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Who cares if they're all white?

People who like diversity in their worlds, fictional and otherwise?

Players who may not, themselves, be white males?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Anyone with even a basic understanding of biology knows that sub-species are a real thing and that there are, yes, different sub-species (races) of humans. Different IQ averages, different muscle and ligament insertions and differing tolerances are all due to having evolved in different places in the world.

Id just like to point out that the differences in IQ arent based on ethnicities. Or at least they arent based on the *genetics* of ethnicities. Its mostly society that is to blame, basically. And some psychological stuff based on biases. Works for everyone, too. You mightve heard about an experiment where girls and boys were tested for their maths abilities, where one group of girls was made aware of the fact that they were competing against boys and the other was not? Those that knew did significantly worse than the ones that didnt.

Anyway, getting off topic here... but that part just really annoyed me.

Diversity on the tabletop is in the hands of everyone with a paintbrush.

I've got black Night Lords, along with black Eldar and Chaos etc. Just easier for me to paint my own color, even if there are paints for specific shades of white.

There are all kinds in the Imperium and beyond. The problem you're seeing, which I thought of myself, was that you only have people telling you rather than it being shown on any of the pics or artworks, etc. Same thing with gender, but I won't go there as there's another thread for that already. (which is actually on warseer, not here.. )

There'd be less questions about races in 40k if they'd just show us there are...and not in a snippet of fluff, or 3rd party game, or that one guy in a book of artwork where all the other pictures show otherwise.

In 38 thousand years time, we will all be milky tea colour anyway

 Tyr13 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Anyone with even a basic understanding of biology knows that sub-species are a real thing and that there are, yes, different sub-species (races) of humans. Different IQ averages, different muscle and ligament insertions and differing tolerances are all due to having evolved in different places in the world.

Id just like to point out that the differences in IQ arent based on ethnicities. Or at least they arent based on the *genetics* of ethnicities. Its mostly society that is to blame, basically. And some psychological stuff based on biases. Works for everyone, too. You mightve heard about an experiment where girls and boys were tested for their maths abilities, where one group of girls was made aware of the fact that they were competing against boys and the other was not? Those that knew did significantly worse than the ones that didnt.

Anyway, getting off topic here... but that part just really annoyed me.

Given that there are numerous studies which shows that the different RACES have different IQ averages, I can't see how society is to blame.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

Or rather, the proof is in the pudding. If Africans were so intelligent how did they become so overwhelmingly beaten by Europeans? How could the Mayans in all of their infinite wisdom be removed from their kingdom? How is it that Europeans have made huge technological prowess while other peoples wallowed in their own filth. Some of these groups today haven't even gotten past spears.

Also I haven't heard about your particular anecdote, would appreciate being shot a link! Sounds interesting to me.

Prolly cause Black, Latino, ect are hard to pull of on a model. Black is kinda easier, but still hard.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Tyr13 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Anyone with even a basic understanding of biology knows that sub-species are a real thing and that there are, yes, different sub-species (races) of humans. Different IQ averages, different muscle and ligament insertions and differing tolerances are all due to having evolved in different places in the world.

Id just like to point out that the differences in IQ arent based on ethnicities. Or at least they arent based on the *genetics* of ethnicities. Its mostly society that is to blame, basically. And some psychological stuff based on biases. Works for everyone, too. You mightve heard about an experiment where girls and boys were tested for their maths abilities, where one group of girls was made aware of the fact that they were competing against boys and the other was not? Those that knew did significantly worse than the ones that didnt.

Anyway, getting off topic here... but that part just really annoyed me.

Given that there are numerous studies which shows that the different RACES have different IQ averages, I can't see how society is to blame.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

Or rather, the proof is in the pudding. If Africans were so intelligent how did they become so overwhelmingly beaten by Europeans? How could the Mayans in all of their infinite wisdom be removed from their kingdom? How is it that Europeans have made huge technological prowess while other peoples wallowed in their own filth. Some of these groups today haven't even gotten past spears.

Also I haven't heard about your particular anecdote, would appreciate being shot a link! Sounds interesting to me.

Foolish, ever been to London? I dated black people who are far smarter than me and Asian people far dumber, its down to the person, background and socity, don't bring race into this at all, why were Africans beaten 300 years ago? Because they never needed to develop, they had food, trade and socity in the same way everyone else did, may i add, China and Japan also had europeans take parts of their empires, Thats when China had gunpowder in 1AD! I live with my girlfriend in China and theres many very clever africans at uni studying things i would NEVER be able to understand and these people are from 3rd world countries. My friend (Chinese) went to Africa, she said parts were better than the UK...

You chat gak about biology...well i can outrun a Kenyan and a Chinese can outrun me...

Last of all, how many black people (Africans, carribeans and African Americans, mixed race?)do you know? How many Asians do you know (Arab, Chinese, Khmer?)

I paint my troops Black and Asian just to annoy the people like you at my FLGS. Plus, black models are very easy to paint, rinox hide, earthshade and doombull brown, way easier than white skin.

One race=Human race

I've seen loads of negro guardsmen, there is also a negro inquisitor in dawn of war!

 tau tse tung wrote:
I live with my girlfriend in China and theres many very clever africans at uni studying things i would NEVER be able to understand and these people are from 3rd world countries.

Are there many Africans studying in China ? I thought eastern Asian countries were quite racist. Well, not apartheid-level racism, but still more than in most western countries. Or at least more openly, with less stigma associated to it.

 tau tse tung wrote:
I paint my troops Black and Asian just to annoy the people like you at my FLGS.

Personally, I paint my troops black because it is original, looks good, and is quite easy to do. Annoying people may be a totally unplanned for and unexpected extra. How often does it happen, really ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 tau tse tung wrote:
I live with my girlfriend in China and theres many very clever africans at uni studying things i would NEVER be able to understand and these people are from 3rd world countries.

Are there many Africans studying in China ? I thought eastern Asian countries were quite racist. Well, not apartheid-level racism, but still more than in most western countries. Or at least more openly, with less stigma associated to it.

 tau tse tung wrote:
I paint my troops Black and Asian just to annoy the people like you at my FLGS.

Personally, I paint my troops black because it is original, looks good, and is quite easy to do. Annoying people may be a totally unplanned for and unexpected extra. How often does it happen, really ?

1. 小和山 (Xiaoheshan) is a town west of Hangzhou, Zhejiang, i would say 60% Chinese 35% African and rest is Arab or white, accordng to them in this povince its no different from Europe. There are even more in Guangzhou, Shanghai and Beijing than here, all places very little racism, i had more trouble walking with a Black girl in London than they do walking with a Chinese partner here.

2. I did ask the question why are there no minorites with my ex (who was mixed race, who was White+Black but looked Asian) My army was based on the Chinese army anyway but we then just added black people naturaly, around the same time a boy (much younger than me or my ex) made very nasty comments to her. This happened by coincidence around the same time. It happens quite alot, i saw a boy rub a mixed race's kids hair for good luck and a my ex was made fun of very often for how she looked (may i add most people regarded her as very beautiful, they made fun of her just for simply looking black/asain), in the end the boy got kicked out for calling my army "Ch**k team" to the Chinese theme. Once a GW staff member also commented on my current GF by saying "CHING CHONG CHINA GIRL RIKE YOU" I have posted both these stories in a thread abou the worst people you have ever played or faced.

Well there was 3 guys in predat i mean catachans, one was black and his name was Mac. Another was Dillon, who loved his secrets (toth??) and the last was the predator who they made look whitish and the chopper pilot at the end irl. Just in case you didn't know.

I cant really see, say the swiss turning coffee coloured, even irl. I used to think that would happen, I don't so much these days. The environment will bleach them as fast as it gets breed into them. Same as if you sent the swiss to live in africa. Eventually they'll turn into what ever colour guarantee's the best chance of survival.

The Emp initiated a pogrom at them for believing in mumbo jumbo which in the general even handed way he deals with things. wiped out the population of africa

And to stir the pot a bit.
When the great diaspora happened i can't see them sending the uneducated out there. Which would cut down on the numbers sent out, compared to whites, but would probably make everyone asiatic

 tau tse tung wrote:
I have posted both these stories in a thread abou the worst people you have ever played or faced.

Yeah, I remember. And you maybe remember about the guy that said my Sisters could not be black because Sisters had to be pure , I am almost sure I posted that story in this same thread. But really, I have more misogynist comments than racist one. And even the misogynist comments are hopefully not common.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 tau tse tung wrote:
I have posted both these stories in a thread abou the worst people you have ever played or faced.

Yeah, I remember. And you maybe remember about the guy that said my Sisters could not be black because Sisters had to be pure , I am almost sure I posted that story in this same thread. But really, I have more misogynist comments than racist one. And even the misogynist comments are hopefully not common.

Yeah, thats discusting, i'm guessing because prices are going up it only attracts the rich-who don't really mix with normal people and just arnt in contact with them. We get misogynist comments too. I get pretty awful ones about "my QT 3.14 high socks asain" and stuff, but take it less deeply due to it coming from guys that have never held a girls hand, let alone been in a relationship.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Given that there are numerous studies which shows that the different RACES have different IQ averages, I can't see how society is to blame.

Because societal station and education has massive impact on intelligence. It was long thought that men are more intelligent than women, and in past they often were, because they were brought up differently and received better education. Now (in counties where there is decent gender equality) both genders score pretty equally on IQ tests. Similarly gap in IQ scores of different 'races' has lessened over the years. Unless you assume some secret genetic manipulation is going on, this has to be due societal development and minorities getting treated more fairly, strongly implying that the IQ gap is caused by societal reasons. Furthermore, treating blacks as single 'race' is just crazy. Africa has massive genetic diversity and a Finn and an Indonesian will have more common genes than people from two different parts of Africa.

Or rather, the proof is in the pudding. If Africans were so intelligent how did they become so overwhelmingly beaten by Europeans? How could the Mayans in all of their infinite wisdom be removed from their kingdom? How is it that Europeans have made huge technological prowess while other peoples wallowed in their own filth. Some of these groups today haven't even gotten past spears.

Oh for feth's sake, what racist bs. Different cultures in different parts of the world have developed technologies in different times and have been dominant for various reasons. Where were your ancestors when Egyptians built pyramids?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

As for this topic, my Imperial Guard are all white/Aryan. B-b-but muh diversity?!!!

I have never heard a person who was not some sort of a racist refer to white people as Aryans.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Salamanders are actually black-black, not African-black. Jet black black. Crayola Black black.

Well, they used to be African-black, until GW for some reason changed that.

Some of my Sisters are even brunette (gasp!)

 Psienesis wrote:
Salamanders are actually black-black, not African-black. Jet black black. Crayola Black black.

Really? Huh, most people don't paint them like that. Thanks for the correction.

Because A) pitch black is very difficult to paint well, and B) there was a short period in which they were retconned to be african-black for political correctness reasons, the crayola-black being too close to the racism-associated Gollywog image.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Because A) pitch black is very difficult to paint well, and B) there was a short period in which they were retconned to be african-black for political correctness reasons, the crayola-black being too close to the racism-associated Gollywog image.

It was not a short period and it was not a retcon, coal-black was the retcon They were originally African-black and it that lasted (IIRC) till fourth edition.

 Crimson wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Because A) pitch black is very difficult to paint well, and B) there was a short period in which they were retconned to be african-black for political correctness reasons, the crayola-black being too close to the racism-associated Gollywog image.

It was not a short period and it was not a retcon, coal-black was the retcon They were originally African-black and it that lasted (IIRC) till fourth edition.

Well salamanders just got less cool...

tau tse tung wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Tyr13 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Anyone with even a basic understanding of biology knows that sub-species are a real thing and that there are, yes, different sub-species (races) of humans. Different IQ averages, different muscle and ligament insertions and differing tolerances are all due to having evolved in different places in the world.

Id just like to point out that the differences in IQ arent based on ethnicities. Or at least they arent based on the *genetics* of ethnicities. Its mostly society that is to blame, basically. And some psychological stuff based on biases. Works for everyone, too. You mightve heard about an experiment where girls and boys were tested for their maths abilities, where one group of girls was made aware of the fact that they were competing against boys and the other was not? Those that knew did significantly worse than the ones that didnt.

Anyway, getting off topic here... but that part just really annoyed me.

Given that there are numerous studies which shows that the different RACES have different IQ averages, I can't see how society is to blame.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

Or rather, the proof is in the pudding. If Africans were so intelligent how did they become so overwhelmingly beaten by Europeans? How could the Mayans in all of their infinite wisdom be removed from their kingdom? How is it that Europeans have made huge technological prowess while other peoples wallowed in their own filth. Some of these groups today haven't even gotten past spears.

Also I haven't heard about your particular anecdote, would appreciate being shot a link! Sounds interesting to me.

Foolish, ever been to London? I dated black people who are far smarter than me and Asian people far dumber, its down to the person, background and socity, don't bring race into this at all, why were Africans beaten 300 years ago? Because they never needed to develop, they had food, trade and socity in the same way everyone else did, may i add, China and Japan also had europeans take parts of their empires, Thats when China had gunpowder in 1AD! I live with my girlfriend in China and theres many very clever africans at uni studying things i would NEVER be able to understand and these people are from 3rd world countries. My friend (Chinese) went to Africa, she said parts were better than the UK...

You chat gak about biology...well i can outrun a Kenyan and a Chinese can outrun me...

Last of all, how many black people (Africans, carribeans and African Americans, mixed race?)do you know? How many Asians do you know (Arab, Chinese, Khmer?)

I paint my troops Black and Asian just to annoy the people like you at my FLGS. Plus, black models are very easy to paint, rinox hide, earthshade and doombull brown, way easier than white skin.

One race=Human race

Muh...muh anecdotes! Anecdotes everywhere! Guess what, in everything there are outliers. Seriously, come back with at least one credible source and we'll talk.

See let me throw in an anecdote too, for fun: I've never met a black person more intelligent than me and the majority of Asians I've met have done better in the sciences than I have

Crimson wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Given that there are numerous studies which shows that the different RACES have different IQ averages, I can't see how society is to blame.

Because societal station and education has massive impact on intelligence. It was long thought that men are more intelligent than women, and in past they often were, because they were brought up differently and received better education. Now (in counties where there is decent gender equality) both genders score pretty equally on IQ tests. Similarly gap in IQ scores of different 'races' has lessened over the years. Unless you assume some secret genetic manipulation is going on, this has to be due societal development and minorities getting treated more fairly, strongly implying that the IQ gap is caused by societal reasons. Furthermore, treating blacks as single 'race' is just crazy. Africa has massive genetic diversity and a Finn and an Indonesian will have more common genes than people from two different parts of Africa.

Would appreciate seeing some citations for some of these claims as I have included my own in earlier posts, espeically for things like "Africans are more diverse than Europeans". Furthermore if women are 'just' as intelligent as men then why have the overwhelming majority of inventions and advancements been by males? And if you say "well women were oppressed by men!", then this implies that there is an inherent inequality that women weren't able to get over.

Or rather, the proof is in the pudding. If Africans were so intelligent how did they become so overwhelmingly beaten by Europeans? How could the Mayans in all of their infinite wisdom be removed from their kingdom? How is it that Europeans have made huge technological prowess while other peoples wallowed in their own filth. Some of these groups today haven't even gotten past spears.

Oh for feth's sake, what racist bs. Different cultures in different parts of the world have developed technologies in different times and have been dominant for various reasons. Where were your ancestors when Egyptians built pyramids?

Oh boo hoo, it's racist because it's TRUE?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

As for this topic, my Imperial Guard are all white/Aryan. B-b-but muh diversity?!!!

I have never heard a person who was not some sort of a racist refer to white people as Aryans.

Nice comeback, you sure convinced me with your hot anecdotes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Salamanders are actually black-black, not African-black. Jet black black. Crayola Black black.

Well, they used to be African-black, until GW for some reason changed that.

It's because they're racist of course

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Idolator wrote:


Race is a fictional construct anyway. It doesn't truly exist. There are physical traits that are more prominently expressed in certain regions due to isolation and environmental demands. Africans can tolerate prolonged sun exposure better while Europeans can withstand prolonged sunlight deprivation better.

There is so much cognitive dissonance here: "Race is a fictional construct, but here's some example of how there are different sub-species of humans anyway".

Anyone with even a basic understanding of biology knows that sub-species are a real thing and that there are, yes, different sub-species (races) of humans. Different IQ averages, different muscle and ligament insertions and differing tolerances are all due to having evolved in different places in the world.

As for this topic, my Imperial Guard are all white/Aryan. B-b-but muh diversity?!!!
They're all from a hive world so it makes perfect sense. A ton of Imperial humans are from hive worlds and thus it's logical that many of them are more pale-skinned due to evolutionary demands.

I think your idea died out, along with eugenics, in May 1945.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Idolator wrote:


Race is a fictional construct anyway. It doesn't truly exist. There are physical traits that are more prominently expressed in certain regions due to isolation and environmental demands. Africans can tolerate prolonged sun exposure better while Europeans can withstand prolonged sunlight deprivation better.

There is so much cognitive dissonance here: "Race is a fictional construct, but here's some example of how there are different sub-species of humans anyway".

Anyone with even a basic understanding of biology knows that sub-species are a real thing and that there are, yes, different sub-species (races) of humans. Different IQ averages, different muscle and ligament insertions and differing tolerances are all due to having evolved in different places in the world.

As for this topic, my Imperial Guard are all white/Aryan. B-b-but muh diversity?!!!
They're all from a hive world so it makes perfect sense. A ton of Imperial humans are from hive worlds and thus it's logical that many of them are more pale-skinned due to evolutionary demands.

I think your idea died out, along with eugenics, in May 1945.

Which is too bad because eugenics had very practical applications. If you don't believe me, you could've asked the soldiers that were often assisted by German Shepherds.
http://www.thegermanshepherd.org/use-as-military-dog/world-war-i-and-ii.html

Funnily enough, eugenics is making a big comeback with the mapping of the human genome and soon enough it will be here again, in the form of commercial eugenics. Dangerous diseases will waste away and ultimately we will save lives.
http://genetics.live.radicaldesigns.org/downloads/200303_difftakes_simoncelli.pdf

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Which is too bad because eugenics had very practical applications. If you don't believe me, you could've asked the soldiers that were often assisted by German Shepherds.
http://www.thegermanshepherd.org/use-as-military-dog/world-war-i-and-ii.html

Funnily enough, eugenics is making a big comeback with the mapping of the human genome and soon enough it will be here again, in the form of commercial eugenics. Dangerous diseases will waste away and ultimately we will save lives.
http://genetics.live.radicaldesigns.org/downloads/200303_difftakes_simoncelli.pdf

Of course you're right, it's a real shame eugenics died out. So much good science there.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Which is too bad because eugenics had very practical applications. If you don't believe me, you could've asked the soldiers that were often assisted by German Shepherds.
http://www.thegermanshepherd.org/use-as-military-dog/world-war-i-and-ii.html

Funnily enough, eugenics is making a big comeback with the mapping of the human genome and soon enough it will be here again, in the form of commercial eugenics. Dangerous diseases will waste away and ultimately we will save lives.
http://genetics.live.radicaldesigns.org/downloads/200303_difftakes_simoncelli.pdf

Of course you're right, it's a real shame eugenics died out. So much good science there.

It actually is, of course unless you're okay with living with people with muscle-wasting diseases, Down-syndrome, and other preventable issues then that's your right. I don't think that we should stand to see people suffer like this especially if it's preventable.

Of course, If you're going to argue that something should be illegal just because it can be used in an "unethical" way then I'm sure you'd also be fine with banning knives, cars, and education.

Its a good thing I play Raven Guard then as I don't have to deal with crap like this. No agonising over political correctness and whether I've met my quotas for non-white ethnic minority Space Marines. My Space Marines aren't white, they're albino. For all I know, half of them could be albino africans.

(edit) Actually, considering GW's recent retcons inserting some Native American cultural references, they're probably all american indians

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

I think your idea died out, along with eugenics, in May 1945.

This is without a doubt the best post in this thread.

Vladsimpaler, please for the love of god stop. I didn't think it would get worse than "I've never met a black person more intelligent than me" but then you started advocating eugenics and it's like a whole new level of racism and ignorance opened up. Just... stop.

Or keep going, it's entertaining seeing someone stick to their racist guns instead of backpedaling and trying not to sound like human garbage.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Would appreciate seeing some citations for some of these claims as I have included my own in earlier posts, espeically for things like "Africans are more diverse than Europeans".

That's pretty common knowledge these days, at least among people who understand anything about genetics (however, it is pretty evident that you're not among this group.). Here's one article on it:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/30/AR2009043002485.html

Quote:
"Africans are more genetically diverse than the inhabitants of the rest of the world combined, according to a sweeping study that carried researchers into remote regions to sample the bloodlines of more than 100 distinct populations."

Furthermore if women are 'just' as intelligent as men then why have the overwhelming majority of inventions and advancements been by males? And if you say "well women were oppressed by men!", then this implies that there is an inherent inequality that women weren't able to get over.

So the IQ tests that show that black people are on average stupider than white people are totally definite proof, but the same IQ tests that show women are on average as smart as men somehow aren't?

And historically, women obviously were oppressed, that probably was in many cases originally based on greater physical strength of men. However, there actually is one genetic factor, and it is that X chromosome affects intellect and women have two of them while men have only one. This means that male intelligence is more varied (to use a RPG analogy men roll their intelligence owith one die, while women take average of two dice.) This means that there are more men that are geniuses but there are also more men that are utter morons. Averages are same for both genders, as are the extremes, men are just more likely to be on the extreme ends of the curve than women.

Oh boo hoo, it's racist because it's TRUE?

It is indeed true that while your fair skinned ancestors lived in a mudhole, darker skinned people had advanced engineering, philosophy and art.

Nice comeback, you sure convinced me with your hot anecdotes.

It is quite obvious that you don't care what other people think about you, otherwise you would not be spewing the neo-nazi propaganda like you do. And word 'Aryan' has quite specific connotations these days, and most people wouldn't use it.

Getting a bit tense in here gents. Keep in mind Rule One is Be Polite. Rule Two is Stay On-Topic. I don't think any 40k Background is the right place to debate contemporary or 20-century eugenics. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all seriousness, I'm just going to delete further off-topic comments about eugenics. If you guys like, you can start a eugenics thread in Off-Topic.