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 Pacific wrote:
WHHHHHAATTTTTTTTTTTT??? Ah wait, I didn't see the winking emoticon..

For anyone new to wargames and Games Workshop in particular, take a look to see how current artwork pales into significance when compared to the ground-breaking splendour of the 80's and 90's

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/342983.page

Mark Gibbons. His leaving was really a loss for GW..

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
It's been a while - I got out somewhere in 2nd (I have a photocopied version of the starter set rules that came with orcs & Dark Millennium boxed set - that is 2nd, isn't it?), didn't get back in until the latest Necron release.

This is a photo of the "Cadians" I'm talking about...http://www.flickr.com/photos/118158058@N03/12650002744/. They're certainly plastic (30 in a set) - I think the minis were just called "Imperial Guard" back then.

Yes, Dark Millennium was 2nd Ed. And I see what you mean about those Guardsmen - the original plastic Guardsmen. At the time GW had them as the "Necromundan 8th", among other things (just 'generic Guard' really, much like plastic Guard are now). Cadians weren't really a thing until later on, but I can see how someone who took a long break could miss the distinction. Perfectly reasonable. Thank you for clarifying.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
You need to work on your analytical skills.

Nah I was mostly right. The timeline I based my conclusions on was correct based upon available information (plastic Cadians exist now and they're the only plastic Cadians to have ever existed). He just got them confused with the old Imperial Guard plastics (which were Necromundan 8th, or meant to be in the same way that most Guard armies are Cadians now even if they're not Cadians). He's clarified what he meant, and now it makes sense.

Actually the Necromundan 8th appear to have been a latter medley of the two regiments from that box: The painted minis on the back were from F Company of the Necromundan 9th, whilst the generic marking guide on the box was the Arcadian 5th (the example Guardsman being a member of the Arcadian Spider Cult - the Necromunda 8th seemingly being a fusion of these two regiments).

Always enjoyed Mark Gibbons' very polished artwork, but it was a little cartoony for the subject matter. YMMV of course.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nah I was mostly right. The timeline I based my conclusions on was correct based upon available information (plastic Cadians exist now and they're the only plastic Cadians to have ever existed). He just got them confused with the old Imperial Guard plastics (which were Necromundan 8th, or meant to be in the same way that most Guard armies are Cadians now even if they're not Cadians). He's clarified what he meant, and now it makes sense.

You were mostly good about the years stuff was made but completely off in your assumptions of the poster as I demonstrated.

And yes, he did end up pulling an M. Night Shyalamaladingdong style twist with the Rogue Trader Guard!

Great little review, really brought me back in time.
Possible to post up a few of the minature pics from the Codex, like of the set piece battles etc?

And we're back with the award-seeking Retro Review series!

In our last exciting chapter we learned about 5 regiments from 5 of the roughest, toughest, most dangerous worlds in the Imperium and how each one had its own special skills and abilities. The Tallarn are expert raiders, no one can match the Iron Discipline of the Iron Guard, and the Catachan... well on Catachan every plant, animal, insect and bit of pollen is COMPLETELY DEADLY and only the strong survive.



So now we're going into the rules and, naturally, we're going to see this reflected?

Right?

Right?

No.

Despite the over the top fluff all guard units have the same S3, T3 stats! A Catachan is no tougher, a Mordian no braver, a Tallarn no faster. Keep in mind this was 2nd edition when Commissars and Inquisitors had T4 S4, so improving the stat line was no unheard of. But the big 5 regiments may as well all be the Nerf Guard of Wimpia for all the rules writers care.

Later in the book there are vet skills to customize squads and that's where these things get filled out. You can treat your Catachans as green recruits with nothing or make them all infiltrators or sharpshooters or whatever. So it wasn't a total loss, and I suppose in some ways it's better (say if you like the Tallarn models, but want them to have Cadian-style rules) but I know for me it was a bit of a let down.

We also get a look at the abhumans and other units.



Ratling snipers are little changed up through today. Somehow space Hobbits remains in the game long after Space Dwarfs were deemed too silly.



And Space Ogres, who doesn't like Space Ogres?



Rough Riders got a remake from cowboys to Mongols. Which is a bit of a shame in the name is taken from an American Regiment led by Teddy Roosevelt during the Spanish American War. Boy, those models are so good, no wonder GW hasn't updated them in 20 years!



We also get our first new unit, the mighty Storm Troopers.

At the time they still only had the same 6+ save as guardsmen, but they did have 'hotshot lasers' that were about the same as bolters. They also have a nice, elegant bit of fluff. The hotshot powerpack is hard to maintain and takes special training. This has no effect on the game but explains why only Storm Troopers can get them.

One oddity about them though. As I mentioned GW had discontinued the plastic RT guardsmen and replaced them with metal. There were no plastic guardsmen for all of 2nd edition. But there were plastic Storm Troopers! Sometimes GW marketing makes no sense at all.



Psykers were much more important in 2nd edition than 3rd-5th. Psychic powers were their own phase when you stopped everything and played a card game to cast or dispel psychic powers. Wiping out enemy psykers while protecting your own could win a game. They also usually had super human stats. So IG psykers could have S4, T4 and I7, while the Catachans were down in S3 land...

A couple of options disappeared in this edition. Penal legions with their suicide bombers went away (probably for the best), beastmen were purged (but Ogryn stayed?), robots were deactivated (if you ever saw their rules you know why), conscripts/whiteshields got promoted, and everyone had to turn in their underbarrel grenade launchers with vortex grenades (darnit!).

So in all the IG lost a lot in this section but then we get to... TANKS!



The Leman Russ in art...



And disappointing reality.

Of course it would look a lot better if it was weathered a bit but I suspect GW had a policy of 'dumbing down' their paint jobs for rule books to keep new players from being intimidated. They certainly knew how to do weathering in RT days.

Anyway, this book saw the 'official' release of the Leman Russ, Chimera and Basilisk rules (along with their cousins the Demolisher, the Hell Hound and the Griffon).



They'd first shown up in Epic Space Marine in the waning days of 40k and (I think) had rules in either the 2nd edition box set or in WD soon after, but this was the first time they were in a rulebook. Originally the IG used Rhinos and Land Raiders as their vehicles (along with Imperial Marines, Chaos Marines, squats and Eldar Harlequins).

Game rules take a siginificant portion of the book. At the time there were no standard rules for indirect fire and so on so they had to be explained.

This is also the time the GW introduced the idea that IG need two guys to load and fire a heavy weapon (in RT they fired from the shoulder just like Marines). So that too some explaining. They did have an interesting special rule though, you could split off your heavy weapon team while the rest of the squad advanced. They could even get cover from the shield on their las cannons (but not other guns).

To simulate the fact that the IG have a lot more than what is on the board, they got a free preliminary bombardment, 1 ordinance pie plate per tank in the army. It's one of those ideas that's good on paper but can't be fun in a game.

"OK my off-board artillery strikes kill you during deployment. Care to play again?"

Allies were still a big part of 40k so they get a page including some interesting tidbits about unrealized plans for 40k 2nd edition.



So yes there was an Imperial Agent codex planned which probably became codex Sisters of Battle.



Why yes, I will take a Harlequin Solitare to back up my guardsmen, and a Wraithlord, thank you sir.

And most interesting of all...



Yes Virginia, there was a Squat Codex...
I like to imagine it's sealed in a lead vault somewhere until the world is ready for its awesomeness.

Special characters round out the army list. Some old stalwarts like Yarrick (who first popped up in RT days), Nork Dedddog and Lord Solar Macharus (who originally was known for his recklessness, not his planning) are here.





The Tallarn and Valhallans get their own specials, as do the Attilans and the ratlings???



No, seriously, Stumper Muckstart, ratling sniper. He could shoot a 5 credit coin out of the air blindfolded!



While Mogul Kamir could crush people with his cyber arm.

Surprisingly the Catachans and Cadians (the two star regiments these days) did not get special characters. The majesty of Sly Marbo would have to wait for another day.

And this guy...


Well I'd take back all the mean things I said about Codex Rambo if they made one of this guy!

And now we finish our trip down memory lane with a gallery of skull-encrusted commissars.











Thank you for reading and see you all at the next RETRO REVIEW!




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[quote=Jehan-reznor 580868 6562530 5ca86bcfb4f971bd364c2d1b2c508604.jpg


Do a retro review on the realm of chaos books now those were awesome.

Its nice to go through the old Codex books. My brother still has the vast majority of them and we still play 2nd Ed whenever we can. Thanks for bringing back the memories though!

I remember picking this up with my mate Matt and both of us sat on the bus excitedly flicking through our copies….Ahhhh, loads of nostalgic threads on Dakka these days….

Wow, this takes me back. I think I still have my 2nd Ed. Eldar Codex around here somewhere.

It occurs to me that I now have a scanner, so I could do this with some of my Codices. It'd be interesting to take a look at the monolithic "yellow book" Chaos Codex from 2nd Ed, assuming the Kid hasn't already done it.

 Azazelx wrote:
Mark Gibbons. His leaving was really a loss for GW..

Huge. Mega. Ultra-loss for GW.

He remains my fav artist that they've ever had.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
You were mostly good about the years stuff was made but completely off in your assumptions of the poster as I demonstrated.

Awesome. Have fun with that hair-splitting device you appear to be so fond of, whilst the rest of us drift back into nostalgia land.

I was always happy with this IG Codex. The rules reflected an average Guardsman.

For every harder than a Hobbit's foot Catachan there is a Nerf Guard of Wimpia who is S2, T2 and doesn't look as buff in a vest!

I think everybody wanted a model of Mark Gibbon's power fist Catachan rather than the one we actually got!

Have I read this thread before? Or am I mixing up rants?

Anyway, I started collecting Guard with this book, and nineteen years later, I still have a lot of that original army; the Cadian red company, blue platoon are hoary old veterans, while the Catachans and Praetorians are recent recruits to replace units that were transferred away on bring & buy tables over the years.

I've also noticed recently that those old Ratling models had more detail than I first thought; I never noticed that frogging on the front of their jackets before; I'll be painting mine in the colours of the 95th Rifles, I think.

Not sure what's unplayable about the rules - I never had any issues. I think you're looking at the preliminary bombardment rule through 6th edition eyes. At the time, one or two tanks was the norm, so the pre-game barrage wasn't too overwhelming. Especially since the thing scattered 2 - 10" and any model under the template but not under the central hole was only hit on a 4+. Mind you, the fact that comm-links (vox-casters for all the noobs ) let you roll each turn for an additional shot each helped.

Mark Gibbons ... I used to really like him, but over the years, I've decided that those unfairly-maligned John Blanche paintings do so much more to convey the tone of the 41st millennium.

How did Blanche keep his job next to other artist's work like this?!!

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
How did Blanche keep his job next to other artist's work like this?!!

Leaving aside the fact that it's a matter of taste, John Blanche's art does an excellent job of defining the atmosphere of the 41st Millenium. Have a good look and there is a lot of depth to his work.

Much of his art also served as concepts for miniatures and probably still does.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
How did Blanche keep his job next to other artist's work like this?!!

Because John Blanche is an artist that creates, while Mark Gibbons is an artist that recreates.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
How did Blanche keep his job next to other artist's work like this?!!

That guy hasn't given a damn in over a decade.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

I've also noticed recently that those old Ratling models had more detail than I first thought; I never noticed that frogging on the front of their jackets before; I'll be painting mine in the colours of the 95th Rifles, I think.

.

I always thought that that the 2nd Ed version of Ratlings had been inspired by the Sharpe TV adaptations that began in '93.

Personally, I cant stand John Blanches paint, scribble style, whatever it is... But thats just me and each to their own.

I absolutely loved the work Mark Gibbons did.

It's not retro, but one of my favourite artists doing work for GW is Adrian Smith, the stuff he did in the collected visions series was astounding.

This is making me go through all my old White dwarfs again.... just looked at wd128, from 1990, didnt know Brian May was a GW fan and recording with Crash & Burn on the warhammer record label

Happy days

Boy that old Yarrick picture looks so METAL

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Have I read this thread before? Or am I mixing up rants?



Not sure what's unplayable about the rules - I never had any issues.

You may have read this back in 2009 when I first did it. I'd love to do a new one, but I have twin girls now, I'm lucky I have time for this much posting.

I started with epic then moved to 2nd edition and hated it. HATED IT. We once spent a half hour just computing the scatter of the dozen or so blind grenades on the board. And every weapon having different range modifiers? Furgettabout it.

So I moved to a reader/occasional painter till 3rd came out.

alphaecho wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Ah! Fond memories I remember my fledgling Imperial Guard army hunkering down on overwatch against Space Wolves, while my Hellhound went and torched Ragnar and Ulrik the Slayer because they were standing together on one flank

That was the fun part. Reserves steaming in at any speed when you wanted them to.

The Supercharged engine wargear card on a Hellhound or Chimera led to many a Warp Spider squad being caught hence my hull heavy flamer Chimera being christened "Spider Burner" .

I loved this Codex and my Mordians, later Praetorians, were virtually unbeaten during this period (had some problems with Tyranids) so my experiences differ from some of the earlier posters.

1. Rough Rider Command Squads packed a punch.
2. Heavy Weapon Squads split into three teams made it harder for the squad to be wiped out. As for Slick Crew!!
3. Stumper Muckstart was available for cheap points and, if I remember right, he never gave away a VP when killed.

Howard A Treesong:

I assumed the use of metals was so that they could cover a multitude of warrior types so that the diverse Imperial Guard wouldn't always look like the original plastic 'standard' trooper from RT. At that stage it would have been very expensive to do multiple plastics types. As you say though, patchwork armies did look an eyesore. Although I did have a squad of each type as they were released, it was Mordians all the way once they were out.

My blog (link below) below has my Praetorians and Mordians arrayed in their finery and they do look better unified.

Yeah, this book definitely had some good stuff. Hardened Fighters RRs and Ogryns were tough in CC, and Sentinels with Assault Cannons (IIRC) could lay down some serious fire.


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 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Have I read this thread before? Or am I mixing up rants?



Not sure what's unplayable about the rules - I never had any issues.

You may have read this back in 2009 when I first did it. I'd love to do a new one, but I have twin girls now, I'm lucky I have time for this much posting.

I started with epic then moved to 2nd edition and hated it. HATED IT. We once spent a half hour just computing the scatter of the dozen or so blind grenades on the board. And every weapon having different range modifiers? Furgettabout it.

So I moved to a reader/occasional painter till 3rd came out.

I used lots of blind, even in tournament situations, and never had an issue. I could usually resolve them all in a minute or two. *shrug*. Of course, I made my own blind markers with the roll results printed on them, which sped things up considerably.

There was plenty of complexity in 2nd, but when CSM "armies" regularly had less than 20 models on the table, things kinda balanced out. I had loads of fun with 2nd edition.

 -DE- wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
How did Blanche keep his job next to other artist's work like this?!!

Because John Blanche is an artist that creates, while Mark Gibbons is an artist that recreates.

THat's it in a nutshell.

Blanche is a classically trained artist who, along with Jes Goodwin basically created the look of 40k, bringing all sorts of Roman, Medieval, Rennissance and other influences to it (along with more than his share of madness). While his style has gotten looser over the last 25 years he's the innovator and others are following along in his wake.

I find it hard to believe a "classically trained artist" can have such a horrible grasp of anatomy. Most of his artwork looks like he got bored and abandoned it halfway through then threw some paint over it and smeared it around.

So did impressionists and every other 20th century painter. Are their paintings without merit, too?

I understand that not everybody realizes 95% of his published works are fast and dirty concept pieces meant to invoke the abstract side of Warhammers and inspire other artists in the studio, but one should be able to tell he knows how to handle the brush even if one doesn't enjoy his particular style. I don't like Van Gogh, but I'd never state he was a poor painter! Hyper-realism and CG extravaganza aren't objective ends to aspire to!

 -DE- wrote:
So did impressionists and every other 20th century painter. Are their paintings without merit, too?

I understand that not everybody realizes 95% of his published works are fast and dirty concept pieces meant to invoke the abstract side of Warhammers and inspire other artists in the studio, but one should be able to tell he knows how to handle the brush even if one doesn't enjoy his particular style. I don't like Van Gogh, but I'd never state he was a poor painter! Hyper-realism and CG extravaganza aren't objective ends to aspire to!

Yeah, I think allowing some of their artists to 'cut loose' instead of producing highly polished clean artwork was one of the best decisions made during GW's early years. Ian Miller was another artist responsible for this sort of aesthetic in early Warhammer and 40k publications (even though he was more or less a freelancer, IIRC). Pieces like this

(Source: http://gothicpunk.tumblr.com)

demonstrate that whatever's happening in JB's art is pretty much an artistic choice and has nothing to do with a lack of training/skill.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A couple of options disappeared in this edition. Penal legions with their suicide bombers went away (probably for the best), beastmen were purged (but Ogryn stayed?), robots were deactivated (if you ever saw their rules you know why), conscripts/whiteshields got promoted, and everyone had to turn in their underbarrel grenade launchers with vortex grenades (darnit!).

I'm almost certain that the wargear card for aux. grenade launcher specified that you could only use frag or krak grenades (you had to choose which), and that is specifically prohibited more exotic grenades.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A couple of options disappeared in this edition. Penal legions with their suicide bombers went away (probably for the best), beastmen were purged (but Ogryn stayed?), robots were deactivated (if you ever saw their rules you know why), conscripts/whiteshields got promoted, and everyone had to turn in their underbarrel grenade launchers with vortex grenades (darnit!).

I'm almost certain that the wargear card for aux. grenade launcher specified that you could only use frag or krak grenades (you had to choose which), and that is specifically prohibited more exotic grenades.

That was the 2nd Ed wargear card. In Rogue Trader it could have possibly been more, shall we say, exotic!

Some of John Blanche's artwork I like, some I don't. I love his finished pieces, but the sketch-style ones that look unfinished generally just don't go it for me.

But, seriously, who doesn't think that this image wasn't worthy of two page spread it got in the BFG rulebook?


Or this one?


Yeah, I admit, I'm a Battlefleet Gothic whore.

I like John Blanche's work, aesthetically it has a grimy grittiness that seems to suit the gothic look of 40k. I can understand that some don't like it, but I think you get a very good feel for 40k and its inhabitants from his art. I particularly like his work in The Emperor's Will.

That said I love Dave Gallagher's work, a particular favourite piece is below, though poor resolution.

http://chamberart.net/archive/W/warhammer/dave.gallagher.genestealer.cult.jpg

Then there's this piece by Les Edwards, which while a very atypical Space Marine portrayal by today's standards, sums up a lot about how I feel about what Space Marines have lost. They've gone too much towards the invincible-space-monk depiction now (you rarely see any dead and dying in the art). Shooting rioters/criminals or crowd control isn't part of the modern grimdark.

http://www.lesedwards.com/galleries/vintage/confrontation-40k/1445

I cranked out the Catachan 82'd in this year and two. The codex was as good as you needed at the time. Rounded out the old Wolves and Eldar power creep to include a book that complimented the Ork book very well. The army of Sly worked pretty well at the time, of course there was the Vortex Grenade love in the air with the rest of the grenades being thrown and templates all over everyone.
Boom, roasted!

Great looking reread, that was a good one.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Some of John Blanche's artwork I like, some I don't. I love his finished pieces, but the sketch-style ones that look unfinished generally just don't go it for me.

But, seriously, who doesn't think that this image wasn't worthy of two page spread it got in the BFG rulebook?

Spoiler:

Or this one?

Spoiler:

Yeah, I admit, I'm a Battlefleet Gothic whore.

Join the club, we have a fan based development system

I have the BFG starter set, and no matter how many times i look at it, those pictures still give me a rush.