the Astral Claws, do have other worlds nearby that they control or that owe them big time. I would assume most of the first founding chapters have 10,000 years of debts they can call in from hive worlds, forge worlds, etc. They also have special forces groups stationed on Terra, and allied chapters like the Raven Guard.

Plus, it isn't like an Inquisitor can just declare them traitors. If Inquisitor Bob shows up at the Cadian conclave and gives a big speech on "Oh the SW are all furries and must be destroyed!" most of the other inquisitors will just roll their eyes and one venerable one will take Bob aside for a stern talking too.

If Bob talks about how they opposed the GK purge, well half the other inquisitors may have also opposed it. It was of course a massive waste of lives and equipment, and directly the fault of the GK for letting the Changeling escape. Moreover the Wolves have been quite useful to the IOM, and are certainly more stable then the Space Sharks or Flesh Tearers. It would take major heresy to martial the resources to take down the wolves, so major it would advance the plot and thus won't happen.

You mean like when they didn't let Ecclesiarchy land, opened fire, killed an inquisitor and several GK, and had a war with the Inquisition?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh him, he was defeated by the planet Chiros (Not a death world for note!), calling it an actual threat to SW is giving them far too much credit.

It was during the "Plague of Disbelief". When Bucharis was building up forces to attack Terra. But then had his armies broken by the SWs. Then only defeated on Chiros because the traitors didn't use they most destructive weapons. In a attempt to not scar the planet.

Bucharis, controlled space from "Near" Bakka in Segmentum Tempestus, through Segmentum Pacificus (including that segmentum's battle fleet) , into Segmentum Obscurus as far as Fenris and finally into Segmentum Solar as far as Gathalamor. To consider him a small threat to anything is ridiculous.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh him, he was defeated by the planet Chiros (Not a death world for note!), calling it an actual threat to SW is giving them far too much credit.

It was during the "Plague of Disbelief". When Bucharis was building up forces to attack Terra. But then had his armies broken by the SWs. Then only defeated on Chiros because the traitors didn't use they most destructive weapons. In a attempt to not scar the planet.

Bucharis, controlled space from "Near" Bakka in Segmentum Tempestus, through Segmentum Pacificus (including that segmentum's battle fleet) , into Segmentum Obscurus as far as Fenris and finally into Segmentum Solar as far as Gathalamor. To consider him a small threat to anything is ridiculous.

His armies were defeated not by PDF, not by guard, but by the pristine paradise planets people posting potshots from the forests and the like. That's STILL giving them too much credit when their average soldier couldn't even beat that world as a result, the fact they needed orbital bombardment to win was ludicrous to begin with. His threat could've been great yes, but he was practically a jobber in 40k when you see how ineffective his campaign was aside from his naval capability.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Oh him, he was defeated by the planet Chiros (Not a death world for note!), calling it an actual threat to SW is giving them far too much credit.

It was during the "Plague of Disbelief". When Bucharis was building up forces to attack Terra. But then had his armies broken by the SWs. Then only defeated on Chiros because the traitors didn't use they most destructive weapons. In a attempt to not scar the planet.

Bucharis, controlled space from "Near" Bakka in Segmentum Tempestus, through Segmentum Pacificus (including that segmentum's battle fleet) , into Segmentum Obscurus as far as Fenris and finally into Segmentum Solar as far as Gathalamor. To consider him a small threat to anything is ridiculous.

His armies were defeated not by PDF, not by guard, but by the pristine paradise planets people posting potshots from the forests and the like. That's STILL giving them too much credit when their average soldier couldn't even beat that world as a result, the fact they needed orbital bombardment to win was ludicrous to begin with. His threat could've been great yes, but he was practically a jobber in 40k when you see how ineffective his campaign was aside from his naval capability.

So the British military must not have been a threat to anyone because they lost the US' revolutionary war. Who cares if they established a huge Empire and beat Napoleon.

You sir are grossly under estemating hunters/sharp shooter on their home turf. Especially when they are not engaging in pitched battles.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:he was practically a jobber in 40k when you see how ineffective his campaign was aside from his naval capability

Yes, after his armies where broken fighting the SWs. Before that he conqured a huge area of the Imperium.

 Stonerhino wrote:


You sir are grossly under estemating hunters/sharp shooter on their home turf. Especially when they are not engaging in pitched battles.

This. Look up the White Death some time.

The inquisition are stupid traitors.

Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they aren't.

They don't instantly explode in showers of blood to boltguns unlike Guardsmen, and can return firepower in the same category since they also have their own types of human bolters. That is probably why they are sent.

Guardsmen are sent against almost everything. That does not mean that IG is exceptionally good against almost everything. Slightly apples and oranges, but marines are rare and traitor chapters double so.

Do we actually have any sources younger than most of the playerbase that says just how good they actually are at it?

Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they aren't.

They don't instantly explode in showers of blood to boltguns unlike Guardsmen, and can return firepower in the same category since they also have their own types of human bolters. That is probably why they are sent.

Guardsmen are sent against almost everything. That does not mean that IG is exceptionally good against almost everything. Slightly apples and oranges, but marines are rare and traitor chapters double so.

Do we actually have any sources younger than most of the playerbase that says just how good they actually are at it?

Because if they manage to wipe out a chapter and lose six orders while doing so, then sure, they succeeded, but not necessarily efficiently.

Minotaurs were created because Sisters don't explicitly obey the Lords of Terra, they follow the Church and it's doctrines. The Minotaurs are their pet's who specialize specifically in killing marines because that's the best way of making sure they never get 'buddy buddy' brothers with the others, and because they can have a force ready to deal with SM.

I can only assume the Minotaurs were created because the Administratum wanted a force they could control directly, rather than having to play bs political games with the Ecclesiarchy.

As for sources younger than the playerbase, how about the most recent Codex: Adepta Sororitas? :p Although I guess it doesn't give numbers.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Sisters are often sent against traitor marines, but if they were the best way, why create the Minotaurs?

Because they serve two different organizations. The Sororitas are a militant part of the Ecclesiarchy, the Minotaurs answer to the High Lords of Terra.