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 Bobthehero wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
The best example of plot armor in 40k is the Tau. Logically, such a small empire should have been wiped out by the Imperium by now. Except the Imperium, a galaxy spanning Empire, apparently decided it had to drop literally everything to fight the latest Black Crusade and so the Tau were spared annihilation because despite having 1000 SM chapters, hordes of IG, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Inquisition, the Imperium has to drop absolutely everything and pay attention to Abaddon's latest hissy fit... Anyone not involved can just stand around and wait till the plot gets to them.

And yes. ASoIF does exaggerate character deaths. Many characters die, but many of them are at best supporting cast. The main cast thus far has proven to be as resilient as any other.

Actually, its the SM, if they were to sustain the kind of casualties the Dark Angel sustained on Vraks (and that was to a glorified militia and some Alpha Legionnaires), they'd be long gone.

You mean the fluff doesn't add up? In 40K? The horror!

Welcome to one of the most defining parts of the setting, lols.

i don't think the Tau have plot armour as a race, They are quite decently explained as to why they are still around. Firstly the Tau are fighting as one, in a relatively small area of space, expanding outward. The Imperium is vast and very slow to react, but more importantly it's not just fighting the Black Crusades and the Tau, it has millions of worlds where rebellions can spring up, Necrons appearing all over the place, Eldar that can seemingly strike from nowhere, Hrud infestations, Ork Waaaghs, and the Hive fleets. If it devoted even a tenth of it's resources to the Tau then it would still be woefully undefended in other areas. Secondly the Tau are way out on the eastern fringe, so they aren't a worthy enough threat and are by far the lesser of two evils when compared to the nearby Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Take the British Empire in the 1700s, it was the biggest Empire in the world, no way should the whole empire have been defeated by a few rebelling colonies in the Americas. But of course, it wasn't just fighting them, the Empire was fighting back Napoleon, The Dutch Empire, The Spanish, keeping it's grip on colonies like India and generally trying to police the seas. they couldn't spare enough men to deal with this one "small" threat and by the time the other conflicts receded, the US was already too established and strong so it was easier to make diplomatic advances rather than risking everything trying to crush them again. The chance for a quick war against the Tau was lost when the Imperials were forced to concede worlds in the Damocles campaign.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
i don't think the Tau have plot armour as a race, They are quite decently explained as to why they are still around. Firstly the Tau are fighting as one, in a relatively small area of space, expanding outward. The Imperium is vast and very slow to react, but more importantly it's not just fighting the Black Crusades and the Tau, it has millions of worlds where rebellions can spring up, Necrons appearing all over the place, Eldar that can seemingly strike from nowhere, Hrud infestations, Ork Waaaghs, and the Hive fleets. If it devoted even a tenth of it's resources to the Tau then it would still be woefully undefended in other areas. Secondly the Tau are way out on the eastern fringe, so they aren't a worthy enough threat and are by far the lesser of two evils when compared to the nearby Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Take the British Empire in the 1700s, it was the biggest Empire in the world, no way should the whole empire have been defeated by a few rebelling colonies in the Americas. But of course, it wasn't just fighting them, the Empire was fighting back Napoleon, The Dutch Empire, The Spanish, keeping it's grip on colonies like India and generally trying to police the seas. they couldn't spare enough men to deal with this one "small" threat and by the time the other conflicts receded, the US was already too established and strong so it was easier to make diplomatic advances rather than risking everything trying to crush them again. The chance for a quick war against the Tau was lost when the Imperials were forced to concede worlds in the Damocles campaign.

Beautifully put, exalted ,

Hi All,

I can understand the notion of feeling slighted when your favourate faction is demeaned through poor authorship (blood of Asenheim was terrible) but surely we read 40K for the escapism and for these giant larger than life characters to face these dangerous situations. Is it the fact or their survival or the manner of their survival that makes it plot armour? If we ignored bad authoring would plot armour be diminished in any way or are all BL books automatically canon.

Once again, thank you for all the replies.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
i don't think the Tau have plot armour as a race, They are quite decently explained as to why they are still around. Firstly the Tau are fighting as one, in a relatively small area of space, expanding outward. The Imperium is vast and very slow to react, but more importantly it's not just fighting the Black Crusades and the Tau, it has millions of worlds where rebellions can spring up, Necrons appearing all over the place, Eldar that can seemingly strike from nowhere, Hrud infestations, Ork Waaaghs, and the Hive fleets. If it devoted even a tenth of it's resources to the Tau then it would still be woefully undefended in other areas. Secondly the Tau are way out on the eastern fringe, so they aren't a worthy enough threat and are by far the lesser of two evils when compared to the nearby Hive Fleet Leviathan.

Take the British Empire in the 1700s, it was the biggest Empire in the world, no way should the whole empire have been defeated by a few rebelling colonies in the Americas. But of course, it wasn't just fighting them, the Empire was fighting back Napoleon, The Dutch Empire, The Spanish, keeping it's grip on colonies like India and generally trying to police the seas. they couldn't spare enough men to deal with this one "small" threat and by the time the other conflicts receded, the US was already too established and strong so it was easier to make diplomatic advances rather than risking everything trying to crush them again. The chance for a quick war against the Tau was lost when the Imperials were forced to concede worlds in the Damocles campaign.

There is of course, the small matter of plenty of smaller alien "empires" still running around all over even 'main' imperial space. Mentions of them are all over the fluff, Taerallians and others for example. So again, it's not like the Tau are magic plot armored to survive, they're just the race that GW has built a codex around.

 zephoid wrote:

Laughed my arse of at that.

Thank you

As someone said earlier in the post, plot armour becomes bad writing when there is no explanation of why a character or faction survives. One of the most infuriating examples in an otherwise good novel was; in Know no Fear Kor Phaeron has Guilliman on the fence, but then instead of trying to kill him he has a rambling conversation with him instead, trying to turn a Primarch who has absolutely no reason what so ever to side with the Traitors as this point. Guilliman uses this distraction to recover and kick Kor's ass. Now obviously the Primarch of the Ultramarines couldn't die at Calth because it isn't canon, But there was no reason for the author to even present that situation in the first place. They could have just had Kor Phaeron kill a high ranking commander before Guilliman appears, or just have them fight but Guilliman win because he is stronger, not because his opponent got sloppy for no damned reason.

It comes up a lot in the Heresy, where authors are trying to have these tense climaxes but are hampered by the fact that we know certain characters cannot possibly die as they exist in 40k. I hated Lucius for it in the early novels, where he'd always get beat down but then narrowly escape death because he can't die until he has fallen to Slaanesh. It makes the reader feel patronised and becomes frustrating when it occurs regularly.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
As someone said earlier in the post, plot armour becomes bad writing when there is no explanation of why a character or faction survives. One of the most infuriating examples in an otherwise good novel was; in Know no Fear Kor Phaeron has Guilliman on the fence, but then instead of trying to kill him he has a rambling conversation with him instead, trying to turn a Primarch who has absolutely no reason what so ever to side with the Traitors as this point. Guilliman uses this distraction to recover and kick Kor's ass. Now obviously the Primarch of the Ultramarines couldn't die at Calth because it isn't canon, But there was no reason for the author to even present that situation in the first place. They could have just had Kor Phaeron kill a high ranking commander before Guilliman appears, or just have them fight but Guilliman win because he is stronger, not because his opponent got sloppy for no damned reason.

It comes up a lot in the Heresy, where authors are trying to have these tense climaxes but are hampered by the fact that we know certain characters cannot possibly die as they exist in 40k. I hated Lucius for it in the early novels, where he'd always get beat down but then narrowly escape death because he can't die until he has fallen to Slaanesh. It makes the reader feel patronised and becomes frustrating when it occurs regularly.

Actually it's pretty in Character for Kor Phaeron, he thought with the Athema he could turn guilliman to their side since it's power would amplify his words, he thought he could one up Erebus and turn another Primarch to their side, a very strong indicator of his pride against Erebus in the legion, the blade was designed to sap his sanity, and then as the ultimate prize he'd bring the ultimate revenge against them for their actions on Kur.

Even Guilliman himself told him that he was pretty damn stupid for trying to toy with a Primarch, but at the same time as said..Kor Phaeron is a very prideful sort, and a catch that good would have ranked him higher to the Word Bearers then Erebus, while it could be considered plot armor, at the same time it could be considered that Kor Phaeron thought he had a chance with his hubris and all...

Plot armor is kind of standard in fiction and isn't normally a problem. I mean, if they ever actually get off Gilligan's Island it would end the seres, am I right? So naturally when you see them about to get off the island you know it'll probably fail and they'll still be on the island.

Its not a problem most of the time. Main characters tend to carry a degree of immunity from harm by virtue of being the MC. Their death can end the story, either because fans are annoyed their protagonist bit the bullet or because he's the 'chosen one' or some such. So long as its plausible, however unlikely, it's not a problem. It beomes a problem when it reaches particularly outlandish levels.

A simple standard example is Percy Jackson. A prophesy says he saves the world. So, short of the prophecy being a lie, the plot protects him from not saving the world and if he dies he'll only die at the end of the story.

Compare to DS9, where at the Second Battle of Chin'Toka, the Dominion annihlates the allied fleet, thousands of Klingon, Romulan, and Star Fleet officers are helplessly floating in escape pods. The Dominion can just kill them all and win the war right there by wiping out the most capable leaders in the allied force (Sisko and Martok) and... The Female Changeling lets them all live so they can tell the tale, a completely bizarre decision that was out of character for her usual cut throat approach to everything. Of course, the main cast had plot armor, so she couldn't just kill them.

They actually did get off Gilligan's Island in the movie and back to mainstream society. Though they ended up on another island by the end.

On the Tau Plot Armour topic, another in-universe reason they're still around is because they aren't as aggressive as the Imperium's other enemies. The Imperium uses the Tau as a bulwark against worser threats that also can't be negotiated with like orks and tyrannids.

Speaking of Tau and Tyranids, they both have terrible plot armour.


"Oh no, the numberless alien race called the Tyranids has invaded our part of the galaxy. We are doomed, doomed I say!"

*One Year later*

"Phew, lucky for us we were able to force the Tyranids to evolve into uselessness, the Tau Empire is saved!"

And then there was that thing between Swarmlord and Calgar. Swarmlord cut off all of his limbs and then let him live? Why? Was Calgar going to shuffle over to the Swarmlord and chew off his ankles? Or is the Swarmlord actually like the predator in that he won't fight a 'armless target?

 welshhoppo wrote:
Speaking of Tau and Tyranids, they both have terrible plot armour.


"Oh no, the numberless alien race called the Tyranids has invaded our part of the galaxy. We are doomed, doomed I say!"

*One Year later*

"Phew, lucky for us we were able to force the Tyranids to evolve into uselessness, the Tau Empire is saved!"

And then there was that thing between Swarmlord and Calgar. Swarmlord cut off all of his limbs and then let him live? Why? Was Calgar going to shuffle over to the Swarmlord and chew off his ankles? Or is the Swarmlord actually like the predator in that he won't fight a 'armless target?

Actually that one was explained as other SM coming in to grab him and yank him out as they tried to distract it.

Or I'm remembering something else, either way a buncha SM died.

I might be remembering something else too.


But seriously, how in the Emperor's name was he able to inflict so much damage to Calgar and not kill him.


Then again, this is a man which one hit KO'd an avatar, there is something which doesn't have any plot armour.

 welshhoppo wrote:
I might be remembering something else too.


But seriously, how in the Emperor's name was he able to inflict so much damage to Calgar and not kill him.


Then again, this is a man which one hit KO'd an avatar, there is something which doesn't have any plot armour.

Well SM has tons of ways of surviving, they can even shut down their bodily processes with the Sus-an membrane, which is a form of suspended animation, where their wounds don't deteriorate worse but can't be healed till he is forced awake.

That scenario is not particularly Plot Armory, the SM have established fluff that allows their blood to clot almost instantly (which is not always a good thing, if you think about it... a minor nosebleed would be a complete annoyance...), and other such enhancements that him surviving such an encounter is plausible by the fluff of the setting.

 welshhoppo wrote:
I might be remembering something else too.


But seriously, how in the Emperor's name was he able to inflict so much damage to Calgar and not kill him.

Larraman cells prevent him bleeding out by making the wounds instantly clot over, sealing them.

Sus-an Membrane shuts his mind and bio-processes down so that he doesn't go into shock or suffer psychological damage.

The Sus-an coma also slows his body processes down to nigh undetectable levels, so the Swarmlord probably thought he had killed Calgar.

Nobody plays dead like a Space Marine, after all.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
I might be remembering something else too.


But seriously, how in the Emperor's name was he able to inflict so much damage to Calgar and not kill him.

Larraman cells prevent him bleeding out by making the wounds instantly clot over, sealing them.

Sus-an Membrane shuts his mind and bio-processes down so that he doesn't go into shock or suffer psychological damage.

The Sus-an coma also slows his body processes down to nigh undetectable levels, so the Swarmlord probably thought he had killed Calgar.

Nobody plays dead like a Space Marine, after all.

To the point that some don't even realize they are.

Huh, cool. That's a Godwyn De'az bolter. The barrel's far too long to be a standard Astartes Godwyn pattern.

I just started reading the 3rd Gaunt's Ghost Omnibus and I gotta say they have amazing plot armor. 12 Guardsman are able to kill 5 chaos space marines with literally a power sword, a long lasgun with a hot shot mag, a satchel of tube charges, and natives with like magentic crossbows with poison tipped bolts. Heck the characters themselves were shocked that they pulled it off.

All of these pierce PA without issues, the charges and pistol doubly so, the bolts were shot at a guy without a helmet

Also included in the mix are the 40 dudes with crossbows who are in their element

 Cptskillet wrote:
I just started reading the 3rd Gaunt's Ghost Omnibus and I gotta say they have amazing plot armor. 12 Guardsman are able to kill 5 chaos space marines with literally a power sword, a long lasgun with a hot shot mag, a satchel of tube charges, and natives with like magentic crossbows with poison tipped bolts. Heck the characters themselves were shocked that they pulled it off.

Yeah, agreed.

THrow enough krak grenades and hot-shot lasbolts (AP3?) at anything short of a predator and it'll go down. heh.

Yeah, see my post, there's no reason these weapons wouldn't take out SM's, add that the massive distraction the half naked dudes caused, and you can how the Ghosts won this.

But sure, claim its plot armor, god forbid the Imperial Guard manages to outdo the ''mighty'' SM, no no no no, we can't have that.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, see my post, there's no reason these weapons wouldn't take out SM's, add that the massive distraction the half naked dudes caused, and you can how the Ghosts won this.

But sure, claim its plot armor, god forbid the Imperial Guard manages to outdo the ''mighty'' SM, no no no no, we can't have that.

Except with Chaos Astartes especially (due to mutations galore), they should have tanked numerous shots, if not some been outright immune. There's canon feats for CSM's eating lasguns to their bear foreheads with no damage (and not just the one CSM that was cursed to be invincible by Chaos Undivided), and HH era armor tanking an unending barrage of heavy las weapons (possibly multilasers), harmlessly being absorbed by their armor, the worst effect simply scrambling their helmets. Mono-molecular won't guarantee it either, as PA is thick enough to even stop Eldar Shurikens. This isn't part of plot armor either- this often happens across the board, it's just a case of Astartes being that good against enemy weapons.

Although Khornates are a bit of a mixed bag, as either some are so nuts they don't even maintain their armor, or even charge in without wearing parts of their armor just to impress Khorne.

Hotshot punch through armor better than any weapons you mentionned.

Plasma don't give a gak, tube charge turns a SM to slag, and power sword, well depends on the skill of the user, but I think it was a special blade and Gaunt is pretty darn good

The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

Lolwut. That is ridiculous. Unless they were dabbling in Chaos, the only poisons capable of overwhelming Astartes are those Nurgle in nature.

And even then, the immune system can actually fight Nurgle's Rot to a biological war of attrition for over a week.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

Lolwut. That is ridiculous. Unless they were dabbling in Chaos, the only poisons capable of overwhelming Astartes are those Nurgle in nature.

And even then, the immune system can actually fight Nurgle's Rot to a biological war of attrition for over a week.

They are poison resistant, not immune. Considering Dark Eldar still can poison them, along with other factions and such, they aren't immune.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

Lolwut. That is ridiculous. Unless they were dabbling in Chaos, the only poisons capable of overwhelming Astartes are those Nurgle in nature.

And even then, the immune system can actually fight Nurgle's Rot to a biological war of attrition for over a week.

They are poison resistant, not immune. Considering Dark Eldar still can poison them, along with other factions and such, they aren't immune.

No, they're pretty much just immune. It's just diseases in Chaotic origin that are capable of punching through the defenses, and even then they're capable of fighting it. Nurgle's concoctions for example can easily debilitate, but even then they're capable of surviving and dragging out the microscopic fight for over a week, including Nurgle's Rot. They'll still lose in the end and either ask for suicide or finally cave to the daemonic disease, but they can survive the most potent disease in the universe. For poisons, they're straight up immune to those commonly used against humans, again, it's pretty much the stuff that's daemonic in origin that can threaten/kill them.

(I'd also point out that the DE are also on an on-again off-again relationship with Chaos.)

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The only Sueish thing about the Guard winning that encounter is the magical moth venom that's strong enough to overcome an Astartes' poison immunity.

Lolwut. That is ridiculous. Unless they were dabbling in Chaos, the only poisons capable of overwhelming Astartes are those Nurgle in nature.

And even then, the immune system can actually fight Nurgle's Rot to a biological war of attrition for over a week.

They are poison resistant, not immune. Considering Dark Eldar still can poison them, along with other factions and such, they aren't immune.

No, they're pretty much just immune. It's just diseases in Chaotic origin that are capable of punching through the defenses, and even then they're capable of fighting it. Nurgle's concoctions for example can easily debilitate, but even then they're capable of surviving and dragging out the microscopic fight for over a week, including Nurgle's Rot. They'll still lose in the end and either ask for suicide or finally cave to the daemonic disease, but they can survive the most potent disease in the universe. For poisons, they're straight up immune to those commonly used against humans, again, it's pretty much the stuff that's daemonic in origin that can threaten/kill them.

(I'd also point out that the DE are also on an on-again off-again relationship with Chaos.)

Because of Barbarus's toxic environment, the Death Guard took great pride in their resistance to poisons, disease, and mortality in general. This fascination led them to worship the Chaos God Nurgle and in return he infests their armour with pestilence and disease, and elevated Mortarion to a Daemon Prince.

Why would they take pride if Space Marines were entirely immune? Not to mention there's a gland that shuts them down to detoxify.

The organ is implanted within the new Astartes' abdominal cavity and it becomes a part of the Space Marines' excretory system, an emergency detoxification organ that allows a Space Marine to survive exposure through the respiration, tactile contact or ingestion of poisons, toxins and gases that are too powerful for even his rugged system to normally process without this organ's help. However, this detoxification process renders the Astartes unconscious once it begins, so it can be very dangerous if required during combat

Yes they are immune to things used against your everyday human..But there's tons of things in 40k that would kill a fully grown Xenos the size of a titan through its circular system, let alone what it would do to an astartes.

If they were 100% immune to EVERYTHING except chaos, they wouldn't apparently need to detoxify at all.