Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Miguelsan wrote:
You are right, things change and we have to adapt but for some this feels more like:

Me: You need new brakes.
Customer: But I just bought tires a month ago! Can't you do them for free?!
Me: No... that's not how companies stay open. BTW I just went ahead and slashed the back tires.

(and I agree with that feeling even if personally I'm not that concerned for my IG army)
M.

GW is a retail company. It's no different than a food chain or an electronics store. The only way to stay open is to sell things. Expecting them to put out a codex that strengthens everything people already own is ludicrous. It would be like a game developer putting out free DLC's because they "care about their client base". What sense would that make? None. The 6th edition codices all (for the most part) follow this model. I have been on the fence about starting an IG army. With the rumors for this codex I'm sold. The things that did get nerfed honestly needed them. Anyone that says the Vendetta only needed a moderate price increase is naive at best. It was the most under priced unit in the game (barring grey hunters). All of the good things are still there. Guard are supposed to be about massed everyday joes get thrown through the meat grinder. That aspect has only gotten better. How about massed tank formations? Yep. With the introduction of tank HQ's that got better too. Lets look at the Chimera for a moment. Yea.. it has av10 side armor.. but 55 points for it was pretty darn cheap. I'm honestly thrilled about the new orders. They are something that other armies just don't get. Sure, we all would've loved regimental doctrines too but we cant have it all. I think this codex will be that diamond in the rough. As far as special characters go, I am sad to see Marbo go. I've used an allied detachment just to get him. But he was far from competitive. The important ones are still there. So why don't we all just relax and wait for the thing to actually drop before we decry GW for actually trying to turn a profit to stay in business?

 plastictrees wrote:
I don't think you know what 'marketing' means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to be fair, neither do GW, but hey ho.

Hold on, ill bring out my Advertising Textbook: Marketing- is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerins that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

What GW is doing is in itself bad marketing. They want to deliver on a product, what product is it? An update to a book people already own. What GW has to do is twofold, get people who do not own an Astra Militarum army to buy one, and to get those who already own one to buy the new book and new models it comes with.

This idea might work for people who do not have an army already, but for those who do, you effectively took out a whole bunch of units people DID care about. This is not effective marketing. If you were to take something out, you would have to put something back in of equal value so that the customer at least on a surface level FEELS like he is getting a good deal.

GW has failed from a marketing standpoint.

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I don't think you know what 'marketing' means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to be fair, neither do GW, but hey ho.

Hold on, ill bring out my Advertising Textbook: Marketing- is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerins that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

What GW is doing is in itself bad marketing. They want to deliver on a product, what product is it? An update to a book people already own. What GW has to do is twofold, get people who do not own an Astra Militarum army to buy one, and to get those who already own one to buy the new book and new models it comes with.

This idea might work for people who do not have an army already, but for those who do, you effectively took out a whole bunch of units people DID care about. This is not effective marketing. If you were to take something out, you would have to put something back in of equal value so that the customer at least on a surface level FEELS like he is getting a good deal.
GW has failed from a marketing standpoint.

So by your perspective they should hope to stay open by codex sales?

So the way I'm reading that Tank Commander rule, it sounds like you don't actually get more tanks in your list than normal? It reads like the Commander himself is HQ but the tank squadron he's in isn't HQ until the game actually starts. So the max Leman Russes in a list is still 9 as opposed to like 15. Is that how everyone else read that rule?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to having my traitor guard tank army led by actual tank commanders.

The blob is dead. 6th edition belongs to the conscripts

50 strong power blob with 5 power axes=300 points.
50 conscripts with 3 priests 1 power axe and 2 power mauls=270 points

At this point the conscripts are fearless and the blob absolutely needs an IC with ATSKNF or ld10 stubborn. The conscripts can really use another character to help ld7 priests pass their leadership tests for their battle hymns. A ld9 commissar in the new book is 25 + 15 for a power axe, but for the purpose of the math hammer being used we’ll just say it’s the same allied ld10 inquisitor or space marine HQ that the old codex would use for the blob and call both squads even Steven on leadership. As far as the priests passing tests. Odds of passing 3 out of 3 tests=57% Odds of a priest failing a single ld10 test=83% Odds of failing 2 out of 2 is 2.9% Odds of failing all 3 is less than 0.5% For simplicity’s take I’m going to assume 1 out of the 3 priests fails their test. Shred will be the first power activated. 2nd power will be reroll armor saves unless fighting a MC then it would be smash on a single priest.

Now let’s get down to the nitty gritty of CC. For simplicity’s sake I’m going to calculate to total killing power of the entire blob or conscripts unit even though we all know the entire thing will not get into cc and often a meh charge will only get 50% of the killing power into cc.

Against T4 MEQ with the blob charging
Blob has 90 attacks, 45 hit, 15 wound, 5 marines die
Blob’s power axes 20 attacks, 10 hit, 5 marines die
Blob’s total=10 marines
Conscripts 100 attacks, 75 hit, 41.6 wound, 13.888 die
Power axe priest 4 attacks, 3 hit, 2.25 dead marines
Power mauls 8 attacks, 6 hits, 5.333 wounds, 1.77 dead marines
Conscript’s total=17.9 dead marines

Dakka of the blob is 50% better, but the actual conscripts are ½ the price as the 3 IC can detach from the squad if it becomes too mauled.

The blob can add 5 plasma guns, but that’s the same cost as 25 more conscripts.

Conscripts are WS2 they die to easy=false mathematical assumption. It only means WS3 targets hit them on a 3+, and even then the math hammer goes as follows.
S3 WS3 versus blob ½ the attacks hit ½ wound 2/3 fail armor test=16.66% chance per attack to kill
S3 WS3 versus conscripts 2/3 hit ½ wound 4/9 fail armor test=14.8% chance per attack to kill
Final verdict: Conscripts are more durable against all opponents except WS3 MC and their attacks are wasted on 3 point conscripts.

Conscripts are WS2, but they still hit WS4 on a 4+ WS3 only matters when fighting WS3 targets which are usually squishy in CC anyways, or when fighting WS5 targets. How much worse does the conscripts do against a WS5 target?
Against Khorne Berserkers WS5
Power blob has same result as regular MEQ 10 dead zerkers
Conscripts 100 swings, 55.5 hits, 30.86 wounds, 10.28 dead berserkers. Power weapons still hit on a 4+ so the total is 14.3 dead berserkers to the blob’s 10.

The blob is dead. 6th edition belongs to the conscripts

 Las wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

Lets say i wanted to use Marbo again, would i use the rules from 5th editon? Sure my opponents might just let me, but then where does it stop. Should i just be able to take whatever i want from any codex and stick it in my list? Should i be able to get the best of both codexes and stick them together?

Yes; its a game. The only rules that really exist are those that you and your opponents agree on.

Also, whats stopping you from using counts as? All those artillery models can make perfectly fine demolishers or even wyverns. Its not a perfect solution, but it is definitely a solution.

To me it is a bad solution. I have already come to the conclusion that there are several different segments of people who play Warhammer. There are those who play competitively, and those who play for a more visual and narrative sense. When i look on the tabletop, i want to feel that my army looks like it should be there. I created an army from a polluted death world, and so everything had to build to that ascetic.

My friends see it differently, they see it as more of a competitive environment. I don't blame them, i just disagree with them. Ultimately it takes an agreement from both of us whether i can use a model's rules or not. In their eyes, it is either use one book, but do not combine rules from both.

I'm sure we will get all of the famous guard commanders back in the form of data slates for no other reason beyond money grab.

Playing any other game with a competitive meta and you see a patch list or changes, usually you go "oh that makes sense, this sucks but makes sense."

But GW just changes things like as if they play on a whole different level that didn't exist. Also removing things is just lame considering the obvious amounts of DLC it will just become in the future.

GW really hasn't done much to get me or alot of IG players excited, so I wouldn't be surprised if people just keep playing 5th edition or move on to other things.

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I don't think you know what 'marketing' means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to be fair, neither do GW, but hey ho.

Hold on, ill bring out my Advertising Textbook: Marketing- is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerins that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

What GW is doing is in itself bad marketing. They want to deliver on a product, what product is it? An update to a book people already own. What GW has to do is twofold, get people who do not own an Astra Militarum army to buy one, and to get those who already own one to buy the new book and new models it comes with.

This idea might work for people who do not have an army already, but for those who do, you effectively took out a whole bunch of units people DID care about. This is not effective marketing. If you were to take something out, you would have to put something back in of equal value so that the customer at least on a surface level FEELS like he is getting a good deal.
GW has failed from a marketing standpoint.

So by your perspective they should hope to stay open by codex sales?

One of Marketings biggest purposes is to keep customers. The best thing a brand can have is Brand Loyalty. If a person is going to go out and drop down his hard earned cash on a product, the company wants to know for sure that person is spending it on his brand.

GW is playing with the welfare of it's loyal customers. That is stupid marketing. They are uncommunicative and keep their design decisions close to their chest. It is not only codex sales, it is having a person buy a GW product, and have them keep buying GW products.

I have been loyal for a few years now, but they have strained my and many other peoples relationship with their actions.

I learned this gak in Advertising class at a community college, what the feth is GW actively thinking?

 BunkerBob wrote:
I'm sure we will get all of the famous guard commanders back in the form of data slates for no other reason beyond money grab.

Wouldn't be shocked by this... Maybe Major Koran and the Iron saint will show up.... He love orc battle wagons...

Because GW is trying to turn a profit by doing things that are questionable or abusive. Nerfs notwithstanding how would you feel if you were charged premium prices for second rate product?
And we have some evidence of this by going with the images posted on other places that GW is doing this. Not only rules are messy but in some places are unplayable; in the Italian dex HWT don't have a price and the translation appears to be rushed and incorrect, in the Spanish one mistranslations and formating errors are all over the place (don't wanna know what's going to happen when the Japanese dex arrives). Still GW plans to charge me full price for a defective product and according to a spanish shopowner GW doesn't allow them to return books???

What the Heck GW?

M.

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I don't think you know what 'marketing' means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to be fair, neither do GW, but hey ho.

Hold on, ill bring out my Advertising Textbook: Marketing- is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerins that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

What GW is doing is in itself bad marketing. They want to deliver on a product, what product is it? An update to a book people already own. What GW has to do is twofold, get people who do not own an Astra Militarum army to buy one, and to get those who already own one to buy the new book and new models it comes with.

This idea might work for people who do not have an army already, but for those who do, you effectively took out a whole bunch of units people DID care about. This is not effective marketing. If you were to take something out, you would have to put something back in of equal value so that the customer at least on a surface level FEELS like he is getting a good deal.
GW has failed from a marketing standpoint.

So by your perspective they should hope to stay open by codex sales?

One of Marketings biggest purposes is to keep customers. The best thing a brand can have is Brand Loyalty. If a person is going to go out and drop down his hard earned cash on a product, the company wants to know for sure that person is spending it on his brand.

GW is playing with the welfare of it's loyal customers. That is stupid marketing. They are uncommunicative and keep their design decisions close to their chest. It is not only codex sales, it is having a person buy a GW product, and have them keep buying GW products.

I have been loyal for a few years now, but they have strained my and many other peoples relationship with their actions.

I learned this gak in Advertising class at a community college, what the feth is GW actively thinking?

I agree with you. GW does need to maintain loyalty. But you can't shove profit margins of a public company by the wayside to maintain that loyalty. I also agree that it's downright crappy to have to rebuild an awesome army because of a codex update. I'm not a fan of it either. The difference is that I understand why they are doing this. The last few quarterly reviews have not been good. I love this damn game and I have since 4th. I plan on playing well past 9th. The only way for that to continue is that GW turns a profit. If someone knows of a forum where people complain about having to buy a PS4 or XboxOne to play new games point me to it. It's the same beast. We have to pay to play.

 korghan wrote:
It would be like a game developer putting out free DLC's because they "care about their client base".

But that's exactly what they used to do, before they became obsessed with trying to extract every possible dollar out of the annual version of Call of Battlefield or SportsBall instead of innovating and producing new games. Companies would release add-on bits for free, which improved customer loyalty and made the game a more appealing product. GW is in the same position: if they weren't a company full of short-sighted incompetents they could focus on making the best possible rules, and let the models sell themselves. Under that kind of policy buying, say, a Chimera kit is appealing because I know it will have high-quality rules forever and any problems will be fixed. If, instead, you have GW's buff/nerf cycle then the Chimera becomes a less appealing purchase because I have no confidence that it will be useful for more than a year or two before I have to buy something else instead. In fact, I might even just quit playing GW games entirely and give my money to a company that cares more about good rules than sacrificing quality to make a quick sale. So GW makes some extra money by facing veterans to re-buy their armies, but loses potential sales from people who get tired of the whole thing and stop buying.

And when you're analyzing GW's decisions here remember that most of GW's sales are to new players who don't own any models yet and will be buying new stuff either way. If anything the buff/nerf cycle hurts GW's sales there since ragequitting veterans flood the ebay market with cheap models instead of keeping them forever.

IG be like what the F...

Hopefully the new IG have some weapons to deal with these while still being able to capture objectives.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 PuddlePirate wrote:
Any worrd on a possible point reduction to the Russ tanks?

An anonymous source on Faeit is saying no change except for a price increase on the Demolisher, the Spanish dude who's given many leaks recently has said a price range of 120-170 points.

It remains to be seen, really.

I'll just keep hoping the Spainiard is correct

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The previous Hydra was written for 5th, and quite rightly GW has realised that giving the new Hydra ignores jink is a tad over the line. There is a fallacy here and with everyone else in this thread that the previous Codex's good units are always done right - the only exception is the Vendetta because of how blatant that it is, and still people have whined in here about it being nerfed.

I'll just ignore the rest of your post, because this is all that matters: your claim that the current Hydra is overpowered is laughably wrong. Hydras are already considered a weak choice that hardly anyone uses, and the new rules make them indisputably worse. The only reason to nerf them is if you're an incompetent moron who thinks that the game should be balanced for 6th edition based on what happened in early 5th edition. Unfortunately that kind of stupidity seems to be mandatory for working at GW...

 Stus67 wrote:


Really I just don't get end is nigh attitude that so many people have in this thread. With the amount of crying here you'd think some GW employes literally went into their backyard and strangled their dog to death in broad daylight in front of their kids or something,

Yeah fairy-nuff. Point taken and agreed with, I think that often dakka is too full of endless misery and needless crying as well, I'm just saying that this is something I do believe that some of the whinging is perfectly valid. I particularly like some of the models that were dropped, so like Irish said, I sympathize. If they removed several of the main SM characters and some of the most popular vehicles, I would be pissed.

If you want to retain credibility during these debates, as far as I see it, you need to weigh all the arguments and decide every issue on its merits, I have been called a "white knight" plenty of times by the needless haters, and now It seems I'm getting called a "hater" I think everyone could do with taking a leaf out of my book, and rather than choosing a camp and sticking with it incessantly, discussed each issue on its merits.

And while I am definitely not an endless whiner and I don't think the wheels have completely fallen off the GW wagon, many of the companies decisions of late have irritated me, and this is another one. As I said, plenty of the complaints you see on here are childish and involve throwing the baby out with the bathwater, all I am saying is that I don't for a second think that complaining about plenty of character and vehicle staples from a well known codex is one of them.

I also disagree with gypping people for things that were always part of the rulebook.

Harker and Straken for example, are two of my favorite IG minis, if they whip them out only to charge $10 for a 30 page data-slate in a month, I reckon it is fair to say that is taking the slash too. Its like dropping Lysander and Pedro from my codex and then charging me extra $20 for a "Dorns Sons" supplement a month later.

I just feel that if these things have always been a staple of the codex, they are kicking the arse out of demanding more purchases from people.

 korghan wrote:

GW is a retail company. It's no different than a food chain or an electronics store. The only way to stay open is to sell things. Expecting them to put out a codex that strengthens everything people already own is ludicrous. It would be like a game developer putting out free DLC's because they "care about their client base". What sense would that make? None.

And by contrast, expecting people to buy into a system with no give and take is equally nonsensical.

At some point a company has to meet you in the middle or there's no business transaction.

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I don't think you know what 'marketing' means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to be fair, neither do GW, but hey ho.

Hold on, ill bring out my Advertising Textbook: Marketing- is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerins that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

What GW is doing is in itself bad marketing. They want to deliver on a product, what product is it? An update to a book people already own. What GW has to do is twofold, get people who do not own an Astra Militarum army to buy one, and to get those who already own one to buy the new book and new models it comes with.

This idea might work for people who do not have an army already, but for those who do, you effectively took out a whole bunch of units people DID care about. This is not effective marketing. If you were to take something out, you would have to put something back in of equal value so that the customer at least on a surface level FEELS like he is getting a good deal.
GW has failed from a marketing standpoint.

So by your perspective they should hope to stay open by codex sales?

One of Marketings biggest purposes is to keep customers. The best thing a brand can have is Brand Loyalty. If a person is going to go out and drop down his hard earned cash on a product, the company wants to know for sure that person is spending it on his brand.

GW is playing with the welfare of it's loyal customers. That is stupid marketing. They are uncommunicative and keep their design decisions close to their chest. It is not only codex sales, it is having a person buy a GW product, and have them keep buying GW products.

I have been loyal for a few years now, but they have strained my and many other peoples relationship with their actions.

I learned this gak in Advertising class at a community college, what the feth is GW actively thinking?

I agree with you. GW does need to maintain loyalty. But you can't shove profit margins of a public company by the wayside to maintain that loyalty. I also agree that it's downright crappy to have to rebuild an awesome army because of a codex update. I'm not a fan of it either. The difference is that I understand why they are doing this. The last few quarterly reviews have not been good. I love this damn game and I have since 4th. I plan on playing well past 9th. The only way for that to continue is that GW turns a profit. If someone knows of a forum where people complain about having to buy a PS4 or XboxOne to play new games point me to it. It's the same beast. We have to pay to play.

I understand what you are getting at, completely. But this is coming from a Marketing perspective. When it comes down to it, an individual sale is worthless. It is only with repeat business from consistent customers that companies as big as GW actually make money.

There is the concept of IMC, Integrated Marketing Communications. Bacially, it is designed to develop relationship with it's customers. To use the store Target as an example, everything in the store is dedicated to the concept and slogan of "Expect more, Pay less." You get really interesting items you might not see at a place like Walmart for considerably low prices.

What does GW try to do with it's IMC? I have been trying to decipher this and i can't come up with a good picture. Who does GW market to? This hobby is very inclusive. There is only a select group of people who can and would want to play it. Their prices are high enough to only attract more wealthy people, meanwhile many of the people who should be playing a game like this are supposed to be teens to young adults. That is what the rule of cool universe really applys to, right?

It's interesting you point out Playstation and Xbox, think of how the console wars basically did free advertising for Sony and Microsoft. People screaming at eachother why one is better than the other only helped in getting more specialized positioning in what is essentially the same market. There is no effective difference between consoles when it all comes down to it, only that one has a select group of customers who identify as "Xbox" or "Playstation."

Schadenfreude: I think blobs still have a place even with dirt cheap Conscripts.

A.) They can take a single priest for the re-rolls. They don't need multiple prayers as badly to be good at fighting, but just getting Hatred really ups their killing power.

B.) Sergeants can protect the Priests from challenges.

C.) Shooting is a lot better. I know you said this, but it matters, and so it's a reason to take blobs. Especially since you're much more likely to bring all your shooting to bear more often than all your close-combat power.

D.) Sergeants can take Meltabombs (presumably)

Also, the blob's killing power is more concentrated, but also vulnerable, so it's a wash.

I think the close-combat blob isn't what you really want, though. You make a shooty blob that beats down the survivors in close combat.

Trade in your 5 power weapons (75 points) and some change for 5 Meltabombs and a divination Inquisitor. You put out a wall of light, followed up by a horrific stand and shoot. You don't need to be better at combat against whatever is left after the lasgun fusillade. Meltabombs mean you can't get bogged down in close combat by MCs and walkers. Massed S3 re-rolled to hit means anything you can hurt will be quickly reduced. If you have the points, a priest for getting Shred is just icing on the cake.

That being said, rad grenade inquisitor + Smashing Eviscerator armed Priest = Instakilling T6 models. Stupid but awesome.

To come with the DLC game companies used to put out, they sometime charged you for them, called an 'expansion', which was better, as long/longer and with new extras than the original game.

so that would be like GW releasing the Codex, then coming out with another book witha crapload of options like actual doctrines (not just orders being re branded for the Storm Troopers), new vehicles, new troops, new characters, all of course, for a fraction of the price the codex costed you.

Then you'd wake up and had to go to work realizing that it was just some dream.

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I don't think you know what 'marketing' means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to be fair, neither do GW, but hey ho.

Hold on, ill bring out my Advertising Textbook: Marketing- is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerins that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

What GW is doing is in itself bad marketing. They want to deliver on a product, what product is it? An update to a book people already own. What GW has to do is twofold, get people who do not own an Astra Militarum army to buy one, and to get those who already own one to buy the new book and new models it comes with.

This idea might work for people who do not have an army already, but for those who do, you effectively took out a whole bunch of units people DID care about. This is not effective marketing. If you were to take something out, you would have to put something back in of equal value so that the customer at least on a surface level FEELS like he is getting a good deal.
GW has failed from a marketing standpoint.

So by your perspective they should hope to stay open by codex sales?

One of Marketings biggest purposes is to keep customers. The best thing a brand can have is Brand Loyalty. If a person is going to go out and drop down his hard earned cash on a product, the company wants to know for sure that person is spending it on his brand.

GW is playing with the welfare of it's loyal customers. That is stupid marketing. They are uncommunicative and keep their design decisions close to their chest. It is not only codex sales, it is having a person buy a GW product, and have them keep buying GW products.

I have been loyal for a few years now, but they have strained my and many other peoples relationship with their actions.

I learned this gak in Advertising class at a community college, what the feth is GW actively thinking?

I agree with you. GW does need to maintain loyalty. But you can't shove profit margins of a public company by the wayside to maintain that loyalty. I also agree that it's downright crappy to have to rebuild an awesome army because of a codex update. I'm not a fan of it either. The difference is that I understand why they are doing this. The last few quarterly reviews have not been good. I love this damn game and I have since 4th. I plan on playing well past 9th. The only way for that to continue is that GW turns a profit. If someone knows of a forum where people complain about having to buy a PS4 or XboxOne to play new games point me to it. It's the same beast. We have to pay to play.

I understand what you are getting at, completely. But this is coming from a Marketing perspective. When it comes down to it, an individual sale is worthless. It is only with repeat business from consistent customers that companies as big as GW actually make money.

There is the concept of IMC, Integrated Marketing Communications. Bacially, it is designed to develop relationship with it's customers. To use the store Target as an example, everything in the store is dedicated to the concept and slogan of "Expect more, Pay less." You get really interesting items you might not see at a place like Walmart for considerably low prices.

What does GW try to do with it's IMC? I have been trying to decipher this and i can't come up with a good picture. Who does GW market to? This hobby is very inclusive. There is only a select group of people who can and would want to play it. Their prices are high enough to only attract more wealthy people, meanwhile many of the people who should be playing a game like this are supposed to be teens to young adults. That is what the rule of cool universe really applys to, right?

It's interesting you point out Playstation and Xbox, think of how the console wars basically did free advertising for Sony and Microsoft. People screaming at eachother why one is better than the other only helped in getting more specialized positioning in what is essentially the same market. There is no effective difference between consoles when it all comes down to it, only that one has a select group of customers who identify as "Xbox" or "Playstation."

You're right there. But I actually wish this model was in place when I first started. Back in late 4th/early 5th I combed the internet for tips on how to start and it was usually only net lists. Now we have a ridiculous amount of codecies/dataslates/minidexes. The new comer can tailor his army just about any way he/she wants to. To those that have been here for a while it seems offensive. But I think it is actually made this way to attract new gamers. I've seen a dozen new comers at my local store in the past month that just wanted to pick the "old guys" brains. I think we are in the middle of a grand transition. Nobody likes change but I think that a year from now we can look back and laugh. Hell I've dumped more money into this hobby than I have my dang car and I have no regrets. As far as GW marketing.. yea.. its atrocious. no arguments there! But I really feel like a lot of the internet sentiment leans way too towards the sky is falling. Again, the new models look awesome (aside from the taurox). The new orders for MT also look great. I think if we just hold on it'll all be ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
To come with the DLC game companies used to put out, they sometime charged you for them, called an 'expansion', which was better, as long/longer and with new extras than the original game.

so that would be like GW releasing the Codex, then coming out with another book witha crapload of options like actual doctrines (not just orders being re branded for the Storm Troopers), new vehicles, new troops, new characters, all of course, for a fraction of the price the codex costed you.

Then you'd wake up and had to go to work realizing that it was just some dream.

ok you've got me there!

 korghan wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
You are right, things change and we have to adapt but for some this feels more like:

Me: You need new brakes.
Customer: But I just bought tires a month ago! Can't you do them for free?!
Me: No... that's not how companies stay open. BTW I just went ahead and slashed the back tires.

(and I agree with that feeling even if personally I'm not that concerned for my IG army)
M.

GW is a retail company. It's no different than a food chain or an electronics store. The only way to stay open is to sell things. Expecting them to put out a codex that strengthens everything people already own is ludicrous. It would be like a game developer putting out free DLC's because they "care about their client base". What sense would that make? None. The 6th edition codices all (for the most part) follow this model. I have been on the fence about starting an IG army. With the rumors for this codex I'm sold. The things that did get nerfed honestly needed them. Anyone that says the Vendetta only needed a moderate price increase is naive at best. It was the most under priced unit in the game (barring grey hunters). All of the good things are still there. Guard are supposed to be about massed everyday joes get thrown through the meat grinder. That aspect has only gotten better. How about massed tank formations? Yep. With the introduction of tank HQ's that got better too. Lets look at the Chimera for a moment. Yea.. it has av10 side armor.. but 55 points for it was pretty darn cheap. I'm honestly thrilled about the new orders. They are something that other armies just don't get. Sure, we all would've loved regimental doctrines too but we cant have it all. I think this codex will be that diamond in the rough. As far as special characters go, I am sad to see Marbo go. I've used an allied detachment just to get him. But he was far from competitive. The important ones are still there. So why don't we all just relax and wait for the thing to actually drop before we decry GW for actually trying to turn a profit to stay in business?

There are other retail models out there that do not feel the need to reinvent the wheel with each cycle in order to get you to buy new things. I play warmachine/hordes, and I am an active participant on their forums. Rarely do you see people threatening to "rage quit" when a new release cycle starts. They are happy to adapt and move on. GW seems to be actively courting people to be rage quitting by creating unbalanced retail plans. I myself plan on doing it within the week with the primary hope of being able to purchase more PP models. I'll even post my barter town link here for those calling my "bluff". Hopefully you'll buy my Chimera's.

GWs plan with the IG is flawed, Cutting a pile of models supported by a company that they own is insane. I'd be pissed if I had ever bought those medusa's that I had meant to. Frankly I'm pissed that I would have to buy several more boxes of figures to keep my army remotely competitive, since vets can only take two specials. PP releases add to an army and it's flexibility, and does not subtract and require new investments in order to even play the game. You can argue "hey just play fifth", but I play with a really cool group., and they are even doing full group escalation leagues that require current rules. Should I have to request from the entire group yo make an exception just got me? Why does GW need to change things? Why don't they just add on to current rules to create new excitement? I'd be happy to buy cool new *#}*!, but you have to release entire new rule books, and reinvent every fricken unit unit!

The only reason to change primary rules is to adjust balance issues, and we all know that they sure as hell are not balancing things. Hell i don't even play or care about a real tournament scene to even encourage balance! I even say this as someone who enjoys painting cool ass miniatures over playing the game. If you think this is BS go to a major CON like gencon, Adepticon, or templecon and compare the type of people playing each of the major games. It might make you rethink your allegiances to faceless corporations.

Frankly with the incivility of people over the last 150+ pages of this thread (although I skipped the last thirty pages) I wonder where the hell the MODs are? Why isn't it ok to criticize GW. Are all these people employees of the company? Is this their new marketing plan to win over Vet players? Shame them into buying crappy models? WTF?

If you wish to flame me you should probably PM me, since I don't plan on scrolling through ten pages of posts a second time to read the vindictive reply's to my opinion. Please keep giving GW your money, because you will be even more unhappy when the company does a crash and burn and you are left with nothing save the knowledge that your hard earned cash is in investor's pockets. I suppose that you can keep playing the current edition until old age when you enter hospice.

 Tomb King wrote:
Italian translations so bare with me. These are from what appears to be the official codex that was posted in Italian a few pages ago.

Warlord traits:

1. Grand strategy (primary detachment only) I.E. D3 units get this special rule.


2. old grudges- during deployment, before you deploy the infiltrators and scouts, choose a codex warhammer 40k. The General and his unit have a special rule favored enemy against all enemy units chosen from the codex.


3. iron discipline- units from Codex: AM within 12 "of the general dont take morale when they suffer losses of 25% or more.


4. unrelenting determination- General and its units have the Unbreakable special rule.


5. booming voice- The General rule Voice of the special command. If you already possess it, then you can issue orders to units of the codex: AM that are within 18 "of him.


6. Master of the command- The General rule Voice of the special command. If it already has, then he can give an additional order each round.


Not sure if anyone did it already and it wasnt easy... lol a few typo's i am sure but the general knowledge is there... hope you enjoy.

Now lets get down to the nitty gritty, what special characters get what warlord traits? I would like to think these awesome awesome traits combined with characters would be impressive indeed.

1. Creeeeeedd! Obviously, he already had this ability before
2. I will assume Yarrick, since he really really hates Orks.
3. Not sure about this one, I would almost assume it would belong to something like DKOK or a Mordian (possibly a new character, or possibly pask, who knows?!)
4. Straken, I keep hearing hes gone, but this one makes me think harker all the way. (if its fearless)
5. while this one fluff wise sounds like something Kell could do, 5 and 6 sound be the extra bits meant for generic commanders only.

edited for Straken instead of Harker, my bad

 korghan wrote:


GW is a retail company. It's no different than a food chain or an electronics store. The only way to stay open is to sell things. Expecting them to put out a codex that strengthens everything people already own is ludicrous. It would be like a game developer putting out free DLC's because they "care about their client base". What sense would that make? None. The 6th edition codices all (for the most part) follow this model. I have been on the fence about starting an IG army. With the rumors for this codex I'm sold.

GW is far from the same as a random food chain or electronics store or most retail stores. They CONTROL the production of, the distribution of and the design of 100% of their products. Additionally, they have a player base that requires THEIR products and for the most part have to go through them to those products (Yeah you got 3rd party companies, but honestly they're a super small piece of the pie). Furthermore, GW has many independent stores which sell their product without being a franchise or owned by GW (Local stores), which allows them to be said distributor of the product.

Very few companies operate in such a manner (IE Apple) and it's pretty absurd how bad GW is at so many elements despite having complete operational control over all aspects of the hobby.

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 korghan wrote:

 IrishWristwatch wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
I don't think you know what 'marketing' means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to be fair, neither do GW, but hey ho.

Hold on, ill bring out my Advertising Textbook: Marketing- is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerins that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

What GW is doing is in itself bad marketing. They want to deliver on a product, what product is it? An update to a book people already own. What GW has to do is twofold, get people who do not own an Astra Militarum army to buy one, and to get those who already own one to buy the new book and new models it comes with.

This idea might work for people who do not have an army already, but for those who do, you effectively took out a whole bunch of units people DID care about. This is not effective marketing. If you were to take something out, you would have to put something back in of equal value so that the customer at least on a surface level FEELS like he is getting a good deal.
GW has failed from a marketing standpoint.

So by your perspective they should hope to stay open by codex sales?

One of Marketings biggest purposes is to keep customers. The best thing a brand can have is Brand Loyalty. If a person is going to go out and drop down his hard earned cash on a product, the company wants to know for sure that person is spending it on his brand.

GW is playing with the welfare of it's loyal customers. That is stupid marketing. They are uncommunicative and keep their design decisions close to their chest. It is not only codex sales, it is having a person buy a GW product, and have them keep buying GW products.

I have been loyal for a few years now, but they have strained my and many other peoples relationship with their actions.

I learned this gak in Advertising class at a community college, what the feth is GW actively thinking?

I agree with you. GW does need to maintain loyalty. But you can't shove profit margins of a public company by the wayside to maintain that loyalty. I also agree that it's downright crappy to have to rebuild an awesome army because of a codex update. I'm not a fan of it either. The difference is that I understand why they are doing this. The last few quarterly reviews have not been good. I love this damn game and I have since 4th. I plan on playing well past 9th. The only way for that to continue is that GW turns a profit. If someone knows of a forum where people complain about having to buy a PS4 or XboxOne to play new games point me to it. It's the same beast. We have to pay to play.

I understand what you are getting at, completely. But this is coming from a Marketing perspective. When it comes down to it, an individual sale is worthless. It is only with repeat business from consistent customers that companies as big as GW actually make money.

There is the concept of IMC, Integrated Marketing Communications. Bacially, it is designed to develop relationship with it's customers. To use the store Target as an example, everything in the store is dedicated to the concept and slogan of "Expect more, Pay less." You get really interesting items you might not see at a place like Walmart for considerably low prices.

What does GW try to do with it's IMC? I have been trying to decipher this and i can't come up with a good picture. Who does GW market to? This hobby is very inclusive. There is only a select group of people who can and would want to play it. Their prices are high enough to only attract more wealthy people, meanwhile many of the people who should be playing a game like this are supposed to be teens to young adults. That is what the rule of cool universe really applys to, right?

It's interesting you point out Playstation and Xbox, think of how the console wars basically did free advertising for Sony and Microsoft. People screaming at eachother why one is better than the other only helped in getting more specialized positioning in what is essentially the same market. There is no effective difference between consoles when it all comes down to it, only that one has a select group of customers who identify as "Xbox" or "Playstation."

You're right there. But I actually wish this model was in place when I first started. Back in late 4th/early 5th I combed the internet for tips on how to start and it was usually only net lists. Now we have a ridiculous amount of codecies/dataslates/minidexes. The new comer can tailor his army just about any way he/she wants to. To those that have been here for a while it seems offensive. But I think it is actually made this way to attract new gamers. I've seen a dozen new comers at my local store in the past month that just wanted to pick the "old guys" brains. I think we are in the middle of a grand transition. Nobody likes change but I think that a year from now we can look back and laugh. Hell I've dumped more money into this hobby than I have my dang car and I have no regrets. As far as GW marketing.. yea.. its atrocious. no arguments there! But I really feel like a lot of the internet sentiment leans way too towards the sky is falling. Again, the new models look awesome (aside from the taurox). The new orders for MT also look great. I think if we just hold on it'll all be ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
To come with the DLC game companies used to put out, they sometime charged you for them, called an 'expansion', which was better, as long/longer and with new extras than the original game.

so that would be like GW releasing the Codex, then coming out with another book witha crapload of options like actual doctrines (not just orders being re branded for the Storm Troopers), new vehicles, new troops, new characters, all of course, for a fraction of the price the codex costed you.

Then you'd wake up and had to go to work realizing that it was just some dream.

ok you've got me there!

I guess that is a way to think about it. I'm so glad to have a civilized discussion about this really. Recently i have been going to a store that has opened much more locally. It is situated right next to a local high school, so suddenly i am seeing much more young people playing the game.

There was a game going on with SOB vs. Nids. I looked over on their table and saw that the guy was using Dinosaur toys on cardboard bases to represent things like Carnifexes. Basically he did not want to spend mutliple 50 bucks to get something that should be core to an army.

I think the best thing GW could do is adjust the prices of it's products. The people who should be buying into the hobby are having a hard time especially if they are coming into it fresh. I only started a few years ago when i was in high school. All the money for it came out of my own pocket. It still makes me cringe.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
On average, just to give a few examples of why, a unit of 10 Rough Riders beats the following on a charge:

Too bad you'll never successfully charge with a unit of 10 rough riders. We've known for years that rough riders slaughter anything they charge as long as it isn't wearing terminator armor, the problem is delivering them to a target without getting the whole squad of T3/no-save guardsmen killed. They were a decent counter-charge unit in 5th when you could assault out of reserve, but now you have to spend at least one turn on the table getting shot to death before you can charge. People rarely use them now for very good reasons, and the new rules don't make them better in any relevant way.

This does not factor the extra attack they have with the new Dex either

What extra attack? They have one attack base in the new codex, and lances are now specialist weapons. In fact, because of the specialist weapon thing they lose an attack compared to what they have now.

To assume that you can make 100% of of your customer base happy is kind of silly. I'm not a GW fan boy but it seems that way too many people are happy with complaining. Things aren't so bad!

 IrishWristwatch wrote:


I think the best thing GW could do is adjust the prices of it's products. The people who should be buying into the hobby are having a hard time especially if they are coming into it fresh. I only started a few years ago when i was in high school. All the money for it came out of my own pocket. It still makes me cringe.

A nice sentiment..but we both know that GW's logic means that lowering prices equals less profit rather than selling more and making a profit.

This is IG thread. Not a study in economics. Start your own thread instead of hijacking this one please.