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 Gogsnik wrote:
This is not my opinion it is the background. For example: "Tactical Dreadnought armour [is] virtually invulnerable to most weapons." Index Astartes: Deep Strike.

What about the part of the background that says it is vulnerable to genestealers' claws ? The thing is that most weapons are WAY less powerful than even bolters. Once you have understood that, it becomes much easier to understand what the sentence you quoted mean. Most weapons we see on the table are extremely powerful.

 Gogsnik wrote:
I repeat again, that game rules are irrelevant, as units, like terminators or genestealers, and weapons, like heavy bolters, are not accurately represented in the game.

The FLUFF from Space Hulk says that Genestealers' claws can cut through terminator armor.
Lexicanicum :
They are amongst the most deadly creatures in the Galaxy, combining high cunning, lightning-fast reactions and movement, with large, extremely sharp claws that can rip through the toughest armour in seconds.
Terminator armor is maybe the toughest armour in the galaxy, but that only means it will take a few second for the genestealers to cut through it.
That is fluff, not a rule mechanic. The fluff says, and have said for a very, very long time (at least 1989, where the rulebook from Space Hulk described the Genestealers and mentioned how they were able to cut through Terminator armour) that genestealers should be able to cut through terminator armors. So since you are able to field Genestealers, you should be able to kill Terminators in-game.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Seb wrote:

 monkeypuzzle wrote:
Listen to this man above (Nevelon). He is spot on.

The main exception is the Space Wolves as they start as bloodclaws, after experience is gained the whole squad becomes grey hunters. With even more experience they may become long fangs. If the squad is suffers big losses they may become wolf scouts (hence the better stats) and if there is just one left he becomes a lone wolf. At any time an individual may get transfered to the wolfguard if the wolf lord thinks he is deserving but the squad (pack) stay together their whole career otherwise.

I'm pretty sure it's the same for blood angels, that are assigned in assault before anything else.

Blood Angels are scouts first then assault marines, Space Wolves become Bloodclaws instead of scouts.

And since all Blood Angels suffer from the Red Thirst (really bad Bloodlust) and crave the feeling of wings and flight, as soon as a jetpack opens up in the two assault squads for a company, the tactical marines and devestators rush to fill the slot meaning the assault squads and the assault company (9th company I think?) are always full while the rest of the chapter's squads suffer from battlefield losses and attrition from The Flaw taking too many naps in their space coffins.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

What about the part of the background that says it is vulnerable to genestealers' claws ? The thing is that most weapons are WAY less powerful than even bolters. Once you have understood that, it becomes much easier to understand what the sentence you quoted mean. Most weapons we see on the table are extremely powerful.

Most weapons =/= most weapons?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

What about the part of the background that says it is vulnerable to genestealers' claws ? The thing is that most weapons are WAY less powerful than even bolters. Once you have understood that, it becomes much easier to understand what the sentence you quoted mean. Most weapons we see on the table are extremely powerful.

Most weapons =/= most weapons?

He's saying the weapons we see on the table are powerful, but the majority of weapons we see in the Galaxy aren't.
Player: 'Oh god the boltgun sucks'
Imperial Citizen: 'OH GOD IT'S LIKE A ROCKET LAUNCHER RUN AWAY!'

...And?

Even if a disproportionally large amount of strong weapons are present on the tabletop...

...You know what, this is mixing game mechanics and fluff. This won't end well.

Plus, a Genestealer's claws can cut up Bastions, if we are going to go down that route.

Genestealers: Claws are definitely more fun than doors.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Gogsnik wrote:
This is not my opinion it is the background. For example: "Tactical Dreadnought armour [is] virtually invulnerable to most weapons." Index Astartes: Deep Strike.

What about the part of the background that says it is vulnerable to genestealers' claws ? The thing is that most weapons are WAY less powerful than even bolters. Once you have understood that, it becomes much easier to understand what the sentence you quoted mean. Most weapons we see on the table are extremely powerful.

You see that word 'virtually' there in the quote? Answers your question for you.

 Gogsnik wrote:
I repeat again, that game rules are irrelevant, as units, like terminators or genestealers, and weapons, like heavy bolters, are not accurately represented in the game.

The FLUFF from Space Hulk says that Genestealers' claws can cut through terminator armor.
Lexicanicum :
They are amongst the most deadly creatures in the Galaxy, combining high cunning, lightning-fast reactions and movement, with large, extremely sharp claws that can rip through the toughest armour in seconds.
Terminator armor is maybe the toughest armour in the galaxy, but that only means it will take a few second for the genestealers to cut through it.
That is fluff, not a rule mechanic. The fluff says, and have said for a very, very long time (at least 1989, where the rulebook from Space Hulk described the Genestealers and mentioned how they were able to cut through Terminator armour) that genestealers should be able to cut through terminator armors. So since you are able to field Genestealers, you should be able to kill Terminators in-game.

I don't dispute that Genestealers are able to rip through Terminator armour as if it were tinfoil. I never said they couldn't. In fact, if you read what I said in that quote, you will see I say that, amongst other things, Genestealers are not accurately represented in the game. That means that, in the game, their ability to rip through armour of any kind as if it were tinfoil, is not accurately represented. Neither is the ability of terminator armour to be virtually invulnerable.

So, you don't like Space Marines huh, I could care less, it changes nothing, and your point above, that Genestealers are poorly represented in the game, only serves to reinforce my own point about the representation of terminator armour in the game. To reiterate, Terminators should be nigh on impossible to kill in-game and to make it very clear for the obtuse amongst us, 'nigh on' means almost invulnerable or usually invulnerable or mainly invulnerable except in those circumstances where a very specific enemy or weapon is able to damage or outright destroy terminator armour, to wit, Genestealers.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Even if a disproportionally large amount of strong weapons are present on the tabletop...

...You know what, this is mixing game mechanics and fluff.

No. As a matter of FLUFF, bolters are more powerful than most weapons around in the galaxy. There is a reason why it is only reserved to the most elite corps of the Imperium.
If you go by fluff, a laser pistol is a powerful weapon, a bolter is a very very powerful weapon, much more so than the laser pistol, and a plasma canon is an extremely, extremely powerful weapon, orders of magnitude stronger than the bolter which is already one of the most potent weapon in the galaxy.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Plus, a Genestealer's claws can cut up Bastions, if we are going to go down that route.

Do you have references to any official material deliberately speaking about genestealer cutting through the walls of a bastion in seconds ? Because I have stories about Genestealers killing Terminators in seconds. Basically any story related to Space Hulk, because it is the whole premise of the game !

 Gogsnik wrote:
and to make it very clear for the obtuse amongst us, 'nigh on' means almost invulnerable or usually invulnerable or mainly invulnerable except in those circumstances where a very specific enemy or weapon is able to damage or outright destroy terminator armour, to wit, Genestealers.

And basically anything that the fluff describe as even more powerful than a Genestealer, so also Carnifex (you know, those guys that plays with tanks as if they were dolls), hive tyrants, …
Basically anything from the tyranid army that has AP2. Good thing that terminators are nearly unkillable except from those guys.
Except if you mean that a 2+ save is not “nearly unkillable” enough because you have only 5 chances out of 6 to survive what would otherwise have been a killing blow.

Stop mixing game mechanics with fluff.
They have a 2+ armour save because that is the best armour save in the entire game, literally which should show you how damn good Terminators are.
Genestealers are good at killing Terminators because of their insane claws, not because they're big. Terminators have been known to have been trodden on my Titans and more or less live.
Also there's not a specific example in the fluff of Carnifexes being able to kill Terminators (find me a specific example please I'd love to see it), nor is there a specific example of Mandrakes being able to kill Gretchin, but I'm sure they could do it.
Just because it's not specifically in the fluff doesn't mean it can't or doesn't happen.

Um, Battle for Maccrage. Tyranids invaded the polar ice fortress of Maccrage, which was held by the first company, and decimated them nine times over.

All this talk in the fluff about "Marines being worth 1000 Guardsmen"

They're only 3 times the points????11!

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
They have a 2+ armour save because that is the best armour save in the entire game, literally which should show you how damn good Terminators are.

Stop mixing game mechanics with fluff .
Anyway, it seems we agree here : terminators are represented fairly in the game, as they have the best armor save possible.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Also there's not a specific example in the fluff of Carnifexes being able to kill Terminators (find me a specific example please I'd love to see it), nor is there a specific example of Mandrakes being able to kill Gretchin, but I'm sure they could do it.
Just because it's not specifically in the fluff doesn't mean it can't or doesn't happen.

So we both agree that Carnifexes are capable of killing terminators in the fluff, and that this is represented in the gaming table. What are we arguing about if we actually agree ? Personally, I know what I wanted to say was that genestealers, carnifex, hive tyrants, railguns, meltas, powerfists, deamon princes, C'tan shards, Avatars of Khaine and a bunch of other stuff should be able to kill terminators with relative ease, and that therefore terminators should not be "almost unkillable" on the tabletop.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Genestealers are good at killing Terminators because of their insane claws, not because they're big. Terminators have been known to have been trodden on my Titans and more or less live.

Which just means that terminator armour is tougher than earth, not tougher than a titan's foot

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
They have a 2+ armour save because that is the best armour save in the entire game, literally which should show you how damn good Terminators are.

Stop mixing game mechanics with fluff .
Anyway, it seems we agree here : terminators are represented fairly in the game, as they have the best armor save possible.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Also there's not a specific example in the fluff of Carnifexes being able to kill Terminators (find me a specific example please I'd love to see it), nor is there a specific example of Mandrakes being able to kill Gretchin, but I'm sure they could do it.
Just because it's not specifically in the fluff doesn't mean it can't or doesn't happen.

So we both agree that Carnifexes are capable of killing terminators in the fluff, and that this is represented in the gaming table. What are we arguing about if we actually agree ? Personally, I know what I wanted to say was that genestealers, carnifex, hive tyrants, railguns, meltas, powerfists, deamon princes, C'tan shards, Avatars of Khaine and a bunch of other stuff should be able to kill terminators with relative ease, and that therefore terminators should not be "almost unkillable" on the tabletop.

They're represented as best they can on the tabletop by being given literally some of the best gear in the game. I'm sure in the fluff they are almost unkillable but to have an almost unkillable unit on the tabletop would be overpowered. They'd end up being restricted to apocalypse or something stupid.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I'm sure in the fluff they are almost unkillable but to have an almost unkillable unit on the tabletop would be overpowered. They'd end up being restricted to apocalypse or something stupid.

And then those units that are able to kill them with relative ease (see previous list) would also be considered overpowered and restricted to apocalypse too, I guess. Because those would be able to one-shot anything less resistant than a terminator.

Hm. Oxayotl, your headcanon is... Different.

I prefer 40K with a bit less oneshotting.

YMMV.

Any weapon that doesn't put the target down with a single squeeze of the trigger isn't worth bothering with.

Except the Beretta M1934. That gun is just cool. Gakky. But cool.

I know this thread is old but I kind of lost track of where this thread moved to. So BA chapter the sequence is scouts, dev, assault, tac. Then vets who become terminators for special missions. Is this correct for BA's or is it scouts, assault then devs?

Do vets then become part of the chain of command at some point if they prove exceptional in battle? Or is this selected early on from gene coding? Training young to fit roles if captain from the beginning?

The BAs have a different order.

For them its Scouts, Assault, Tactical, then Devastator. Its because younger marines are more likely to succumb to the Red Thirst, so the Devastators require more discipline and experience to hold their positions instead of rushing into melee.

Veterans are promoted on an individual basis. There isn't a set protocol to when or if you get into the 1st company.

For BAs, its likely done on your age and ability to resist the Red Thirst. If you can maintain a cool head and are disciplined you get promoted into higher areas where you can maintain control.



All promotions will be given on experience. Captains will usually groom a successor from among the Sergeants in his company, but its based on merit(as the captain sees it)

I believe promotion to the 1st company is done by the Chapter Master and the 1st Captain hand picking members of the other companies as needed and deserved.

In the Horus Heresy, many of Russ's comrades (whom were quite old) from before the Emperor found Russ became Space Marines using a special process (they demanded it despite the risks). Most of them died but a lot lived, to the point where the Emperor was surprised so many survived.

Far as I could tell from the implications, this was actual full Space Marine-ness, unlike what Kor Phaeron and a few others got.

I guess it's possible that only Space Wolves can have such high survival rates of it and it's possible that the Space Wolves maintained that special technique to make older men into marines. Neither are explicitly stated, though, to my knowledge.

TiamatRoar wrote:
In the Horus Heresy, many of Russ's comrades (whom were quite old) from before the Emperor found Russ became Space Marines using a special process (they demanded it despite the risks). Most of them died but a lot lived, to the point where the Emperor was surprised so many survived.

Far as I could tell from the implications, this was actual full Space Marine-ness, unlike what Kor Phaeron and a few others got.

I guess it's possible that only Space Wolves can have such high survival rates of it and it's possible that the Space Wolves maintained that special technique to make older men into marines. Neither are explicitly stated, though, to my knowledge.

It would be plausible, seeing that the average Space Wolf aspirant is already quite old because the SW only choose those who have already performed great, legendary deeds in battle as aspirants.

 kerikhaos wrote:
I know this thread is old but I kind of lost track of where this thread moved to. So BA chapter the sequence is scouts, dev, assault, tac. Then vets who become terminators for special missions. Is this correct for BA's or is it scouts, assault then devs?

Do vets then become part of the chain of command at some point if they prove exceptional in battle? Or is this selected early on from gene coding? Training young to fit roles if captain from the beginning?

thanks for the history lesson it was well received thank you. I thought they had a different line up because of something to do with their genetic flaws