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 herpguy wrote:
There are too many people recommending tarpits. Those won't work. You can't spread out in combat and D3 small blasts placed anywhere around it will destroy your troops. The S6 AP4 hits will be bad enough but if a 6 is rolled for the stomp EVERYTHING UNDER IT IS REMOVED FROM PLAY. No pass, no go, do not collect $200. If you assault it with something you better make sure said assaulter has a pretty good chance of killing it outright before the I1 step.

Ever thought of stringing a large cheap unit out into a line 20" long before assault to limit casualties?

The stomps occur at Initiative Step 1, so you will have had to consolidate into nice, meaty blobs by the time the Stomps come out. In addition, the stomps can move forward into the mass, as long as the stomp is within 3" of the preceding stomp.

EDIT: nevermind.

Knights are seriously not that hard to take out with ranged AT. Point per HP they are worse off compared to most battle tanks of similar AV, somewhat mitigated by super heavy status.

And quit making such a big deal out of the shield! Unless you only play against really bad players you should be used to having opponents rolling cover saves on their vehicles. A 4++ is no different!

Your traditional lascannons and lance weapons will do fine! If anything Knights may force many players away from S6/7 spam and back to high S AT, given that Knights can be fielded by anyone.

I have a hard time finding a way of dealing with one, let alone multiple knights. This looks like a vehicle that is really tough to take down with gauss spam alone (54-108 shots depending on the shielding, probably right in between). Stormtek drops coupled with warriors as well as doom scythes seem like the likeliest measure to bring down a knight, coupled with the fact that those are good units in more than one way.

Several units working in concert could do the trick. But if you face two Knights, the effort wil be four-fold by the Lanchester square law.

Hm, anyone used daemons against them yet? While sure I can stay in the air and vector strike all day I'm pretty sure that will either not kill them or let them live long enough to get to my troops.

Belakor + Puppet Master is a suggestion I've seen elsewhere.

 arinnoor wrote:
Hm, anyone used daemons against them yet? While sure I can stay in the air and vector strike all day I'm pretty sure that will either not kill them or let them live long enough to get to my troops.

How about Daemonettes? Their rending could take one Knight with ease. But Daemonettes are too slow and may not get him into cc.
However, fast moving Daemons could do it. But the stomp phase could do some serious damage.
Moreover, if I'd ran a Knight, I would ran two of them making it even harder to cope with them.

That is what I'm worried about. An army of knights doesn't sound like fun is I'm using non-allied daemons.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 arinnoor wrote:
Hm, anyone used daemons against them yet? While sure I can stay in the air and vector strike all day I'm pretty sure that will either not kill them or let them live long enough to get to my troops.

How about Daemonettes? Their rending could take one Knight with ease. But Daemonettes are too slow and may not get him into cc.
However, fast moving Daemons could do it. But the stomp phase could do some serious damage.
Moreover, if I'd ran a Knight, I would ran two of them making it even harder to cope with them.

Daemonettes will never ever be able to touch a Knight. CC attacks go against their front armor since they are walkers.

Plus the problems with daemons is that they have to kill one in CC, and the only things in the codex capable of doing that are Greater Daemons, DPs, and Soul Grinders. The latter will probably never be able to strike, doesn't have enough attacks, and can also be auto exploded by the stomp on a 2+. The other big dudes suffer from the problem of being very expensive and unlikely to even do the trick. Even if they do do it they can easily get insta-gibbed by the ensuing blast.

Could be fun dropping a ring of plaguebearers around one, ideally with a bit of cover.

Unless their weapons at range have Ignore Cover, they aren't going to take out that many plagueies, and if you can drop the hoop over them (icons good!) they have no-where to go as they can't go over your models as far as i'm aware.

Plagues can then get their rust on. Sure, they'll lose some to stomps and D, but they'll still make a dent.

Of course you do still need to be able to isolate the git from whatever else is on their side....

 Ascalam wrote:
Could be fun dropping a ring of plaguebearers around one, ideally with a bit of cover.

Unless their weapons at range have Ignore Cover, they aren't going to take out that many plagueies, and if you can drop the hoop over them (icons good!) they have no-where to go as they can't go over your models as far as i'm aware.

Plagues can then get their rust on. Sure, they'll lose some to stomps and D, but they'll still make a dent.

Of course you do still need to be able to isolate the git from whatever else is on their side....

The problem is twofold: 1. Plaguebearers aren't really a good all-combers choice 2. In combat I'm sure you'll start losing a lot more to daemonic instability tests than stomps and CC attacks.

AS might be the army that has the least problems taking these things down. Even a TaC list will sport at least one unit of doms with 4-5 meltas and probably a couple of exorcists... not to mention there will likely be even more melta riding around on/in transports.

That's a lot of S8 AP1, and it has a lot of reach thanks to scout/outflank. Should be relatively easy to threaten more than one facing and force it to either expose itself to twin-linked melta shots or a bunch of missiles.

I'm coming back around to the big guard blob with meltabombs on the Sergeants and meltaguns in the special weapon.

-First, it's a solid unit in it's own right, so you're not building a Knight-only counter.

-Second, the stomps will happen at the same time as the meltabombs, so you'll at least get a chance to use them once. The meltabombs on the Sergeants will be spread out, so only one will die for each stomp maximum, but possibly fewer with LOS and rolls of 1 to wound.

-Third, the meltaguns stand a pretty good chance of stripping some hull points before-hand so you don't need to take all 6 with the meltabombs

-Fourth, if anybody survives the resulting explosion (likely, there's bound to be a few 1s rolled to wound), they're still scoring, and therefore valuable.

Finally, the unit can't really be considered a Knight-hunter, but it can be a Knight-denier. Ailaros has described massed infantry meltas as something like a pike formation, and that's basically what it is in this case. You can't stop the Knight from hanging back with it's battle cannon, but that's okay. You can stop the Knight from coming up, wrecking your army in close combat, and scoring on your objective. That matters.

It also has the super-cool imagery of guardsmen climbing up the things legs and fixing charges onto critical spots.

I'm tempted to charge them with FWs with EMP grenades. It might not be that effective, but just imagine the look on your opponent's face when you take out 375 points with a 2ppm unpgrade.

I'm not really afraid of facing a single Knight in combat. My TAC list includes Terminator Lord with a Chainfist, Chaos Terminators with 2 Combi-Meltas, 4 PFs and 1 CF, a team of Melta Raptors, a Tri-Las Predator, a Chaos Vindicator and lastly, a Quad Cannon. The moment the Knight comes into the middle of the no-man's zone, he's getting to be shot at from several sides. To be honest, even engaging him into CC with the Terminators isn't that bad an idea. The Knight would kill 2 on average with the Reaper Chainsaw, and Stomp would really matter only on a roll of 6. All the while being bitch-slapped with CFs and PFs.

But, as some people have already mentioned, it's when there are 2 or more where it becomes much more difficult. At this point I suspect that more work-around tactics would be better, rather than a direct confrontation. Also, note that the more Knights the enemy has, the less he has of anything else.

What's the initiative of a Knight?

I would love it if a Knight at 375 points were in close combat with a Lord of Skulls at 888+ points and see if the single Knight took out a Lord of Skulls on its own. Way to go, idiots at GW, to make models redundant. Now all the big guys from Chaos are afraid from this thing... Brass Scorpion, Lord of Skulls etc. There's just too much profit when such a cheap model have a D-weapon.

Are we sure that Knights are scoring when they're allies? It makes sense if it's just them as they don't have troops as such, but not when they're allies.

My marines: I always run a full unit of melta sterns.
Always have done since they were available, even with the big meta change and people shifting to plasma.

My DE: I have enough lances, but wyches with haywire grenades strip it pretty well.

My necrons: Gauss, lots and lots of gauss.
Possibly the odd shot from a stronger weapon here or there, but no point really.
Failing that, scarabs to strip the armour, heck, even some guard with warscythes will do the job.



If this thing had a 2+ and some wounds, it really would be scary.
Just glad they gave it armour unlike recent large critters.

 Jackal wrote:
My marines: I always run a full unit of melta sterns.
Always have done since they were available, even with the big meta change and people shifting to plasma.

My DE: I have enough lances, but wyches with haywire grenades strip it pretty well.

My necrons: Gauss, lots and lots of gauss.
Possibly the odd shot from a stronger weapon here or there, but no point really.
Failing that, scarabs to strip the armour, heck, even some guard with warscythes will do the job.



If this thing had a 2+ and some wounds, it really would be scary.
Just glad they gave it armour unlike recent large critters.

Scarabs don't work. It's immune to Entropic Strike.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
My marines: I always run a full unit of melta sterns.
Always have done since they were available, even with the big meta change and people shifting to plasma.

My DE: I have enough lances, but wyches with haywire grenades strip it pretty well.

My necrons: Gauss, lots and lots of gauss.
Possibly the odd shot from a stronger weapon here or there, but no point really.
Failing that, scarabs to strip the armour, heck, even some guard with warscythes will do the job.



If this thing had a 2+ and some wounds, it really would be scary.
Just glad they gave it armour unlike recent large critters.

Scarabs don't work. It's immune to Entropic Strike.

Does ES perminatly lover AV or just for one attack? I'm ignorant of this.

Haywire wyches, WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Does ES perminatly lover AV or just for one attack? I'm ignorant of this.

Permanent.

Where are people getting the rules on these things?

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Where are people getting the rules on these things?

Warhammer 40000: Apocalypse or Esacalation has the rules for super heavy walkers. This thread has the leaked WD pages with the rules for knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Does ES perminatly lover AV or just for one attack? I'm ignorant of this.

Permanent.

Ah, then yes, via Invincible Behemoth they are immune.

Ah, scratch scarabs from my list then.
Im yet to actually get involved with apoc. or escalation rules.

Im assuming haywire still works though?

 Jackal wrote:
Ah, scratch scarabs from my list then.
Im yet to actually get involved with apoc. or escalation rules.

Im assuming haywire still works though?

Yep.
This is the rule in question.

INVINCIBLE BEHEMOTH
Any attack that says that the target model is destroyed, wrecked, Explodes! or is
otherwise removed from play inflicts D3 Hull Points of damage on a Super-heavy
vehicle instead. In addition, any attacks or special abilities that permanently lower the
Armour Values of a target vehicle do not affect a Super-heavy vehicle. Note that
attacks or abilities that count the Armour Value as being lower, but do not actually
change it, work normally.

Thank you very much
So lance works as normal too, which is pretty sweet.

I can see the use of sweep attacks from a CCB coming into this now.
S7 + 2D6 armour pen on 3 attacks should atleast take down 1 HP minimum.

May also roll out the pask vanquisher and his 2 friends with my guard.
Not had to use those since people spammed mss land raiders in my area.
Granted they wont kill it in 1 turn, but they should strip HP pretty well.


Ill be honest, i rather fight one of these than its equal points in riptides.
The rules seem pretty solid from what ive seen.
Good enough to use, but not broken good.

Chaospling wrote:
What's the initiative of a Knight?

I would love it if a Knight at 375 points were in close combat with a Lord of Skulls at 888+ points and see if the single Knight took out a Lord of Skulls on its own. Way to go, idiots at GW, to make models redundant. Now all the big guys from Chaos are afraid from this thing... Brass Scorpion, Lord of Skulls etc. There's just too much profit when such a cheap model have a D-weapon.

Are we sure that Knights are scoring when they're allies? It makes sense if it's just them as they don't have troops as such, but not when they're allies.

Yeah, you need Ang if you want to beat face as IIRC it's I4 and goes before Scorp and LoS. Or take a Chaos Reaver with a laser blaster, turbo laser and either another laser blaster or a power fist. EDIT: and MoT.

 Jackal wrote:
Thank you very much
So lance works as normal too, which is pretty sweet.

I can see the use of sweep attacks from a CCB coming into this now.
S7 + 2D6 armour pen on 3 attacks should atleast take down 1 HP minimum.

May also roll out the pask vanquisher and his 2 friends with my guard.
Not had to use those since people spammed mss land raiders in my area.
Granted they wont kill it in 1 turn, but they should strip HP pretty well.


Ill be honest, i rather fight one of these than its equal points in riptides.
The rules seem pretty solid from what ive seen.
Good enough to use, but not broken good.

The concern most people have now is what happens when it dies. Three tier explosion ring. Center is Str D, Inner and Outer rings vary depending on rolls. So this thing runs headlong at you lobbing melta or battle cannon shells. If you don't kill it, it starts stomping and chopping MCs and tanks while shelling hordes. If you do, it goes supernova, obliterating a measure of units that way. So unless you kill it a mile from your army, bad things happen.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Thank you very much
So lance works as normal too, which is pretty sweet.

I can see the use of sweep attacks from a CCB coming into this now.
S7 + 2D6 armour pen on 3 attacks should atleast take down 1 HP minimum.

May also roll out the pask vanquisher and his 2 friends with my guard.
Not had to use those since people spammed mss land raiders in my area.
Granted they wont kill it in 1 turn, but they should strip HP pretty well.


Ill be honest, i rather fight one of these than its equal points in riptides.
The rules seem pretty solid from what ive seen.
Good enough to use, but not broken good.

The concern most people have now is what happens when it dies. Three tier explosion ring. Center is Str D, Inner and Outer rings vary depending on rolls. So this thing runs headlong at you lobbing melta or battle cannon shells. If you don't kill it, it starts stomping and chopping MCs and tanks while shelling hordes. If you do, it goes supernova, obliterating a measure of units that way. So unless you kill it a mile from your army, bad things happen.

Well, I doubt that you can kill it from far.
With the right facing of the iron shield, the effort will be huge.
How many long range weapons do you have to strip off hull points from an AV13 walker?