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I use CSM Rhinos as a cheap way to help get Khorne Beserkers across the board. Move 12", pop smoke. Next turn disembarki, move rhino, block LOS. 2 Turns of the beserkers not getting gibbes has dramatically improved my sucess with beserkers (I use to footslog 20 man units across the board, didn't work out so well).

Havocs AP lets them down but still, i think there great with soulblaze. Dirge Caster is phenomenal for 5 points, it still gets shot apart like any other rhino though but i take them anyway. Arn't losing out on any transport capacity compared to razorbacks is nice.

 McGibs wrote:
What do people think about chaos rhinos? They don't get drop-pods, (at least until the new rules for the dreadclaw come out soon), and they can be great with dirge casters or havok launchers, filling a roll similar to HB razorbacks, letting them be very useful even after theyve disembarked their cargo.

I think Chaos Rhinos have been modified over the millennia to include spikes and rams.

Srsly, Chaos Rhinos are better because of their cargo more than some extra gubbins. The doods in the Chaos Rhino want to get closer to the enemy rather than stay away. If you stuff them full of Plague Marines/Beserkers and flat out every turn you can do some damage.

 kir44n wrote:
I use CSM Rhinos as a cheap way to help get Khorne Beserkers across the board. Move 12", pop smoke. Next turn disembarki, move rhino, block LOS. 2 Turns of the beserkers not getting gibbes has dramatically improved my sucess with beserkers (I use to footslog 20 man units across the board, didn't work out so well).

Ugh, that's the worst use for them.

Khorne berzerkers can not assault, for any reason, if they started your turn in a rhino, and they can not assault on your turn if they were in a rhino in your PREVIOUS player turn and your opponent blew the rhino up in his turn between them.

This means that if berzerkers start the game in a rhino, the absolute earliest that they can get into close combat is turn 3. What a waste.

And as for the rhino v. drop pod. Most things that can take either option are going to want to stay far away from stuff, which means neither option is worth taking (including the rhino). For those things you DO want to get closer (sternguard, etc.) a drop pod is SO much better, that you're going to take it instead of a rhino. Plus, drop pods can even make units you don't want to necessarily get close to stuff worthwhile to take a drop pod as part of a bigger drop pod assault strategy. Meanwhile, there IS no grand rhino rush strategy right now.

I use 2 Chaos Rhinos in my primary list, and with extra weapons and spiked rams to boot!

They provide protection for my NM squads early and mid-game. Armed with Havoc Launchers, they contribute to my army's anti-horde firepower, and thanks to Dozer Blades I'm sure they will get where I want them late in the game (we use 2 swamp tiles and 4 forest tiles that count as difficult terrain). With all the LOS-blocking terrain we use on our table, I'm usually able to set up my army in a way that prevents easy First Blood grab, and with careful planning the METAL BAWKSES can be pretty efficient.

At least, that's in my little local meta, where the 3 top-tier armies only appear in scary campfire stories.

 thecapn226 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
First blood is over-blown.

I agree with this. Whoever goes first is getting first blood if playing any competent list.

Agreed as well. You're only giving up First Blood if you don't have good LOS blocking terrain and can't play the odds if you're forced into a firing lane. I should also probably mention that I play SW, so taking Tacs/Chaos Marines isn't a waste for me in the first place.

 Ailaros wrote:

 kir44n wrote:
I use CSM Rhinos as a cheap way to help get Khorne Beserkers across the board. Move 12", pop smoke. Next turn disembarki, move rhino, block LOS. 2 Turns of the beserkers not getting gibbes has dramatically improved my sucess with beserkers (I use to footslog 20 man units across the board, didn't work out so well).

Ugh, that's the worst use for them.

Khorne berzerkers can not assault, for any reason, if they started your turn in a rhino, and they can not assault on your turn if they were in a rhino in your PREVIOUS player turn and your opponent blew the rhino up in his turn between them.

This means that if berzerkers start the game in a rhino, the absolute earliest that they can get into close combat is turn 3. What a waste.

And as for the rhino v. drop pod. Most things that can take either option are going to want to stay far away from stuff, which means neither option is worth taking (including the rhino). For those things you DO want to get closer (sternguard, etc.) a drop pod is SO much better, that you're going to take it instead of a rhino. Plus, drop pods can even make units you don't want to necessarily get close to stuff worthwhile to take a drop pod as part of a bigger drop pod assault strategy. Meanwhile, there IS no grand rhino rush strategy right now.

This being anecdotal, I can say that I have never gotten my beserkers into close combat before the 3rd turn anyways. In all 5 games I played before using rhinos, my beserkers would inevitably be slaughtered to the man, power-armour and cover saves be damned. While on paper it is an awful use of the rhino and beserkers, it has worked for me better than footslogging them across the board. So ultimately, YMMV

Even infiltrating berzerkers, it's very difficult to get them into a turn 2 assault. At least with the rhino, you get two turns to position them well, instead of footslogging where you're almost always fishing for the closest target, which may not be the most optimal one.

I use rhinos with plazma csm and they act great. Especially when there's some blos terrain or landraider to hide their advance. Havoc launchers are not bad but not an auto-include cause rhinos are best used as los-blockers. And it's hard to do it without moving flatout or 12'.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't really use rhinos for my spacemarines, but my SOB army they're essential. The amount of firepower they draw away from my sisters is vital and pay for themselves that way. But also, I use them for LOS blocking and I love to tank shock with them. That's not even counting the mobility they offer of getting my sisters into flammer range. I once used them to go in front of my repentia and it worked pretty well. (I stopped using repantia so I haven't followed that tactic up.)

But for me Rhinos are more than worth their points. First blood is over-blown.

Is converting Immolators to Rhinos easy given what the kit comes with? I was looking at FW conversion kits for the rhinos, but it occurs to me that it might be cheaper to just buy Immolators that already come with all the SoB icons and stuff and just make those Rhinos. (Or even better, not glue a few components so they can be either.) Wondering if that's doable without adding additional bits.

It's not that difficult to get berzerkers into close combat turn 2, and it's usually a breeze with infiltration, especially seeing as you get to deploy last, so they will always have a target across from them.

Plus, that's the entire point of the Icon of Wrath for berzerkers - to get that long charge in. Assuming you get a 3" run on turn 1 and a 9" charge (thanks to the icon), that's a 24" threat range, and with rather average rolling.

And even if you're talking about a turn 3 charge anyways, then at least you won't have taken casualties from an exploding rhino, or had to waste movement escaping the difficult terrain of your own wreck.

Also, I'd note that a rhino limits your berzerkers to only 10 models, or down to just 9 if you want someone to join them.

As for the first blood thing, it's not that hard to make your army relatively first-blood-proof, especially if you only need to make it more first-blood-proof than a rhino, which isn't exactly a difficult feat.

When u're playing aggressive armies - you shouldn't worry that much bout first blood. You either win big or loose big. Situations when game's a draw should bother dafensive and static armies much more.

Mavnas wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't really use rhinos for my spacemarines, but my SOB army they're essential. The amount of firepower they draw away from my sisters is vital and pay for themselves that way. But also, I use them for LOS blocking and I love to tank shock with them. That's not even counting the mobility they offer of getting my sisters into flammer range. I once used them to go in front of my repentia and it worked pretty well. (I stopped using repantia so I haven't followed that tactic up.)

But for me Rhinos are more than worth their points. First blood is over-blown.

Is converting Immolators to Rhinos easy given what the kit comes with? I was looking at FW conversion kits for the rhinos, but it occurs to me that it might be cheaper to just buy Immolators that already come with all the SoB icons and stuff and just make those Rhinos. (Or even better, not glue a few components so they can be either.) Wondering if that's doable without adding additional bits.

Easy as heck. The Immolator Kit is just a Rhino with an extra sprue of bits. The Exorcist is just an Immolator with metal bits.
I thought I would be smart and buy 2 Exorcists, then magnetize them so I could use any of the 3.
DON'T DO THIS. Magnetizing metal is a pain in the ass and doesn't work.

So if rhino's aren't worth it, should tacticals just hoof it? Or is drop pod just the way to go? Also, does the iron hands chapter tactics make it worth it?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Rhinos are great, especially when you're bringing more than 3. Here's the advantages of them:

- up of 18" movement on the first turn, or 18+12 if you've got Scout from RG or Khan. This can get you into effective range far faster than footslogging even if you get popped on the first opposing turn.

- if your Rhinos do stick around, they're amazing annoyance units. Between tank shocking, blocking LOS and potentially redeploying troops they can be useful in several ways.

- they are dirt cheap. If, in any way over the course of the game, they save more than 2 marines they've pretty much paid for themselves.

The problem is that despite saving 2-3 marines they will often cost you the win by giving first blood and/or kill points. If 40k was purely objective based then the Rhino would be a lot better.

I'm not sure FB is that much of an issue. You should easily be able to hide as many as 3 Rhinos out of LOS if you're going second, and SM have plenty of options for a good alpha-strike to steal First Blood. Sternguard pods, Ironclad pods, a TLLC predator. With careful placement and a plan for going second if you have to, it's not that much of a risk.

For a small squad of plague marines with 2x plasma, rhinos are an auto-take to me. Its dirt cheap and forces the opponent to shoot something mid strength or better at it if they want to start on my plagues. They are also durable enough to not care if the rhino explodes on em.

Rhinos were fine when you could assault out of a stationary one. Even being able to assault out of a wrecked one would help. I often wonder if this change was even intentional as the only difference from what I see boils down to one word in disembarkation restrictions - "their subsequent assault phase" as opposed to "the subsequent assault phase." To make it even weirder, it also seems that many over in YMDC agree that RAW you can assault if the transport was exploded because you never specifically disembark, unlike for wrecked.

I'm playing Space Marines mostly now, but I do still have a small CSM list that could use a couple transports... Rhinos it is then!

I think Rhinos are probably a little more tactically flexible, since Drop Pods are immobile. What seems best to me is to take 3-4 Tac Squads in Rhinos and then use Drop Pods for other things like Dreads or Sternguard. Who is going to want to shoot at Rhinos in the backfield when there is an angry Dreadnought right in their face?

Now to find some cheap Rhinos!

 Paradigm wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Rhinos are great, especially when you're bringing more than 3. Here's the advantages of them:

- up of 18" movement on the first turn, or 18+12 if you've got Scout from RG or Khan. This can get you into effective range far faster than footslogging even if you get popped on the first opposing turn.

- if your Rhinos do stick around, they're amazing annoyance units. Between tank shocking, blocking LOS and potentially redeploying troops they can be useful in several ways.

- they are dirt cheap. If, in any way over the course of the game, they save more than 2 marines they've pretty much paid for themselves.

The problem is that despite saving 2-3 marines they will often cost you the win by giving first blood and/or kill points. If 40k was purely objective based then the Rhino would be a lot better.

I'm not sure FB is that much of an issue. You should easily be able to hide as many as 3 Rhinos out of LOS if you're going second, and SM have plenty of options for a good alpha-strike to steal First Blood. Sternguard pods, Ironclad pods, a TLLC predator. With careful placement and a plan for going second if you have to, it's not that much of a risk.

Exactly, maybe it's because I don't play uber-competitive opponents, but sometimes First Blood isn't taken until turn 3. Taking Rhinos with MSU is also a good way to keep those units alive longer and force your opponent to waste shots.

Now here is a question.

Combat Squads and Rhinos, can I squad up and still begin the game in a Rhino, or is this a no-no?

Yes, both halves of a Combat Squad can share a transport, which is pretty handy as you can have half hop out to shoot more and capture something while the other half zoom off to do something else.

I can't remember the last game I had where one of my Rhinos survived. When you have them, move them as fast as you can to an objective or something you want to shoot.

Don't count on moving it more than twice in a game.

 Filch wrote:
R you marines? Then use razor backk with a nice gun.

R you chaos? Suks to be you cuz the only other taxi is a lr.

Just remember to disembark, move rhino. Shoot squad, then use shooting phase for rhino to move back n block los.

Just a general heads up :

We ask users not to use net/leet/whatever speak like this, it can be somewhat confusing for those members who don't have English as their first tongue and also tends to make one look somewhat foolish when used, which can detract from whatever point one is trying to make.

If it's worth saying then it's well worth taking that little bit more time and effort to type it out fully.

Thank you

I've had a lot of fun/success using rhinos with white scars and raven guard tactics, particularly in lower point battles. Flamer out the hatch + tank shock is murderous to fragile infantry. Putting a techmarine/MotF with harness can be cool, as you get more dakka out of the hatch.

Mobile LOS blocking terrain. have an assaulty army and an open field? Rhinos make the open field not so open and block shots coming at the rest.

This is turning out to be a great thread, lots of useful ideas! I never thought to stick a Techie in a Rhino with Tacs. That could actually be handy, considering the Techmarine just begs to be charged. Most times I field him he hides behind the Predator all game and just repairs it, one time he did actually toast some wolves that got too close, but that was it. A Rhino would be a great platform for him.

Now, Extra Armour, worth it or not? Consider that most hits will likely penetrate the measly av11 as well. Seems okay... Also I don't have a whole ton of heavy weapons, would HK missiles help or is that more of a points filler?

I think dozer blades are the only really important upgrade.

+1 to Dozer Blades. They are great if there's lots of difficult terrain to get through, and/or when going Flat Out. My main strategy actually relies on them to some extent, as I need to be as sure as possible that the Rhinos and their content will get where I want them.

I went to battlefield birmingham, a competitive tournament with thirty armies. I had a good look at all the armies and I don't remember seeing a single rhino. I was never a fan of parking lot 40k, but it kind of made me sad to see how much hp have changed the game.

If you're taking a transport you're doing it to get a unit from point A to point B. Drop Pods are the most reliable at this followed by Storm Ravens and Land Raiders. Rhinos are cheap but are easily killed. On top of that there is a chance of an explosion killing troops inside or worst of all the unit fails their pinning check and they do nothing for a turn. I play mechanized Black Templar and having a crusader squad pinned in the middle of nowhere because their rhino was glanced to death by a heavy stubber is no fun.

I've tried different tactics of adding LRCs and vindicators to take the heat off of the rhinos. I've also tried to hide rhinos behind a LRC spearhead. Some times it works but a good opponent will usually try to get first blood on the rhinos since it can determine how the rest of the game will play out.

A drop pod can deliver things better. And they can also provide cover/terrain since you can deploy them empty. unless you're fighting Tau with loads of interceptor fire they will get to where you want them to go letting you snipe down a unit or assault it next turn.

I would suggest Razorbacks over rhinos. If gives you more flexibility in what they can do. They can act as a transport or, long range fire support.

The biggest draw back to pods are it's one shot movement.
People quip and joke that Rhinos only last one turn anyway but they are designed to be used repeatedly either as transports or as mobile LOS blockers.