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 Polonius wrote:
Right now, I think a large chunk of the population is worried about being perceived as racist, but not overly concerned about actual racial issues.

That may be true (I don't think it is, however) but it doesn't really deal with the fact that actual racial issues are currently a problem in this country. Maybe you meant to distinguish between perception and reality there but your readership is clearly not following.

And I suppose we're going to have to get there at some point so, cross burning and lynch mob style racism isn't the only kind. Polonius does make a good point that there is a strong taboo around this kind of overt racism -- but that doesn't mean much about the continued patterns of racism that strongly characterize US society right now. Racism is much more a matter of presumption (both in terms of privilege and prejudice) carried out via micro-aggression or even micro-passive-aggression.

So, for example, the unspoken lyric to "Everyone's A Little Bit Racist" seems to be "and so being a little bit racist is justified." Here's one of the actual refrains:

"Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They're based on truth.
Don't take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!"

...

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

But trying to deny 'white privilege' doesn't exist... If people are being discriminated against because they are black, then that means 'someone else' is 'not being discriminated against' because they are 'not black'. Hence being society's default gives you a privileged existence. Denying that privilege exists is the same as denying the discrimination exists.

False. Absolutely false.

But, your arguments now makes sense.

-
Isn't being free from most discrimination a privilege?

Here's what I reject...

Just because I'm white... doesn't mean that I'm free from most discrimination.

Gather 'round... gotta some things to tell ya...

- I lived in California till I was about 3. During some of that time, my parents were poor and needed help feeding the family.
- We still joked about being "on government cheese", because one of the things you could get is "this brick of Cheese" that you can't buy, which was very similar to Velveeta.
- At 18 months old, I had spinal meningitis. It kicked my ass with high fevers and all that... was in coma for 6 weeks.
- Shortly after I recovered, it was discovered that my hearing was damaged. If the audiogram was even a smidgon worse, I'd be totally deaf. As such, I wear big, fething, powerful hear aids. I'm what audiologist coined "power junkie" because I simply need it to blast my ear. I don't need all that fancy-smancy digital crap.
- By 3, mum and dad divorced... mum/kids moved back to Missouri to live with our Grandparents.
- I never whet to the St. Louis Special School District and my mom believed (rightly so if I may add) that I should be integrated in a normal class room. (thus, I never learned sign language)
- As you can imagine... growing up as the only deaf kid in the classroom was... well, you know... kids are vicious.
- By Jr. High, it was worse... I was fighting all the time. (my dad had an epic confrontation with the princple... but, that story is for another time)
- My mom then registered me in a Magnet School in St. Louis City. Evidently, I was smart enough.
- Yes, I road the cab to school every day... part of the desegregation program. (white kid going to predominately black school)
- More than half of the student population were black, and we ALL got a long. (albeit it's a very small school)
- However, this was in the city in which many of my black friends lived in. The would ALWAYS escort me around the neighborhood. Why? Because I would be targetted because I'm white. I didn't wig out... I didn't rail against this... that's the way things were/are.
- Went to College... had to take loans to cover it. I wasn't black enough, or poor enough to qualify.
- I'll be paying my school loans for the next 24 year. ($492/ mo)

- I've had serveral discussions regarding white privilege on this forum (Ragnar, Mancu, Azazel, dogma, among others)...

Do I live in "Hearing Privilege" society and as such, should I be railing against that?

I did the same when I saw the pic of Obama and Michelle with a photochop hand holding a banana towards them. All I can think on it was "Ceasar"!

 Frazzled wrote:

But to your point, I do think it's a very strong sign of racism to argue that racism isn't a problem.

The only person who posted that on the thread so far, is you.

Oh okay. Could you explain what you meant by this then:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
First of all... 'White privilege' exists... same thing with 'Male privilege'. To deny it, perpetuates it.

Exactly. If the conversation doesn't begin here then we're wasting time.

Then we're wasting time. White/black issues are from 70 years ago. The nation has moved on. We're a true mongrol nation (to use the word from another thread but in its correct context). Also I should note, its not White privilege, its rich privilege.

And how about this?

 Frazzled wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I'm thinking the guys celebrating the genetic and cultural hybridization of the USA are not the ones being a troll...

Is that what you call denying the existence of white privilege and male privilege in the US?

How McCarthylike like of you. " Are you now or have you ever been a member of Racist Party?"

I remember govenment cheese. I swear that stuff would survive a nuclear attack.

Didn't they test it and it actually did survive a nuclear attack?

Ever wonder how the berms in New Orleans was "plugged" fast by Chinooks sling loads?

Keep it on-topic, please.

What did I mean by this:

Then we're wasting time. White/black issues are from 70 years ago. The nation has moved on. We're a true mongrol nation (to use the word from another thread but in its correct context). Also I should note, its not White privilege, its rich privilege.

I thought it was self evident. Maybe where you live its black/white. Where I live in Houston it’s a melange of Browns, with “black” and “white” each as a minority. Where I live in Austin its more of a mix, with a lot of Indians and Asians.

Is there racism? Sure. Tribalism? Sure. Classism? Sure. The human race is like Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States. But isn’t that the point of that preachy rabbi? Its going to take a while and a lot of effort.

How McCarthylike like of you. " Are you now or have you ever been a member of Racist Party?"

That’s for you and accusing others of trolling because they don’t agree with you.


Oh and one more thing, Veritch inferior, Zentraedi female power armor superior!

This is the last battle, for BreeTai…

 Frazzled wrote:
Is there racism? Sure.

So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?

 Polonius wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thank you kindly Frazzled *bows*

Polonius - I think the best place to start would be to educate *IN SCHOOLS* that race ISN'T A REAL THING.

Don't ever confuse "socially constructed" with not real.

Indeed. Milions of lawyers and accountants are quaking at the thought.

 whembly wrote:

Do I live in "Hearing Privilege" society and as such, should I be railing against that?

Plenty of people do. Literally typing "hearing privilege" into Google spits out a ton of examples, including this one:
http://thesedeafeyes.tumblr.com/post/25532311107/examples-of-hearing-privilege

Privilege is just like any other advantage. Some people have more then others. Sometimes the prom king is also a straight A student and the Quarterback. Sometimes kids are dumb, anti-social, and uncoordinated. Life isn't fair in that regard.

But you point out a really good example of how privilege works. In your case, you've gotten through despite being disadvanged. But wouldn't your life be easier if you didn't face those obstacles?

And, even more on point, do you think your life would be better or worse if you were black instead of white?

1. Things are never a bad as the media (net included) make them seem.

2. Things like this seem to go through cycles, usually when bigger problems are exasperating things.

3. Racism still exists, and probably will forever. Tribalism originally served an evolutionary purpose. Now it's a malfunction in the human brain ironically keeping us from our full potential.

4. I consider judging someone by the color of their skin rather than the content of their character to be a true crime against humanity. I.e., anyone who uses the phrase "check your privilege" unironically needs a mental high colonic.

 Frazzled wrote:
I remember govenment cheese. I swear that stuff would survive a nuclear attack.

We grew up poor. My grandma used to make amazing soup out of that and stewed tomatoes. I miss real government cheese.

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Is there racism? Sure.

So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?

If white male privilege exists why do so few people take advantage of it? I'd be really more concerned about Asian Male privilege since they are currently out earning the very privileged white males year after year. Can you honestly name a single industry or profession that actively discourages non-whites from joining its workforce?

(slightly sarcastic)

What I'm going to post goes beyond "white privilege" but I don't know how a young, white, somewhat healthy, middle-class, male living in Canada free from physical disabilities (the only thing I have going against me is I'm a little short and I may have some mental disabilities or some

mystery disease but I haven't ever been diagnosed so who knows) like myself when looking at the rest of the world (globally) does not have thoughts about how much better they have it and how it's purely chance you're born into that type of status.

 whembly wrote:


Do I live in "Hearing Privilege" society and as such, should I be railing against that?

You would be correct that society is built for 'abled bodied' people as the default and that things are much harder for people with any form of handicap. To deny that handicapped people have issues, less opportunities, artificial barriers and are not discriminated against is a problem.

And non-handicapped people may not be overtly discriminatory against the handicapped, but by not having to face any of the institutional adversary because the system is set to function 'correctly' for them means it is 'out of sight'. To then claim it doesn't exist helps perpetuate it.

There are a lot of issues in the hearing-impaired community, especially around schools and education. The statistics are if a hearing-impaired child is not on grade level by 4th grade, they are forever going to be behind and have limited productivity their entire life. One of the big issues is it is actually CHEAPER for schools to pay for corrective surgery or implants for kindergartners and mainstream them than accommodate sign language. Of course there are people who believe in a 'deaf culture' which means those kids then need extra education and in-class accommodations in order to succeed, but studies show those actions can cause harm to children and put them farther behind further in life.

But those are things that you had to experience which I did not. My life was easier, I had more opportunities which were closed to you and those add up, especially generation over generation. To deny those advantages exist or that I use them daily trivializes or attempts to eradicate your experience even if I am not directly discriminatory to you is still not a good thing.

Even in today's world... Are you telling me if you went to a job interview which you were perfectly qualified for and possibly more qualified for than other people, but the job had issues (like conference calls with clients, meetings via voice and so on) all of which could be overcome or realistically would be minimum impact to you actually performing your duties, you don't think that a employer might simply say "Ugh, I don't want to deal with TTY machines or explaining to our clients about our deaf employee. Candidate 2 is slightly less qualified or about the same, but has no issue... I can hire him without appearing discriminatory".

Now multiply that across thousands of people all over the world and across generations, and you have an institutional issue which is keeping whole groups of people down. To deny it, perpetuates it, and it takes generations of understanding and institutional change. It sucks, but frankly it takes not just tolerance, but old people dying off and true acceptance in the next generation. Now compare that to race relations, the gap is wider, generational and more ingrained into society. Your personal experience with being white in a high minority area doesn't invalidate the the wide-spread issues. And the simple fact that if someone snapped your fingers and moved you to another place on the planet and a large number of your 'issues' would have been instantly resolved for no other reason but the color of your skin shows there is an issue.

(FYI: My company does work for NIDCD, the NIH institude for Deafness and Communication disorders so I will say for a fact we all live in a 'hearing privilege' world. I think the disparity is much less because even the worst discriminatory person doesn't feel deaf people are subhuman animals, but there is a divide and it does impact the hearing impaired negatively)

 Cheesecat wrote:
What I'm going to post goes beyond "white privilege" but I don't know how a young, white, middle-class, male living in Canada (the only thing I have going against me is I'm a little short) like myself when looking at the rest of the world (globally) does not have thoughts about how much better

they have it and how it's purely chance you're born into that type of status.

I would expand that to being born any race/ethnicity or gender into a middle or upper class family in the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and select European countries has a significant advantage over the rest of the world. You can include South Korea, Japan, and possibly China as well into that mix, but in those cases it is specifically only Asians that benefit and males have an advantage over women.

If you were to say there is a rich privilege I could wholeheartedly agree with that, but the existence of a white male privilege would suggest that a white male born into a poor family somehow has advantages over a nonwhite male born into a middle or upper class family. That is ludicrous.

We grew up poor. My grandma used to make amazing soup out of that and stewed tomatoes. I miss real government cheese.

Not me. It wasn't bad cheese. I just ate too much of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Is there racism? Sure.

So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?

Of course not.
I would say any serious discussion would start with the premise there is racism everywhere, including the USA.
EDIT: and since US America is BEST America how can we help reduce that...

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?

Of course not.

So do you accept that white (and male) privilege currently exist in the US?

I would be eagerly interested in a hearty discussion made surrounding the concepts of bootstrapping and white privilege.

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So would you agree that any serious discussion about racism (and sexism) in the US requires acceptance that white (and male) privilege exists?

Of course not.

So do you accept that white (and male) privilege currently exist in the US?

I accept that there is racism and sexism in the US.

But since I'm being harangued about it I will prove Polonius' point and opt out of the discussion further.

 Polonius wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Do I live in "Hearing Privilege" society and as such, should I be railing against that?

Plenty of people do. Literally typing "hearing privilege" into Google spits out a ton of examples, including this one:
http://thesedeafeyes.tumblr.com/post/25532311107/examples-of-hearing-privilege

You see.... that's just dumb imo.

*shrugs*

People will always find something... jeeze.

Privilege is just like any other advantage. Some people have more then others. Sometimes the prom king is also a straight A student and the Quarterback. Sometimes kids are dumb, anti-social, and uncoordinated. Life isn't fair in that regard.

What I highlighted is something I truly believe is missing in these sorts of discussions.

But you point out a really good example of how privilege works. In your case, you've gotten through despite being disadvanged. But wouldn't your life be easier if you didn't face those obstacles?

Sure it'll be easier... but, I'm dealt with certain cards in my life and I've learned to deal with them on my own. I don't begrudge anyone who has it easier or harder in life. I think that's an awful way to live *obsessing* about other people that way...

And, even more on point, do you think your life would be better or worse if you were black instead of white?

How would I know? Unless I do some projection on what it's like being black...

 Frazzled wrote:
since I'm being harangued about it

Based on years of discussing this with you on Dakka and seeing the kind of stuff you post, I have a pretty solid guess as to what you think. But to avoid misrepresenting you, I am trying to get you to flat out state your thoughts on white and male privilege. It's not my fault that doing so, and cutting through off-topic wiener dogs and government cheese comments, is like pulling teeth.

 whembly wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Life isn't fair in that regard.

What I highlighted is something I truly believe is missing in these sorts of discussions.

It's not missing at all. White privilege isn't fair. But it's not some kind of natural condition or physical law, if that's what you mean. It's a system of oppressing some people for the benefit of others. It's a pretty complicated system and the people who benefit from it have every incentive to pretend it doesn't exist.

nkelsch wrote:

 whembly wrote:


Do I live in "Hearing Privilege" society and as such, should I be railing against that?

You would be correct that society is built for 'abled bodied' people as the default and that things are much harder for people with any form of handicap. To deny that handicapped people have issues, less opportunities, artificial barriers and are not discriminated against is a problem.

You see, here's the distinction...

As evident by your passionate discussion about this, you care about this subject matter.

Me? I don't care that "society is built for 'abled bodied' people as the default and that things are much harder for people with any form of handicap". Because that's a "view point" one can have about *life* in general.

I acknowledge that some things are more difficult for me than others. But, so what? I've learned to deal with it. I take it MY responsibility to adapt/overcome my own deficiencies... if I can't hear you, I'll ask you nicely to repeat yourself or ask you to yell at me.

EVERYONE has some sort of disadvantage in life. Yes, some more than others.... again, that's life.

And non-handicapped people may not be overtly discriminatory against the handicapped, but by not having to face any of the institutional adversary because the system is set to function 'correctly' for them means it is 'out of sight'. To then claim it doesn't exist helps perpetuate it.

I don't buy that viewpoint... sorry.

There are a lot of issues in the hearing-impaired community, especially around schools and education. The statistics are if a hearing-impaired child is not on grade level by 4th grade, they are forever going to be behind and have limited productivity their entire life. One of the big issues is it is actually CHEAPER for schools to pay for corrective surgery or implants for kindergartners and mainstream them than accommodate sign language. Of course there are people who believe in a 'deaf culture' which means those kids then need extra education and in-class accommodations in order to succeed, but studies show those actions can cause harm to children and put them farther behind further in life.

I'm well aware of those challenges...

But those are things that you had to experience which I did not. My life was easier, I had more opportunities which were closed to you and those add up, especially generation over generation. To deny those advantages exist or that I use them daily trivializes or attempts to eradicate your experience even if I am not directly discriminatory to you is still not a good thing.

What?

Just so that you know... imo, that's one hella spin to justify the arguments for "blank"-privilege and that it also came across condescending.

Even in today's world... Are you telling me if you went to a job interview which you were perfectly qualified for and possibly more qualified for than other people, but the job had issues (like conference calls with clients, meetings via voice and so on) all of which could be overcome or realistically would be minimum impact to you actually performing your duties, you don't think that a employer might simply say "Ugh, I don't want to deal with TTY machines or explaining to our clients about our deaf employee. Candidate 2 is slightly less qualified or about the same, but has no issue... I can hire him without appearing discriminatory".

Yep. I was discriminated out a few jobs.

Did I rail against "The Man" because if this? No... I just dealt with it by mentally saying "Your loss dude" and I moved on.

Now multiply that across thousands of people all over the world and across generations, and you have an institutional issue which is keeping whole groups of people down. To deny it, perpetuates it, and it takes generations of understanding and institutional change. It sucks, but frankly it takes not just tolerance, but old people dying off and true acceptance in the next generation. Now compare that to race relations, the gap is wider, generational and more ingrained into society. Your personal experience with being white in a high minority area doesn't invalidate the the wide-spread issues. And the simple fact that if someone snapped your fingers and moved you to another place on the planet and a large number of your 'issues' would have been instantly resolved for no other reason but the color of your skin shows there is an issue.

First of all, I'm not discounting racism. They exists and will ALWAYS exists because there's seem to be a finite amount of donkey-caves needed in society.

What I'm challenging is the whole mindset that legitimizes white privilege, hearing privilege, MALE privilege...etc...

Life is much more complicated to encapsulate these into these privilege "categories".

(FYI: My company does work for NIDCD, the NIH institude for Deafness and Communication disorders so I will say for a fact we all live in a 'hearing privilege' world. I think the disparity is much less because even the worst discriminatory person doesn't feel deaf people are subhuman animals, but there is a divide and it does impact the hearing impaired negatively)

Here's a secret. I don't view this impact as being "negative"... only that it's different.

It's a very discrete distinction.

Know what I mean?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Life isn't fair in that regard.

What I highlighted is something I truly believe is missing in these sorts of discussions.

It's not missing at all.

That's your opinion...

White privilege isn't fair. But it's not some kind of natural condition or physical law, if that's what you mean. It's a system of oppressing some people for the benefit of others. It's a pretty complicated system and the people who benefit from it have every incentive to pretend it doesn't exist.

O.o

So... we shouldn't ignore the man behind the curtains?

Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
since I'm being harangued about it

Based on years of discussing this with you on Dakka and seeing the kind of stuff you post, I have a pretty solid guess as to what you think. But to avoid misrepresenting you, I am trying to get you to flat out state your thoughts on white and male privilege. It's not my fault that doing so, and cutting through off-topic wiener dogs and government cheese comments, is like pulling teeth.

 whembly wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Life isn't fair in that regard.

What I highlighted is something I truly believe is missing in these sorts of discussions.

It's not missing at all. White privilege isn't fair. But it's not some kind of natural condition or physical law, if that's what you mean. It's a system of oppressing some people for the benefit of others. It's a pretty complicated system and the people who benefit from it have every incentive to pretend it doesn't exist.

Cue the conspiracy music. Where is the evidence of there being an actual system in place instead of any perceived white privilege being the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy. Can you honestly say that a while male born in a middle class environment somehow has a distinct advantage over a nonwhite male or female (of any ethnicity) in the same environment? I don't believe that for a second. I think you are reading signals in the noise that don't exist.

Just because people adapt and overcome doesn't mean that it makes it less unfair or that it shouldn't be addressed. You seem to think because you chose to overcome and not complain that nothing should be done to address the institutional issues which will continue to put those barriers in front of future generations?

The first step to removing those barriers and addressing the situation is to admit the inequity exists, and those who have the advantage in the inequity change their behavior to not perpetuate the inequity or to combat it when they see it. Expecting the people who the system is designed to interfere with to simply 'figure it out' or 'rise above it' doesn't solve the problem.

And you don't see 'Being passed over for a job explicitly because your hearing but you can't prove it because proving discrimination is expensive, hard to prove and costs money only available to those are already at the 'top' as 'negative' then I don't know what to tell you. Being Deaf is not negative, the way society throws barriers in your way to make your life harder because you are not the 'default' is a negative. Sure you can overcome discrimination, you are forced to... doesn't mean it is ok or should be accepted. (or pretend it doesn't exist)

With all things equal, middle class white males actually have less avenues for college scholarships than middle class females or minorities....

So there's that....

 cincydooley wrote:
With all things equal, middle class white males actually have less avenues for college scholarships than middle class females or minorities....

So there's that....

Maybe they should just try harder. I mean, I got a scholarship, so that shows that there's no real problems there. [/sarcasm]

Does anybody know what ratio of scholarship money is keyed to minority status? I know a lot of the special interest stuff is, but that's usually small potatoes compared to what schools give.

 trexmeyer wrote:
Can you honestly say that a while male born in a middle class environment somehow has a distinct advantage over a nonwhite male or female (of any ethnicity) in the same environment? I don't believe that for a second. I think you are reading signals in the noise that don't exist.

I am sure all the middle-class women and minorities who have the same experience and education but make less and have lower titles than their white male counterparts take great comfort in your statements which basically tell them that there is nothing 'institutional' preventing them from being treated equally.

 Manchu wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Right now, I think a large chunk of the population is worried about being perceived as racist, but not overly concerned about actual racial issues.

That may be true (I don't think it is, however) but it doesn't really deal with the fact that actual racial issues are currently a problem in this country. Maybe you meant to distinguish between perception and reality there but your readership is clearly not following.

Yeah, i guess I meant that for most people, "racial awareness" is more about how not to get caught saying or doing something racist, not how to actually be tolerant or progressive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 trexmeyer wrote:

Cue the conspiracy music. Where is the evidence of there being an actual system in place instead of any perceived white privilege being the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy. Can you honestly say that a while male born in a middle class environment somehow has a distinct advantage over a nonwhite male or female (of any ethnicity) in the same environment? I don't believe that for a second. I think you are reading signals in the noise that don't exist.

I'm actually not sure. I don't know if we really have generational studies that filter out class advantage. I'd wager that middle class black men still disproportionately go to prison, but I could be wrong there.

Still, getting into the middle class is far more likely for white (and asian) men then black or latino. I mean, "the lingering remnant of centuries of WASP male domination of American politics and economy" are still white privilege.

Don't confuse privilege with organized discrimination. It's usually relatively benign, incremental stuff. The size of an inheritance, the likelihood of being a legacy at a good college, having job opportunities because your family knows a business owner, that kind of thing.