Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I often hear the balance and rules issues with 40K being waved away as being due to it being a beer and pretzels game in that it was just an excuse to push models around and roll some dice. Where the game is secondary to the beer.

Which sort of fits my view of B&P games; something to do with your hands whilst being sociable.

But in my view it's a terrible fit, since B&P games, to me should be:

* Flexible in terms of player number (2-8 or enough to fit in whoever turns up)
* Cheap enough to have laying around
* Have minimal required prep work (punching out cards, gluing figures to bases, setting up the game)
* Be quick to learn (you don't want to spend an hour explaining the rules)
* Be quick to play (it's better to play 2/3 games over an evening if they finish too soon, than be involved in a single game that drags on).

So for me B&P games tend to be either small scale skirmish style games:
* X-Wing
* Malifaux
* Dreadball

Or Board/card games:
* Munchkin
* Cutthroat Caverns
* Super Dungeon Explore
* Carcassonne

Or for the bigger event, some fairly abstracted and simple Wargames like Hail Caesar.

How does everyone else define Beer & Pretzel gaming?

You are absolutely correct in your assessment, good sir. I think the term "Beer and Pretzels" is a term thrown around too much in relation to 40k. In fact, I would say that 40k is near the opposite of what a B&P game is.

I agree with all of your points and the games you mention (that I have played), except in my view tabletop mass battle minature games are on the whole too much effort to ever be a good B&P game. (Which rules out 40K immediately, of course.)

Other classic B&P games might include Kung Fu Fighting, Revenge of the Snits, and Car Wars.

To me, a B&P game is one that the players don't take seriously, and the fun of playing is more important than winning. That bit seems to be what GW think about 40K, but nothing else fits.

You pretty much covered it. When GW says "beer and pretzels" what they really mean is "we know our rules are garbage, but buy them anyway and don't think about it too much". In reality it's a terrible "beer and pretzels" game because of the cost, extreme complexity, long setup and playing time, and general need to make it a major part of your life to get any fun out of it. It's only a "beer and pretzels" game if you're desperately flailing around for excuses for why your incompetence is actually brilliant game design.

As a general rule, a good "beer and pretzels" game is one you can get out at a party, teach everyone to play in 15 minutes or so (before they get bored and find something else to do), play without taking it too seriously, and still have fun even if it's your first game and/or you don't win.

At least it's not just me, then

 Kilkrazy wrote:

To me, a B&P game is one that the players don't take seriously, and the fun of playing is more important than winning.

I think that's the major point which I missed. And why I was so impressed by Cutthroat Caverns and its ilk; it was such a simple game but is based around screwing over your opponents (as a team you need to beat all of the monsters, but the winner is the one with the most individual kill points. So you want to help your fellow adventurers whilst stealing the glory) and had the most laughs in a game I can remember, in the same way that Mario Kart is always good fun.

It's part of why good B&P games are often multi-player. It doesn't hurt so much to come second out of five as out of two. Also the social aspect obviously is more fun with more people.

Some B&P and slightly more serious games, like Pandemic for instance, are cooperative. All the players lose or win as a team against the game system.

I feel B&P on dakka is mainly used as a synonym for a casual approach to the game with non optimized lists. In a strict sense 40K doesn't fit the definition of a B&P game, certainly not in way the OP defined it.

I think a lot of frustration comes from the schizophrenic nature of 40K. The GW designers can't seem to figure out whether they want it to be a roleplaying session with model armies or a strategy game.

I think the wikipedia description covers this best:

A beer and pretzels game is a game which is humorous and light on rules and strategy, usually containing many random elements. This is in direct contrast to German-style board games, which are generally heavy on strategy and light on randomness.

40k has the randomness and lack of tactical depth to be considered a B&P game but the rules are laughably complicated.

Beer and pretzels for me merely denotes casual simplicity. If you can play and have fun when everyone has half a mind on the game, that's beer and pretzels.

If you can play while tipsy or stone drunk, more the better. Skulldred is beer and pretzels, for example.

More often than not, beer and pretzels is a play style, a state of mind more than a set of rules, but some rules lend themselves much more to beer and pretzels. For ex, I have trouble playing Malifaux or warmahordes beer and pretzels because they tend to take more engagement, and an atmosphere is easily spoiled by a gamey player. Mordheim is pretty beer and pretzels, more so with some rules tweaks.

40k is laborious and annoying in small doses, at least for me.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

To me, a B&P game is one that the players don't take seriously, and the fun of playing is more important than winning. That bit seems to be what GW think about 40K, but nothing else fits.

This is exactly why 40k fits that for me and the group I play with.

We'll exhibit this in full force at Adepticon where we start drinking at 8AM.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
In fact, I would say that 40k is near the opposite of what a B&P game is.

The oldest White Dwarf in my collection is WD137 which included part of the rules for Necromunda's precursor Confrontation. In Confrontation Ballistic Skill ranged from 70 to 170, each weapon then had a range penalty which PER INCH. You could fire multiple shots per action with a cumulative penalty - which increased per shot. And this was meant for games of a dozen gangers per side. 40k is nowhere near the hard end of the B&P -> Hardcore scale.

Apocalypse is 40k trying to be Beer and Pretzels. It's only Beer and Pretzels because you spend so long sitting on your arse doing abso-fething-loutely nothing, because 40k is too complex and Igoyougo for it not to take an age of waiting.

In short, 40k can be enjoyed as a cinematic experience, or as a story, sure. But 40k is not a beer and pretzel game. It's a competitive game, even if they want to pretend it isn't. You can't invest that much time into learning a rules set for a game and actually think it's beer and pretzel.

Furthermore, beer and pretzel games shouldn't change as frequently as 40k does. Every single game you learn something new, or you play something differently to how you're used to doing so. Add on top of that the wildly different iterations of the game from edition to edition and even from codex to codex, and you have the clear opposite of a beer and pretzel game.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

To me, a B&P game is one that the players don't take seriously, and the fun of playing is more important than winning. That bit seems to be what GW think about 40K, but nothing else fits.

My guess is that on the other side of this, at least from GW's point of view, is supposed to be the very stiffly standing person (probably with a monocle) who declines any B&P offered with a strict and severe hand motion because they have to think about tactics and wring out all the fun out of the game while playing in a tournament. As if that is the only possible reason for people to like clear rules.

But I would include German-style board games in the B&P category as I would most board games, and probably a few skirmish size miniature games. For me it implies a very easy setup process and anything that needs too much preparation time (both of props as well as rules) doesn't seem to fit. Games that are easy to learn but harder to master shouldn't be excluded in my opinion because they can be played in the same mental state as less strategical games.

It's probably more the group that defines what works as a B&P game for them (as some people have already stated).

3 or 4 people around a table with a board game - you can be slumped in a seat with beer and pretzels (I guess crisps would be UK equivalent?) and miniatures all within reach without standing up.

Have been having tremendous fun with a game called Spartacus: Blood on the Sands recently. Fairly straightforward to pick up, but fun and massive interaction between players that only becomes more amusing and ridiculous as more beer is consumed - would definitely recommend it !

I don't think 40k is B&P simply because it is 1vs1. Usually B&P implies multiplayer where the non active people can do other things like socialize or stuff their face while someone takes their turn.

ARMAGEDDON is 40ks B&P game... because it is often 1 hour per side, and is multiplayer usually. I can go away and eat half a pizza while you do your movement in Armageddon. Also, Armageddon simply doesn't matter as D templates wiping out 40 orks a go...

Just thinking of the top of my head, mostly about games I'm at least somewhat familiar with...


Non-Beer&Pretzels Games
Warhammer Fantasy (And Storm of Magic)
Warhammer 40k (and Apocalypse)
Warmahordes
Deadzone
Dropzone Commander

Beer&Pretzel Games
Space Hulk
Mars Attacks (Probably)
Dreadball
Ultimate Dreadball
Warhammer Fantasy Triumph and Treachery
X-Wing



I think there's some rhyme and reason with my lists here...
Probably the biggest factor is 'size of the rulebook' or, at least, simplicity of the rules. Even if 40k and Fantasy were the best written rulebooks, they still can't be a b&p game, due to the sheer amount of different special rules, weapons, exceptions and contradictions. And that's without the arguments over RAI / RAW.

Warmahordes and Dropzone, I think are just too mechanically focussed, to get a decent game, you do need to have a proper plan figured out. Sort of how I'd say Chess couldn't be one. Deadzone sort of has half a foot into this, with the extra thing being a special focus on Line of Sight being a big deal.


On the B&P front, Dreadball's a great example. A good amount of randomness, it helps to have a plan, but things can mess it up enough and you only have a limited amount of things you can do at once, so things can be kept going. Ultimate Dreadball adds in the up to 4 extra players factor making things a good laugh.

X-Wing seems a bit of an oddity. It can be deeply, deeply tactical and strategic, as demonstrated by the championships and tournaments. On the other hand, the rules are so incredibly simple that you could get on with shooting lumps out of each other half pished and not care a toss....

A special mention has to be made of Triumph and Treachery. It seems that, at least as far as my Gaming club is concerned, GW actually managed to do this right and make a proper beer and pretzels game. With only 1000 points, you're not time hogging, you've got loads of people joining together, having a laugh. It just seems to genuinely work.


A special mention is Mars Attacks, but you can read a great discussion about this and the concept at Jake Thortons blog.

I like the sound of WHFT&T, actually, however I don't play WHFB and you need to learn that first.

Personally, I think that a B&P needs to be extremely streamlined and intentionally encourage a light approach to gaming. Whether or not alcohol is included, a B&P game should be playable while inebriated and not require much/any rule-checking. Also, while there are exceptions, in general a B&P game shouldn't be the kind of game that encourages power-gaming, extensive list-building and general WAAC behavior. As a member of a club that prefers streamlined rulesets and casual play, I've had quite a bit of experience.

My favorite examples include:
-Song of Blades and Heroes- Even with multiple expansions and in campaign play, it's still a game that is dead simple, fun to play, and rarely requires a rule check. The only issue with it is that it's unit creator ( a great feature of this "generic" ruleset) could be misused by WAAC players. This has one of the highest replay values of any B&P game I've played and is extremely good for campaigns.
-Panzer 8. This free series of 2-page rulesets are fun and playable, and give games that end fairly quickly. I particularly like the Sci-Fi Variant.
-In the Emperor's Name. Fast and bloody combat in the 40k universe. A variant on the quick-play "FUBAR" system.

Other good ones include
-Mech Attack by Armor Gird Games. Kind of like BattleTech but plays in 1/5th the time with 1/50th as many rules. A great easy to learn ruleset for B&P and convention games.
-Introductory level Alpha Strike. Advanced AS can add a lot of variants, but at the "introductory" level and playing only with mechs, it's a fantastic B&P mecha mash.

Lastly, I cautiously suggest Kings of War with the caveat that the number of figures required for a good game pushes it a bit beyond the casual approach of most B@P games. However for folks who already have large fantasy armies, KoW could definitely be a B&P alternative to WHFB or LoTR.

Scipio Africanus wrote:Apocalypse is 40k trying to be Beer and Pretzels. It's only Beer and Pretzels because you spend so long sitting on your arse doing abso-fething-loutely nothing, because 40k is too complex and Igoyougo for it not to take an age of waiting.

Agreed. Apoc is a "have a meal during your opponents turn" game, not a B&P.

Herzlos wrote:I
So for me B&P games tend to be either small scale skirmish style games:
* X-Wing
* Malifaux

I disagree with Xwing and Malifaux. I think both games are just deep enough to not be B&P. They aren't rules-heavy of course, but I don't think they're quite light enough to be B&P.

Many board games are B&P, but I wouldn't group German board games or "eurogames" in B&P. Many have rather complex rules, and often you have to really concentrate to a degree that the game is only really playable sober. Also because so many people seem to take them so seriously. As a class of game I don't think they all engender the "devil-may-care" spirit of a B&P.

A beer and pretzels game is defined to me by being not about winning and losing, but rather just chilling out with friends. It should be simple, quick, and easy to incorporate large groups of people.

Here are my benchmarks.

Can it support groups from 3 on up to 12?
Can it easily be played for drinks?
If I found out two players were collaborating to cheat in order to get one of our friends wasted, would I be angry?

If the answer is yes, yes, and no, then it's a beer and pretzels game.

Any game is a beer and pretzels game with sufficient application of beer and/or pretzels. I find the former is required and the latter is a luxury.

I find games like Zombicide to be the height of beer and pretzels, as its quick and pulpy, gobs of fun, and touches on mechanics almost anyone can figure out.

Though I jest, I am serious in that almost any game (40k, WM/H, Flames, Infinity, etc) can be 'beer and pretzels', so long as that is understood at the outset. To use that casual mindset as a reason for a poor rule set, however, is to use casual gaming as a shield for glaring system flaws.

To me, providing players know the rules and what their stuff does well beforehand, any game can be a B&P game with chess being the exception. Most of the games we play include dice, which in turn lead to randomness. That randomness prompts riskier decisions that can be made more fun the more that is consumed. Not every game has to be taken to the extreme level of competitive, so even Warmahordes can be enjoyable. You'll be more prompted to do fun things, take fun lists and just muck around seeing what happens.