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 Jancoran wrote:
NO part of the model can move more than 12" ...

Note that this would mean that a land raider pivoting 180 degrees and then moving would automatically be moving more than 6"...

... But the sponsons must be considered as part of the model as you (the global you) are damn sure going to call someone on it if they come within an inch of them.

Coming within an inch of the sponson would only be a problem if the sponson is considered a part of the hull... in which case it would indeed also count for deployment.

If you don't treat the sponsons as a part of the hull, then they would count for neither situation.

Interesting... some people don't count sponsons as part of the hull?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Coyote - except you aren't allowed to change the point at which you measure from. So your method is illegal.

Seriously. Known to the studio, not an exploit. There are far worse abstractions to be worried about.

I don't understand people's obsession with measuring from the same point, when what really matters is what point if furthest in the direction of movement when you start and when you finish. That is what determines how far the vehicle went.

I think the main problem is that people feel that they can pivot a tank before measuring it's position. I feel this tactic is not in how the rules read. Every model in the game is measured before you move it, but for some reason people feel that they can pivot their tanks before measuring for their movement. Their are specific exceptions. Tankshocks/Flatout. But these are called out in the book as different ways a tank moves from the normal way. They are EXCEPTIONS. Since this is a permissive rule set. Where does it say under the normal movement rules you can pivot your tank before you move? It says you can choose to pivot as many times as you want during your move. It also say you can choose to only pivot and this does not count as moving, but no where does it say you can pivot before moving your tank. This is the main reason I see that you have to measure distances based on the tanks current position, not the position you pivot to, and thus if done correctly, no part of your tank is going to move more then 6" to the directions you want to move your tank.

 insaniak wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
NO part of the model can move more than 12" ...

Note that this would mean that a land raider pivoting 180 degrees and then moving would automatically be moving more than 6"...

I think he mis-worded that. not that any part moves more then 12", but that no part of the vehicle ends up more then 12" from where the tank started, not where that part of the vehicle started.

PS: This would all be so much easier with physical examples.

Now I wish I had my rulebook with me... 'cause I've never heard of /seen anyone play that way before Coyote81

 Dracos wrote:
Now I wish I had my rulebook with me... 'cause I've never heard of /seen anyone play that way before Coyote81

How do you move your infantry? Do you pick a point on the circle base move it 6" then rotate your infantry around the point you picked? No, you pick a point on the infantry base, and when you move it 6" you make sure no part of that circle moved more then 6". Same goes for those oval monster/flyer bases. YOu can't just rotate them to gain movement, you have to prevent the base from moving extra inch by rotating it before you reach your 6" point and putting the furthest part of the base toward the direction you moved.

I don't see how people can move infantry and ensure they don't ever exceed 6" but they have not problems moving tanks and going over their movement distance all the time.

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't understand people's obsession with measuring from the same point, when what really matters is what point if furthest in the direction of movement when you start and when you finish. That is what determines how far the vehicle went.

The problem with this interpretation is that there are no rules that actually support it.

The measurement diagram in the rulebook just deals with measuring from the one point on the vehicle to the same point on the vehicle as it moves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't see how people can move infantry and ensure they don't ever exceed 6" but they have not problems moving tanks and going over their movement distance all the time.

The same way they can roll to wound against infantry and roll for armour penetration against vehicles... Infantry and vehicles have different rules.

 insaniak wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't understand people's obsession with measuring from the same point, when what really matters is what point if furthest in the direction of movement when you start and when you finish. That is what determines how far the vehicle went.

The problem with this interpretation is that there are no rules that actually support it.

The measurement diagram in the rulebook just deals with measuring from the one point on the vehicle to the same point on the vehicle as it moves.

It that regard the diagram also doesn't show you pivoting your model before you measure your distance. That diagram is not all inclusive of the rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Coyote81 wrote:
I don't see how people can move infantry and ensure they don't ever exceed 6" but they have not problems moving tanks and going over their movement distance all the time.

The same way they can roll to wound against infantry and roll for armour penetration against vehicles... Infantry and vehicles have different rules.

I'm 99% confident (.99999 even) that your reading, Coyote81, is incorrect. If no one else has cited rules when I get home tonight, I will do so for you. I suppose we could move this to YMDC if that seems appropriate.

 Dracos wrote:
I'm 99% confident (.99999 even) that your reading, Coyote81, is incorrect. If no one else has cited rules when I get home tonight, I will do so for you. I suppose we could move this to YMDC if that seems appropriate.

It probably is.

I think the way people pivot they're tanks is directly against the base rules on how to measure distances from page 4.

 Coyote81 wrote:
[ Since the rules don't say you can pivot before you move. measure you distance you want to move using the point on the trukk closest to where you want to move. Measure your 6", 7" or 12" (what ever distance you choose) and mark the spot you want you trukk to end up at.

They also don't tell you that you have to measure your movement all in one go...

Move the truck an infinitisimal distance forwards, pivot (which can be done freely, as per the vehicle movement rules) and then measure the rest of your movement distance.

Exactly the same result as pivoting before you move... which is why people generally accept it as being ok, despite not technically being what the rules say to do.

 Coyote81 wrote:

"Distance between models and all other objects (which can be other models, terrain features and so on) are always measured from the closest point on one base to the closest point on the other base. Distance between units are always measured from the closest model in each of the units (see diagram)" -Rules book page 4, right column, 3rd paragraph.

The diagram here shows a prime example of what I'm talking about, they measure the distance from the trukk to the marines using the point on the trukk that is closest to the marines. This method should be applied to movement as well. Since the rules don't say you can pivot before you move. measure you distance you want to move using the point on the trukk closest to where you want to move. Measure your 6", 7" or 12" (what ever distance you choose) and mark the spot you want you trukk to end up at. (I usually place my finger down here, but you can use a marker, or whatever) Now move your trukk that distance, pivoting your trukk to face whatever direction you want. Now when you put your trukk in it's final spot, no part of that trukk should be past the spot you measure, because you measure the 6" movement you are allowed per the rules and following the guide on how tt measure distances, if any part of the trukk is past that point you marked, it moved farther then 6".

Page 71, "As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances from a base cannot be used." So that kind of excludes the entirety of the page 4 section in the discussion. It goes on to say that "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, baners, and other decorative elements."
If you're measuring from the initial point to the final end point only you're making it so I can face forward, move 7", then pivot to face sideways, appearing I only moved 6" so now I can fire at combat speed instead of cruising speed.
It would also render the entire point of how to pivot moot, since if no section of the vehicle can move past point "x" then you'd need no instruction on how to pivot and just say the vehicle can take any facing after moving.

Tank Shock and Ramming both show diagrams that specifically measure AFTER pivoting, from the same point at the beginning to the point at the end.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:

"Distance between models and all other objects (which can be other models, terrain features and so on) are always measured from the closest point on one base to the closest point on the other base. Distance between units are always measured from the closest model in each of the units (see diagram)" -Rules book page 4, right column, 3rd paragraph.

The diagram here shows a prime example of what I'm talking about, they measure the distance from the trukk to the marines using the point on the trukk that is closest to the marines. This method should be applied to movement as well. Since the rules don't say you can pivot before you move. measure you distance you want to move using the point on the trukk closest to where you want to move. Measure your 6", 7" or 12" (what ever distance you choose) and mark the spot you want you trukk to end up at. (I usually place my finger down here, but you can use a marker, or whatever) Now move your trukk that distance, pivoting your trukk to face whatever direction you want. Now when you put your trukk in it's final spot, no part of that trukk should be past the spot you measure, because you measure the 6" movement you are allowed per the rules and following the guide on how tt measure distances, if any part of the trukk is past that point you marked, it moved farther then 6".

Page 71, "As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances from a base cannot be used." So that kind of excludes the entirety of the page 4 section in the discussion. It goes on to say that "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, baners, and other decorative elements."
If you're measuring from the initial point to the final end point only you're making it so I can face forward, move 7", then pivot to face sideways, appearing I only moved 6" so now I can fire at combat speed instead of cruising speed.
It would also render the entire point of how to pivot moot, since if no section of the vehicle can move past point "x" then you'd need no instruction on how to pivot and just say the vehicle can take any facing after moving.

Tank Shock and Ramming both show diagrams that specifically measure AFTER pivoting, from the same point at the beginning to the point at the end.

The point of pivoting is to avoid other models and terrain and to allow for you to choose your final facing for opposing units to shoot at. The instructions on how to pivot are specified to prevent people from pivoting vehicle on odd corners to gain movement advantage. (It describes this reasoning in the rule book under pivoting)

Tankshocks and rams are in a different section for a reason, they are a special set of rules for an action that differs from the standard movement rules. You can't use them as evidence to prove how the standard movement rules work.

Coyote81, I actually think your interpretation is more right. But if most players have been playing it the other way, I do not think they will change easily.

How would you handle moving in a curve around an impassable object? The vehicle must pivot at some point right? Then once it does, it would be difficult to ensure that no part travels more than 6(or 12).

 Coyote81 wrote:
The instructions on how to pivot are specified to prevent people from pivoting vehicle on odd corners to gain movement advantage. .

But ff the measurement is supposed to be done the way you are suggesting, this would be uneccessary. It wouldn't matter how you pivot the vehicle as it's still going to wind up in the same end position.

No no need to put the sponsons on the top of the tank!

Coyote - no, I am sorry but your idea that you measure from different spots on the vehicle is flat out incorrect. You pick one, consistent point, and measure from there. BEcause that is what the rules tell you to do.

You are still confusing displacement with movement. In 40k they are NOT always the same thing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Coyote - no, I am sorry but your idea that you measure from different spots on the vehicle is flat out incorrect. You pick one, consistent point, and measure from there. BEcause that is what the rules tell you to do.

You are still confusing displacement with movement. In 40k they are NOT always the same thing.

do you have a page number in the BRB to back this up?

If I want to move my Rhino forward, I measure from its front hull. If I want to move it backwards, I measure from its rear hull, effectively ignoring its entire length if you want me to stick to measuring from its front hull for the rest of the game.

Stop that, it's silly!

Not while at work, however it is a simple consequence of the abstraction of pivoting not reducing movement

There are many, many threads on this - ones from 2010 onwards (note, no change in vehicle movement rules since 1998, start of 3rd edition):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/294492.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/369233.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547899.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355420.page

Seriously, this isnt even debatable any longer. It isnt an exploit. THe studio are 10000000% aware that this is a consequence of the simplified vehicle rules that have been in the game now for 16 years, and it is not worth repopening this topic every 6 months or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Coyote - no, I am sorry but your idea that you measure from different spots on the vehicle is flat out incorrect. You pick one, consistent point, and measure from there. BEcause that is what the rules tell you to do.

You are still confusing displacement with movement. In 40k they are NOT always the same thing.

do you have a page number in the BRB to back this up?

If I want to move my Rhino forward, I measure from its front hull. If I want to move it backwards, I measure from its rear hull, effectively ignoring its entire length if you want me to stick to measuring from its front hull for the rest of the game.

Ah, you didnt add what you were querying.

Nothing states you pickj the same spot the whole game. Just that when meauring a vehicles move, you pick a spot. Nothing states that has to be the same spot every time you measure a new move.

The rules don't state where to measure from, but they do state that you retain consistency within each measurement. If you measure from the front of the tank, you measure to the front of the tank.

I also do not see the problem here at all, both are independent rules:

You may pivot around the centre point of a vehicle (always the same point) as many times as you want.

You can also move a certain distance (up to 12" for example), measuring from any random point of the vehicle.

As long as the front left chimney, in a straight line, is 12" from where it was, you're within the rules.

If you need to manoeuvre around things:

The front left chimney is measured 3" in a straight line -*pivoting happens*- the back left tail light is then measured 5" in a straight line -*pivoting happens*- the central antenna is then measured 4" in a straight line, and you have used up your 12" movement maximum.

If your tank was facing backwards at the beginning of the game. -*pivoting happens*-
Followed by standard measuring rules.

Chrysis wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have less of a problem with this than I do with people putting non-skimmer tanks on top of the Skyshield.

Doesnt the Skyshield have a lift?

No. The extent of it's access methods is ladders. Or jumping.

not how it works at all.

the rules for the landing pad do not have access points, to transition between top and bottom is a simple difficult terrain test for a vehicle, for infantry they make a move through cover move, no stipulation on distance either so it doesn't require 3" like a ruin does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not while at work, however it is a simple consequence of the abstraction of pivoting not reducing movement

There are many, many threads on this - ones from 2010 onwards (note, no change in vehicle movement rules since 1998, start of 3rd edition):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/294492.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/369233.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547899.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/355420.page

Seriously, this isnt even debatable any longer. It isnt an exploit. THe studio are 10000000% aware that this is a consequence of the simplified vehicle rules that have been in the game now for 16 years, and it is not worth repopening this topic every 6 months or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Coyote - no, I am sorry but your idea that you measure from different spots on the vehicle is flat out incorrect. You pick one, consistent point, and measure from there. BEcause that is what the rules tell you to do.

You are still confusing displacement with movement. In 40k they are NOT always the same thing.

do you have a page number in the BRB to back this up?

If I want to move my Rhino forward, I measure from its front hull. If I want to move it backwards, I measure from its rear hull, effectively ignoring its entire length if you want me to stick to measuring from its front hull for the rest of the game.

Ah, you didnt add what you were querying.

Nothing states you pickj the same spot the whole game. Just that when meauring a vehicles move, you pick a spot. Nothing states that has to be the same spot every time you measure a new move.

-I just don't understand how everyone that uses the pivot rule that way conveniently skips the rules for measuring on page 4, that states that you measure distances from the closest point on the model to the point you measuring against, be it another model, a terrain feature or so on. (I think that pretty much covers anything you measure distance to, including open ground that you intend to move to). You do not measure from the same point on a vehicle at all times, you measure from the point on the vehicle closest to the point you are measuring to.

-Where in the rules does it say you can pivot before you more. I just don't understand how people think they can measure their distance after they pivot.(Does this game allow you to move your models before measuring distances? The rules do not allow that. And if you try to say you barely move and pivot as the first part of your move, then I'll have to tell you, the distance your tank covers from where it started to where the front end, ends up at counts as movement based on the way the rules of measuring distance work.

Is the real way the rules work more difficult? Yes Will people choose to not play with, and not enforce these rules because they are more difficult? Yes I just want it to be known that people are not necessarily doing things right just because that is how Everyone is doing it.

@nosferatu1001: I appreciate the links, but I see the same two things being ignored in each situation. I do feel that having this discussion reopened every now and then helps the general populace understand the rules better.

 Coyote81 wrote:
-I just don't understand how everyone that uses the pivot rule that way conveniently skips the rules for measuring on page 4, that states that you measure distances from the closest point on the model to the point you measuring against, be it another model, a terrain feature or so on. (I think that pretty much covers anything you measure distance to, including open ground that you intend to move to). You do not measure from the same point on a vehicle at all times, you measure from the point on the vehicle closest to the point you are measuring to.

-Where in the rules does it say you can pivot before you more. I just don't understand how people think they can measure their distance after they pivot.(Does this game allow you to move your models before measuring distances? The rules do not allow that. And if you try to say you barely move and pivot as the first part of your move, then I'll have to tell you, the distance your tank covers from where it started to where the front end, ends up at counts as movement based on the way the rules of measuring distance work.

Page 71, Vehicle Movement:

Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about the centre-point, rather than wheeling around.Turning does not reduce the vehicle's movement. (Emphasis added by GW).

Coyote81 wrote:

-I just don't understand how everyone that uses the pivot rule that way conveniently skips the rules for measuring on page 4, that states that you measure distances from the closest point on the model to the point you measuring against,

Stop there. Reread that exact rule. Notice how it is to measure distances between units - for shooting, declaring charges, deployment etc.

We arent ignoring rules, you are mis applying this rule and thinking it applies to everything. It doesnt.

Coyote81 wrote:be it another model, a terrain feature or so on. (I think that pretty much covers anything you measure distance to, including open ground that you intend to move to). You do not measure from the same point on a vehicle at all times, you measure from the point on the vehicle closest to the point you are measuring to.

As above, you clearly have not read the vehicle rules, as you DO use the same point when measuring, as you are explicitly told.

Coyote81 wrote:-Where in the rules does it say you can pivot before you more.

Irrelevant. I move 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001", then pivot. Bam. During movement.

Or, realise this is a silly requirement, pivot "before" moving while acknowledging you have really moved an infinitesimal amount.

Coyote81 wrote: I just don't understand how people think they can measure their distance after they pivot.(Does this game allow you to move your models before measuring distances? The rules do not allow that. And if you try to say you barely move and pivot as the first part of your move, then I'll have to tell you, the distance your tank covers from where it started to where the front end, ends up at counts as movement based on the way the rules of measuring distance work.

And I would have to tell you that, no, it does NOT count as movement, because otherwise you are breqaking the rule oft quoted - that pivoting DOES NOT REDUCE a vehicles movement. IF you claim my pivoting has cost me movement, then you have REDUCED MY MOVEMENT - guess what isnt allowed?

Coyote81 wrote:Is the real way the rules work more difficult?

No, your made up version of the rule,s which relies upon changing two rules entirely, IS more difficult.

Good luck with it as a houserule

Coyote81 wrote:Yes Will people choose to not play with, and not enforce these rules because they are more difficult? Yes I just want it to be known that people are not necessarily doing things right just because that is how Everyone is doing it.

People are doing things right because they are doing things right. AND because everyone* is doing it.

So no, it isnt worth reopening it as a target for discussion, because the actual, written rules - unchanged for sixteen years - are clear.

*apart from those that seek to play houserules that disallow it, or to passively aggressively try to stop people from doing it, that is

@nosferatu1001

-I did reread it and I quoted it earlier.

"Distance between models and all other objects (which can be other models, terrain features and so on) are always measured from the closest point on one base to the closest point on the other base.

This mentions terrain features and so on. Seem that includes measuring from your model to anything/anywhere else. If it didn't then you wouldn't be allowed to measure anything since this is the only rule in the book they tells you how to measure distances.

-Please quote me where it says use the same point on the vehicle. you say it explicitly says so but I can't find it and noone else has quoted so.

Counting for far you tank moved due to pivoting is not reducing it's movement. You suffer no distinct penalty for turning, thus you are never having your movement reduced. however, when you pivot, your tank does move, and thus you need to measure how far it moved. (there is a designed exception to this rule for if you decide to pivot in place and not move, thus counting as stationary. otherwise you have to move and pivot, and if you move you need to know how far your tank moved.)

For example using the rules try this. Place your tank sideways and pick a point some 6-7" away perpendicular to the tank. Measure the distance from the side of the tank to the point (Per the rules on page 4 use the point of the hull closest to the point) Move your tiny tiny small amount of movement and pivot your tank toward the point. How far much closer is the closest point of that tank to the point you picked on the table? Do some simple math and subtract that from you first measurement. This is how far you tank moved. You didn't have your movement reduced by pivoting, you physically moved your tank closer to the point. Thus it counts as having moved that distance. Per the rules on page 4 you always measure the spot closest to the point. So when you pivot you are changing the distance between you and your point, thus you are moving.

The idea of having your movement reduced is like suffering a penalty. Page 3 of the basic rules talks about models having their characteristics reduced to 0 and the penalties they suffer. Models have their own movement they are allowed based on they unit type. When the rules are talking about the movement not being reduced due to turning. They are saying that there is not penalty for moving. This is dispute the fact that there is an obvious difference in the facing on a vehicle, unlike a infantry model which can face any direction and it's all the same.

Basically what I'm saying is that having your movement reduced is a penalty. Pivoting and moving closer to a point is not a penalty, it's movement toward the point/unit/object you headed toward.

The rule book explains that pivoting rules are designed to prevent a vehicle from accidentally moving further then intended or allowed. So why do people think that they can use pivoting to do exactly the opposite of what the book say the rules are intended to prevent?

Cause they wanna win. Of course. Take the high road. I'm telling ya.

nutty_nutter wrote:

not how it works at all.

the rules for the landing pad do not have access points, to transition between top and bottom is a simple difficult terrain test for a vehicle, for infantry they make a move through cover move, no stipulation on distance either so it doesn't require 3" like a ruin does.

You misunderstood his point. He wasn't saying that the rules require you to use the ladders. He was pointing out the silliness of the rules allowing tanks to move on and off the pad when the model has no actual way for them to do so.

 insaniak wrote:

nutty_nutter wrote:

not how it works at all.

the rules for the landing pad do not have access points, to transition between top and bottom is a simple difficult terrain test for a vehicle, for infantry they make a move through cover move, no stipulation on distance either so it doesn't require 3" like a ruin does.

You misunderstood his point. He wasn't saying that the rules require you to use the ladders. He was pointing out the silliness of the rules allowing tanks to move on and off the pad when the model has no actual way for them to do so.

ah right, then I apologise.

but yes, it is a silly unthoughtout fortification. if they had actually written proper rules for it then there wouldn't be a problem.

A landing pad for you to Deep Strike flyers onto...
...Then remove Deep Strike from all Flyers.

And has anyone ever seen any aircraft land on the landing pad? It's normally full of tanks or battlesuits!
(i'm waiting for the "aye, once! 50 years ago under a red sky..." story)