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 TheCustomLime wrote:
Fair enough. Alright, well, Boltguns are powerful for an Imperial small arm. I am not sure how other race's weapons have been compared to it in the fluff.

Well pulse.burst is pretty consistently portrayed as being more powerful than bolters (the FW game is not applicable here because they didn't want you to get an extremely powerful gun straight off. For gods sake lasguns were better than then in FW). Eldar shuriken is kind of weird as it's hard tell exactly how powerful, but they generally considered about the same.

Shuriken are about the same strength as bolter rounds. Except the Shuriken has way less effective range(likely due to the ammo losing ballistic stability)

 Grey Templar wrote:
Shuriken are about the same strength as bolter rounds. Except the Shuriken has way less effective range(likely due to the ammo losing ballistic stability)

Not even that, they simply lack the explosive punch bolters almost always follow up with. You can shoot up an Astartes, or even a normal human with shuriken rounds. Unless it cuts something important, it's just a nasty flesh wound.PA's so thick that despite Shuriken's being GW's magical idea of monomolecuar, lack enough force to drive them through bulky armor like PA or terminator armor. Some unlucky chaps tend to die, but otherwise they'll just come out looking like pincushions. Hell, even ludicrously thick Flak armor would probably protect you from shurikens.

The difference being that eventually the flak will get shredded to the point where you are vulnerable. And shuriken weapons fire a ton of shots.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference being that eventually the flak will get shredded to the point where you are vulnerable. And shuriken weapons fire a ton of shots.

It's still a crap gun to use as the main weapon for your infantry. IIRC, at least the Corsairs have a what are pretty much hellguns as an infantry weapon, which would be far superior than shuriken weapons, especially in the penetration department.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference being that eventually the flak will get shredded to the point where you are vulnerable. And shuriken weapons fire a ton of shots.

It's still a crap gun to use as the main weapon for your infantry. IIRC, at least the Corsairs have a what are pretty much hellguns as an infantry weapon, which would be far superior than shuriken weapons, especially in the penetration department.

Shuriken weapons are quite powerful though (although, like bolters, and a middling infantry weapon). They are super sharp, very good at penetrating armour, and they fire, IIRC, hundreds of shurikens per burst. It's not as effective against power armour, but it is quite effective against anything less (and will turn an unarmored human into salsa).

MrBlackledge wrote:i think this is entirely dependant on who is writing the book. in some cases one bolt round can punch through the chest plating on power armour in other cases 5 shots wont penetrate the armour. i think it also depends on who the character is shooting/being shot by. i think we can all agree that Kharn being shot buy generic ultramarine 1 isnt going to do any damage but kharn shooting at generic ultramarine 1 will blow the marine into thousands of tiny pieces spraying bone fragments which are traveling at hyper volicty and punch through the armour and kill the rest of the squad...

see where im going with this? its the same with every race and every weapon. wouldnt be suprised if various main characters armour could hold out against melta guns. and im pretty sure farsight could get trod on by an imperator class titan and get up afterwards shouting "armour save is 1+ motherf*****r!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and im not talking about plot armour im just saying that we are told so many extremes that its hard to guage it

Kharn uses a plasma pistol, just sayin'.

Also, I'd think a bolt round were take at least a couple shots to punch through power armour, and just a single shot for standard FW armour.
Now, if the FW was wearing a battlesuit, it would be an entirely different story.....

 YFNPsycho wrote:

MrBlackledge wrote:i think this is entirely dependant on who is writing the book. in some cases one bolt round can punch through the chest plating on power armour in other cases 5 shots wont penetrate the armour. i think it also depends on who the character is shooting/being shot by. i think we can all agree that Kharn being shot buy generic ultramarine 1 isnt going to do any damage but kharn shooting at generic ultramarine 1 will blow the marine into thousands of tiny pieces spraying bone fragments which are traveling at hyper volicty and punch through the armour and kill the rest of the squad...

see where im going with this? its the same with every race and every weapon. wouldnt be suprised if various main characters armour could hold out against melta guns. and im pretty sure farsight could get trod on by an imperator class titan and get up afterwards shouting "armour save is 1+ motherf*****r!!!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and im not talking about plot armour im just saying that we are told so many extremes that its hard to guage it

Kharn uses a plasma pistol, just sayin'.

Also, I'd think a bolt round were take at least a couple shots to punch through power armour, and just a single shot for standard FW armour.
Now, if the FW was wearing a battlesuit, it would be an entirely different story.....

FW armour (or at least the plates, not the fabric) is known to stand up to bolt rounds. Bolters aren't really that good in the scene of things. They can kill a normal human-like being easily enough, but if he is wearing at least decent armour (carapace armour, combat armour, aspect armour) he can survive. For tau combat armour, you have a good chance at surviving as long as it hits the armour plates but if you look at tau armour, the fatigues underneath are nowhere near as strong.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Shuriken are about the same strength as bolter rounds. Except the Shuriken has way less effective range(likely due to the ammo losing ballistic stability)

Not even that, they simply lack the explosive punch bolters almost always follow up with. You can shoot up an Astartes, or even a normal human with shuriken rounds. Unless it cuts something important, it's just a nasty flesh wound.PA's so thick that despite Shuriken's being GW's magical idea of monomolecuar, lack enough force to drive them through bulky armor like PA or terminator armor. Some unlucky chaps tend to die, but otherwise they'll just come out looking like pincushions. Hell, even ludicrously thin Flak armor would probably protect you from shurikens.

Ever heard of:
Bleeding to death
Incapacitation
Infection
Pain?? A human shot up by shuriken rounds isn't going to keep walking. As it has always been said 'remove the models as casualties'. A casualty does not necessarily mean dead, just injured to the point where they may as well not be on the board. Any model that has bled to death, been knocked out by the blast from artillery fire or any other such occurrence (lost a limb from a boltgun) is a casualty and is removed from the board.
Fixed that for you.
Also, no it doesn't, Shuriken Weapons are AP5 IIRC.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Shuriken are about the same strength as bolter rounds. Except the Shuriken has way less effective range(likely due to the ammo losing ballistic stability)

Not even that, they simply lack the explosive punch bolters almost always follow up with. You can shoot up an Astartes, or even a normal human with shuriken rounds. Unless it cuts something important, it's just a nasty flesh wound.PA's so thick that despite Shuriken's being GW's magical idea of monomolecuar, lack enough force to drive them through bulky armor like PA or terminator armor. Some unlucky chaps tend to die, but otherwise they'll just come out looking like pincushions. Hell, even ludicrously thin Flak armor would probably protect you from shurikens.

Ever heard of:
Bleeding to death
Incapacitation
Infection
Pain?? A human shot up by shuriken rounds isn't going to keep walking. As it has always been said 'remove the models as casualties'. A casualty does not necessarily mean dead, just injured to the point where they may as well not be on the board. Any model that has bled to death, been knocked out by the blast from artillery fire or any other such occurrence (lost a limb from a boltgun) is a casualty and is removed from the board.
Fixed that for you.
Also, no it doesn't, Shuriken Weapons are AP5 IIRC.

Yup, AP5. Shuriken weapons are generally viewed as being able to shred flak armour.

 Psienesis wrote:


The bog-standard small-arm is a lasweapon.

Yet almost every big name race's standard gun (If not every) is better than a lasgun.

Depends on who is shooting it.

Mathematically, a Pulse Rifle(Fire Warrior) is the exact same lethality as a Bolter(Marine).

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yet almost every big name race's standard gun (If not every) is better than a lasgun.

That'll be because the lasgun outnumbers the main arms of most other races many, many times over.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Shuriken are about the same strength as bolter rounds. Except the Shuriken has way less effective range(likely due to the ammo losing ballistic stability)

Not even that, they simply lack the explosive punch bolters almost always follow up with. You can shoot up an Astartes, or even a normal human with shuriken rounds. Unless it cuts something important, it's just a nasty flesh wound.PA's so thick that despite Shuriken's being GW's magical idea of monomolecuar, lack enough force to drive them through bulky armor like PA or terminator armor. Some unlucky chaps tend to die, but otherwise they'll just come out looking like pincushions. Hell, even ludicrously thin Flak armor would probably protect you from shurikens.

Ever heard of:
Bleeding to death
Incapacitation
Infection
Pain?? A human shot up by shuriken rounds isn't going to keep walking. As it has always been said 'remove the models as casualties'. A casualty does not necessarily mean dead, just injured to the point where they may as well not be on the board. Any model that has bled to death, been knocked out by the blast from artillery fire or any other such occurrence (lost a limb from a boltgun) is a casualty and is removed from the board.
Fixed that for you.
Also, no it doesn't, Shuriken Weapons are AP5 IIRC.

This is fluff. We don't care about the tabletop as the tabletop is completely different than the fluff (even the RPG's). You had ridiculously thick flack armor, it will stop a shuriken by eating up its force, thus eventually stopping the blow.
As for bleeding out, did you happen to miss the hitting anything vital part? A shuriken that hits nothing but muscle and misses arteries will be as lethal as a scapel launched out of an air cannon. Their lethality comes through volume of fire, otherwise they're a terrible arm to use as the base weapon for your civilization's army, especially when fusion guns or beefed up laser guns are available.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
How many bolt rounds does it take to go through Space Marine, Eldar, and Tau armor? And generally any other armors.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure of what you mean. 'Getting through armor' is not usually a function of how many hits the armor has taken (at least when ti comes to small arms vs armor), you don't have to wait until armor is too damaged to offer protection before you can effect the wearer. If you hit someone in armor 5 times and they are injured only on the final shot, that does not mean it took 5 shots to go through the armor, merely that one of those shots got through and it happened to be the 5th one. Which is to say, that weather or not a given shot penetrates a suit of armor (sufficient to cause injury) is independent of how many previous shots connected. The only time this is not true, is when the armor has become so riddled with holes that it no longer offers protection to the wearer.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
if the rules are anything to go by.

Newsflash, they aren't.

Oh, there is a whole other debate in this bit.

Answer: Entirely up to the author.
Real answer: If you're a Chaos Marine, your power armour can take precisely 0.1 bolt rounds before the highly explosive material the armour is made of detonates. The same applies to the plating of Chaos Dreadnoughts.

Even more real answer: The idea of failing armour saves because of shots hitting eye lenses or joints doesn't work unless Artificer Armour has less eye lens than regular Power Armour. It can't even be that the eyes are tougher, because then what is the "lucky shot" hitting? The weak point in the lens?

The realest answer: Eldar trickery.

EDIT: Standard Tau and Eldar Guardian armour can't stand up to a bolter. Suits worn by Aspect Warriors, Exarchs and Autarchs are considerably tougher. AP can be used as a rough gauge (e.g. a Guardian gets no armour save against a bolter, therefore we can assume that in fluff, bolter rounds reliably penetrate it), but once you get into 3+ vs AP5, there is literally no way of knowing.

EDIT2: Wow, Fire Warriors have 4+ armour. I thought they had 5+! In that case, yeah, they can stop bolter rounds, obviously in a lesser capacity than power/exarch/etc armour, but a Fire Warrior could be reasonably expected to get shot with a bolter and survive, unlike a Guardsman.

Not just the eye lens.

It also covers the joints. Artificer armor presumably covers the joints up more.

But it doesn't! Even if we assume that they make them tougher, does this mean that their joints and eye lenses have the equivalent of a 3+ save?

Also, if you can make a Marine completely invincible to anything less than AP3 simply by covering up the eyes and joints, surely they would have done this by now. Any Marine casualties from high-AP weapons would simply not happen, which would enormously increase their effectiveness! What about a Wraithlord? Where's the weakpoint on that (partly due to the silliness of using MC rules instead of Walker rules, I suppose)?

EDIT: Also, how do you fail an armour save against a flamer? Does the fire just particularly go into your eyes or something?

Burning liquid tends to get into even the smallest cracks.

In WW2, the worst thing a tanker could encounter was a flamethrower. It could weasel into the tiniest cracks and fill the tank with fire.


On power armor, the fuel would burn right on the surface of the armor. Eventually melting the joints, which are made of flexible material(presumably something akin to rubber) and would present a weak spot. The close proximity of the flames could also get into the power systems of the backpack. It could also melt the power cables or eye lenses. Or maybe the armor was previously compromised by an enemy attack that left an area the fuel could get into.

Naturally its not an instant kill, hence why you still get a save against it.

I feel like I'm pretty much reiterating at this point but yeah I think it depends. At point blank, I think bolt rounds pretty much punch through everything. At a distance though its a little different. There's also the fact that there's a secondary explosion after the round actually hits so, assuming the round doesn't deflect off the plates, the actual detonation of the the bolt will really damage if not destroy the armor plating. It's entirely up to discretion though because space marines have been shown many times in novels to be capable of running through heavy bolter fire with just a few dents and cracks. I've always wondered about this question myself because if the armor actually followed consistent tougness, nothing would ever get done in SM vs Chaos SM battles. Both sides would simply be shooting at each other with neither side causing any real harm.

Well there is also the question of if the hit was solid or just glancing.

Power armor has lots of curves, so unless the bolt actually hits it dead on its going to just deflect.

Bolt shells actually only explode if they penetrate a target, not just on impact. Many times they are described as just deforming against the surface of armor before deflecting without exploding. The explosion is "mass-reactive", meaning it requires surrounding mass to trigger it. Its not a simple impact explosive.

 Psienesis wrote:
Just one.

Agreed. Bolt rounds are deadly. I'd argue that one shot is enough to go through armor easy. It's the endurance that keeps a marine alive for shot two or three. Unless you're Fulgrim a shot to the head is always lights out.

Inkubas wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Just one.

Agreed. Bolt rounds are deadly. I'd argue that one shot is enough to go through armor easy. It's the endurance that keeps a marine alive for shot two or three. Unless you're Fulgrim a shot to the head is always lights out.

Yea, but the bolt round explodes when it penetrates, which can mean a big crater where it hit, with shrapnel traveling throughout your body, shredding flesh, bones, and organs, rupturing them, causing tremendous internal bleeding, and in most cases, instant death. But throughout the fluff, in book's, the games, and on the tabletop, that's not consistent, there's a fair chance the target can survive and continue fighting. So I assume from that, that the armor offers more than just a reassurance for protection.

What I'm saying is, given the description of a bolter round, even a person with the physiology of a primarch, I have serious doubt they can get hit in the head, chest, stomach, or pelvic region and survive. And if they get hit in a limb, there's almost 100% chance that the limb will be gone forever.

You had ridiculously thick flack armor, it will stop a shuriken by eating up its force, thus eventually stopping the blow.

Shuriken rounds are mono-molecular shards of a crystalline substance. Flak armor is like kevlar... great for stopping the relatively blunt impact of a bullet, absolutely terrible at stopping an edged weapon (like a knife) without a metal, ceramic or other hard-material insert or plate.

Flak armor is about as effective against shurikens as a t-shirt. The discs/darts/shards simply cut right through it, since they do not mushroom or flatten like a standard bullet would.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

Inkubas wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Just one.

Agreed. Bolt rounds are deadly. I'd argue that one shot is enough to go through armor easy. It's the endurance that keeps a marine alive for shot two or three. Unless you're Fulgrim a shot to the head is always lights out.

Yea, but the bolt round explodes when it penetrates, which can mean a big crater where it hit, with shrapnel traveling throughout your body, shredding flesh, bones, and organs, rupturing them, causing tremendous internal bleeding, and in most cases, instant death. But throughout the fluff, in book's, the games, and on the tabletop, that's not consistent, there's a fair chance the target can survive and continue fighting. So I assume from that, that the armor offers more than just a reassurance for protection.

What I'm saying is, given the description of a bolter round, even a person with the physiology of a primarch, I have serious doubt they can get hit in the head, chest, stomach, or pelvic region and survive. And if they get hit in a limb, there's almost 100% chance that the limb will be gone forever.

Primarchs aren't human, they're demigods/deities incarnate in the flesh. Fire a boltgun at one and the shell will ping off their skin (maybe inflicting a flesh wound), shoot a lascannon point blank directly at their chest and they'll simply shrug it off. It's fairly obvious the warp had a hand in their creation.

1.

It may be the first hit or it may be the twelfth hit, but it is only one round that has to get through. Armour doesn't magically suck up shots until it reaches a set number and then it fails, each shot tries to penetrate the armour on its own and succeeds or fails on its own.

Now the odds of penetration vary. A Bolter round has about 1/3 of getting through SM armour, 1/2 of getting thoughTau armour and is not stopped by Guardsman armour whatsoever on the table top. In the fluff these numbers are skewed somewhat with Bolter rounds being stopped by nothing short of Power Armour, but always being stopped by Power Armour except when dramatically appropriate.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Burning liquid tends to get into even the smallest cracks.

In WW2, the worst thing a tanker could encounter was a flamethrower. It could weasel into the tiniest cracks and fill the tank with fire.


On power armor, the fuel would burn right on the surface of the armor. Eventually melting the joints, which are made of flexible material(presumably something akin to rubber) and would present a weak spot. The close proximity of the flames could also get into the power systems of the backpack. It could also melt the power cables or eye lenses. Or maybe the armor was previously compromised by an enemy attack that left an area the fuel could get into.

Naturally its not an instant kill, hence why you still get a save against it.

Also fire is, like, really hot?

If it burns on the surface for long enough just the heat will penetrate the armour and cook the wearer. As noted above it doesn't have to actually kill the wearer to make them combat ineffective. Blinded or major muscle damage would do just as well, or even just burning out the power circuits of the armour or jamming a limb in place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:


Now the odds of penetration vary. A Bolter round has about 1/3 of getting through SM armour, 1/2 of getting thoughTau armour and is not stopped by Guardsman armour whatsoever on the table top. In the fluff these numbers are skewed somewhat with Bolter rounds being stopped by nothing short of Power Armour, but always being stopped by Power Armour except when dramatically appropriate.

Nope... The probability that a model firing a bolter in one turn causes telling damage on the target is reduced by 2/3s by the presence of power armour and 1/2 by the presence of carapace. Flak armour is deemed to flimsy to provide any effective protection, although failing the roll to wound could easily be explained by the armour helping to stop a round or shrapnel fragments rather than the round bouncing off the wearer's skin. The roll of a single dice to hit does not represent the firing of a single round. Abstraction abounds in 40k.

A few. Most of the time I see them taking more then one shot to bring down an enemy and I think that is primary because of story reasons. One stroke battles are kind of dull. You want there to be some trade in fire.

One thing to keep in mind is that they are described as powerful being like mini grenades, but everything else in 40k is just as powerful. I can even see flack armor catching one or two rounds. Though not as many as tau armor would Particularly if it hits that big plate thing. Elder armor I kind of don't see it blocking any rounds though. Mostly because I picture eldar as the type to just doge the bullets and you tend not to be able to doge bullets and absorb them. It's a rule.

I don't see flak armor stopping a bolt round. Those things are designed to be armor piercing... it's like putting up your standard "bullet-proof" jacket against an AK firing an API round... that jacket ain't stopping jack gak.

Flinty, I was responding to the odds of going through the armour. My assertions make no account of who's wearing it. Not that the ability of the round to go through armour and the ability to wound an in armoured target are related (indeed, armour penetrating ammunition in reality is generally not as good at creating serious wounds as non AP ammo).