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jae4x4 wrote:
stop trying to find loopholes in the wording of the text!

Give the order...
Shoot...
On 6's you get the precision shots...

Not every shot in the squad automatically has precision shots!

It's not a loophole in the wording of the rule, it's how the rule is worded. You can say it's not intended to be worded that way, but it's hardly a loophole. It's even reinforced by the wording of Illic Nightspear's Sharpshot rule that ALL shots fired by models in a unit ordered to "Take Aim!" are precision shots.

Precision shot does NOT = 6's to hit you choose the target.

Precision shot = you choose the target (which happens to occur on sniper weapons and characters when they roll a 6, or on Illic Nightspear's unit for all shots).

Maybe the GW developers should read their own rules some time.

Maybe the rules in the codex and on the cards themselves are different... but I'm guessing they are probably worded the same way. We'll find out in a week and a half I guess!

jae4x4 wrote:
stop trying to find loopholes in the wording of the text!

Give the order...
Shoot...
On 6's you get the precision shots...

Not every shot in the squad automatically has precision shots!

Dear lord, its not a loophole, its how the damn thing is written.

The sixes bit is part of the character rules, hence why it says "When a character rolls a 6 to hit, these are precision shots" End quote. It THEN goes on to explain that precision shots allow the shooter to allocate the shots. The order gives the unit precise shots, not Sniper, Not Character Shooting or anything else. Precise. Shots.

Was it meant to be sniper instead of precise shots? How should I know, I'm not a mind reader. I can only know what they wrote. And what they wrote is that when the order is passed, the unit receiving the order can pick out the best things they want to shoot out as long as they hit, no sixes required.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

jae4x4 wrote:
stop trying to find loopholes in the wording of the text!

Give the order...
Shoot...
On 6's you get the precision shots...

Not every shot in the squad automatically has precision shots!

It's not a loophole in the wording of the rule, it's how the rule is worded. You can say it's not intended to be worded that way, but it's hardly a loophole. It's even reinforced by the wording of Illic Nightspear's Sharpshot rule that ALL shots fired by models in a unit ordered to "Take Aim!" are precision shots.

Maybe the GW developers should read their own rules some time.

Maybe the rules in the codex and on the cards themselves are different... but I'm guessing they are probably worded the same way. We'll find out in a week and a half I guess!

Actually, there is a pretty important distinction. Models following the IG order have the Precision Shots special rule, while all of Illic's shots are Precision Shots. Models vs. Shots. If a Shot is a Precision Shot, then that is fairly obviously understood to be one that the firer can allocate. But what exactly does it mean for a Model to have the "Precision Shots" special rule given it's not a USR? Does it mean that all of their Shots are Precision Shots, or does it mean that they follow the rules section entitled "Precision Shots" under the character rules (which includes having to roll a 6 to hit)?

Yeah meaning that squad of generic Guardsmen gains that special rule, and the rules state that you must roll a 6 to allocate the wound to whatever model you want that,s within range of the weapon.

Yeah, that's the other fly in the ointment... Precision Shots is technically not a "special rule".

If they mean the models in the unit ordered to Take Aim! get the effects a character would get in the paragraph under the heading of Precision Shots... they worded it completely wrong, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah meaning that squad of generic Guardsmen gains that special rule, and the rules state that you must roll a 6 to allocate the wound to whatever model you want that,s within range of the weapon.

Except precision shots is NOT a special rule. There is a paragraph titled precision shots, but that doesn't mean the paragraph is the special rule "precision shots". The rulebook has a whole section of special rules, precision shot is not in it. The only time precision shots are referenced is that they are shots which you get to pick the target, precision shots are (as far as I'm aware) never referenced as a shot that needs a 6 to be able to pick it's target.

My personal interpretation is that the "Precision Shots special rule" is intended to be the section entitled "Precision Shots" in the character section. But it's certainly debatable, given GW failed to specifically name anything related to Precision Shots as a special rule.

Well that simply means there's a codex specific rule....rule that got the exact same name as a rule in the BRB.

And really, it is a special rule; they simply didn't put a big sign over it to state this; it is a special 'ability' that characters have that you can now have your basic grunts have temporarily for the moment of a shooting attack.

either GW enjoy making things complicated (with or without knowing it) or we've got too much time on our hand and we're splitting hairs.

I thought we had seen a snippet from the ST Codex showing them as troops with Valk/Vend options for dedicated transports, but now I can't find the pic and I didn't see it in the first page.

Anyone hot link it again? I'm trying to get a feel for point cost/options for running ST in Valks.

And what the hell does "salvo" do again?

If they drop the Griffon i will be upset, spent a lot of time making one crewed with Steel Legion. I am still crossing my fingures for a plastic Salamander. If they keep/make both my faith in GW might be restored for at least a month.

Salvo is full range and full number of shots if you are stationary, Half range and half shots if you've moved. So the Hot-Shot Volley gun is 4 shots at 24" if stationary, 2 shots at 12" if you move.

Odds are the Griffon will be gone, and no Salamander, though one could argue that a Taurox counts as would work.....

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Well that simply means there's a codex specific rule....rule that got the exact same name as a rule in the BRB.

And really, it is a special rule; they simply didn't put a big sign over it to state this; it is a special 'ability' that characters have that you can now have your basic grunts have temporarily for the moment of a shooting attack.

either GW enjoy making things complicated (with or without knowing it) or we've got too much time on our hand and we're splitting hairs.

The thing is, not only is it not in the special rules section, the paragraph is not worded in such a way to make you think that:

Precision shot = 6 to hit allows you to pick target.

That's just not how it's worded. Actually read some of the special rules, they all start with or contain something like "a unit with this rule", "...models with the Rampage special rule...", "Relentless models can...", "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule...", "If a model has the Rending...", "...Wounds from a weapon with the Pinning special rule...".

Not only is "Precision Shots" not in the special rules section, it's not written in such a way as to imply that 6's to hit is part of the precision shot rule.

Anyway, I'll drop it for now, we can pick up this discussion again when the codex comes out and we can see if it's equally poorly worded.

 kir44n wrote:
Salvo is full range and full number of shots if you are stationary, Half range and half shots if you've moved. So the Hot-Shot Volley gun is 4 shots at 24" if stationary, 2 shots at 12" if you move.

Thank you!

everyone in the squad allocates their shots

Good lord thats insanity

An order that nets a whole unit Precision Shot eh...that's going to get FAQ'd with a quickness.

And can't math solve this whole debacle concerning what Precision Shot actually does?

Example:
If X happens, Y is activated. If X doesn't happen, Y doesn't activate. The general Character precision shot rule, yes?

The orders just change the parameters of Y activating. It's broken I think, but honestly I don't get how that's confusing.

You're trying to apply a consistent, logic based formula to the mess of 40k.

Its admirable, but ultimately futile.

I also don't think it'll get FAQ'd. I'd be surprised if it did, but seeing as how other head-scratching rules/issues haven't had a FAQ yet, I wouldn't hold my breath for this.

Get ready for the Precision Shot Mega Thread in YMDC.

 Frankenberry wrote:
An order that nets a whole unit Precision Shot eh...that's going to get FAQ'd with a quickness.

And can't math solve this whole debacle concerning what Precision Shot actually does?

Example:
If X happens, Y is activated. If X doesn't happen, Y doesn't activate. The general Character precision shot rule, yes?

The orders just change the parameters of Y activating. It's broken I think, but honestly I don't get how that's confusing.

Yeah, using that example, if X (character or sniper rolls a 6 to hit) happens, Y (precision shot) happens. The Take Aim rule is if X happens (unit has Take Aim order), Y happens (precision shots).

Maybe the codex will be worded differently, or maybe the IG codex does the stupid thing of introducing a special rule called "precision shot" even though we already have an effect in the BRB called "precision shot", lol.

Anybody feel like speculating what we'll be getting in the new IG battleforce/army set?

 Sir Bubbles wrote:
Anybody feel like speculating what we'll be getting in the new IG battleforce/army set?

It'll be interesting to see if they do something like the Tyranid swam, which was a really good bargain.

We haven't gotten a FAQ in a year.

I think it's safe to say that at this point GW isn't that concerned.

That said, they could be compiling faqs to release them all at once in the "7E" book, whatever that is.

Hey, the subject line now states that the IG Warlord Traits are on the first page, but I don't see them. Am I missing it or is it not yet revealed?

Strange that the storm trooper codex is still not up on black library for pre-order.

Anyone else wondering if there could be another unknown tank that hasn't been seen? The WD said when it was talking about the tank commader that there was new never before tanks. It said something to that effect I can't find it now.....

General Hobbs wrote:


Odds are the Griffon will be gone, and no Salamander, though one could argue that a Taurox counts as would work.....

Man... If this is the truth the only good thing IMO to come from this new codex is a Commissar on the front cover of the over priced codex.

Wakshaani wrote:
Hey, the subject line now states that the IG Warlord Traits are on the first page, but I don't see them. Am I missing it or is it not yet revealed?

The subject line's a little misleading - it got me too. There's a mention of the fact that we're getting new Warlord Traits in one of the pictures, but we don't yet know what they are.

 Dakkamite wrote:

everyone in the squad allocates their shots

Good lord thats insanity

Is it? On a Marine squad, how many wounds is a regular blob of 20 Guardsmen really going to generate?

Obviously vague mathammer: 20 guys...10 hit, 3.33 wound, ~1 failed save. So 20 Guardsmen should kill 1 specific Marine...2 if they're within 12". That's not really that OP IMO.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

everyone in the squad allocates their shots

Good lord thats insanity

Is it? On a Marine squad, how many wounds is a regular blob of 20 Guardsmen really going to generate at max range?

Obviously vague mathammer: 20 guys...10 hit, 3.33 wound, ~1 failed save. So 20 Guardsmen should kill 1 specific Marine...2 if they're within 12". That's not really that OP IMO.

When that marine is guaranteed to be the Special/Heavy weapon guy the calculus changes.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

everyone in the squad allocates their shots

Good lord thats insanity

Is it? On a Marine squad, how many wounds is a regular blob of 20 Guardsmen really going to generate?

Obviously vague mathammer: 20 guys...10 hit, 3.33 wound, ~1 failed save. So 20 Guardsmen should kill 1 specific Marine...2 if they're within 12". That's not really that OP IMO.

Yes, the lasguns kill 1 specific marine. Throw in the 2 Plasma Guns or Lascannons, there's another 1 specific marine dead. So you've killed 2 specific marines... the one with the power weapon and the one with a plasma gun or heavy weapon, thus heavily reducing the effectiveness of the squad.

Even worse if it's a herald.

10 guys, 20 shots= 10 hit, 5 wound, 2 save for 3 wounds.

Dead Herald, goodbye Grimoire.

I mean, yah. It's not *super* broken, what with LOS and stuff. But there is a pretty strong utility there.

The only clarification it would need is a listing in the Codex for "Precision Shots" as a special rule.

Because like I showed above, right now it does one of two things.

1. Nothing, because there is technically no such thing as the Precision Shot "special rule".
or
2. Functions exactly how it Precision Shots (notice the plurality) listed in the Characters section, which requires 6s to hit.


The Orders Card for "Take Aim!" says "all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot special rule." They have a rule. Rules get followed in their entirety. Otherwise they're just suggestions or guidelines, lol. Anybody attempting to interpret that order card as automatically making all shots count as Precision Shots either doesn't understand how the conventions of the English language work in regards to section headers, or is trolling.

I mean, the rules for Ilic make it quite obvious. His rule is a modification to a rule he already has since he's a character. Since he gets Precision Shots by default, Sharpshot modifies that rule, and he gets them automatically for all hits unless making a Snap Shot. The ordered units getting the Precision Shot special rule didn't already have it. So they now do.

But again, since technically there's no such thing as the Precision Shots special rule, they don't get anything by the strictest interpretation of the rules. However, since we have to assume that the Card isn't written to trick players into doing something pointless (April Fools!), we'll have to either

A: use our brains
or
B: assume that GW already thought of this and included a "Precision Shot" special rule in Codex: Astra Militarum.