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Hey everyone,
So I have been playing Skaven for a while and have a pretty solid grip on how I like the play Skaven but one unit I haven't used much is my Rat Ogres.
I have used them a few times with little success I tried them in 2 ogres 1 pack master formation and ran 2 units of these they died really quickly but used them as charge re directors really.

I was thinking of something today and was wondering what the Skaven players on here thought about it.
I was thinking of running a unit of 40 Plague Monks and a unit of 4-6 Rat ogres along the side of them. The general tactic would be to move the Plague Monks up and have the Rat Ogres over 6 inches away on the side and move them up along with the Plague monks. Once the Plague monks charge a unit I would do a flank charge with the Rat Ogres.

I think this would work pretty damn good because both the Rat Ogres and Plague Monks are frenzied and will get a whole bunch of attacks. The flank charge means the Ogres will hopefully last longer in combat.

What do you guys think? Do you think that would work pretty well in a 2000 point game?

Sadly Rat Ogres are overpriced and ... well they're sh*t really
They don't hit that hard (WS3), they're hard to control (frenzy), they have no protection at all and they're expensive

The only decent way to use them that I found is 1 ROgre, ! Master-Bred and 1 Packmaster in a "mini conga-line", using challenge shenaningans to survive and/or hunt wizards

Any big unit is way overpriced and will suffer large losses for little gains
A pity, I really like em and have a lot painted

WS3 is irrelevant. But at this point in 8th they are overcosted. They have to be compared to trolls and ogres and even kroxigor and ushabti and I think they are lacking.

Ya I agree they are overcosted for sure! If they had some sort of save like a scaly skin type deal or regen save that would make them a lot better.
I just want to try and make them work even though I think if I can keep them out of line of sight of any cannons or archers they should do alright. Even though they cost a lot points wise.

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Hey everyone,
So I have been playing Skaven for a while and have a pretty solid grip on how I like the play Skaven but one unit I haven't used much is my Rat Ogres.
I have used them a few times with little success I tried them in 2 ogres 1 pack master formation and ran 2 units of these they died really quickly but used them as charge re directors really.

I was thinking of something today and was wondering what the Skaven players on here thought about it.
I was thinking of running a unit of 40 Plague Monks and a unit of 4-6 Rat ogres along the side of them. The general tactic would be to move the Plague Monks up and have the Rat Ogres over 6 inches away on the side and move them up along with the Plague monks. Once the Plague monks charge a unit I would do a flank charge with the Rat Ogres.

I think this would work pretty damn good because both the Rat Ogres and Plague Monks are frenzied and will get a whole bunch of attacks. The flank charge means the Ogres will hopefully last longer in combat.

What do you guys think? Do you think that would work pretty well in a 2000 point game?

One double edged sword for skaven is frenzied units. Many of our best units have it. Rat ogres are also good but because they are often run in few ranks their rank bonus tends to be low and therefore their leadership is also a bit low. Perhaps master moulders would fix this or taking a warlord on bonebreaker with the unit (though he wouldn't be allowed a 'look out sir'). The problem with frenzy is that if you can charge you have to take a test if you want to restrain charging. The biggest problem is that if the enemy runs from combat against a frenzied unit then the frenzied unit must pursue and normally you have to overrun in most combat results. If you're facing any sort of good player they will set their units up to flank charge you should you overrun too far and into bad spots.

-------------

I won't say rat ogres are bad. In fact they can throw out a decent punch and if you add skweel gnawtooth they might be even more devastating. However they could be much better and are probably over-priced. Some don't like rat ogres but honestly if you don't have much punch in other areas they can throw down a decent punch and keep going. They can even knock the crap out of elves and keep munching through them if they have to.

I feel like you shouldn't have more than 6-8 rat ogres and never more than 3 wide. 6 wide like most horde formations is just stupid large and makes your unit hard to maneuver.

Big block of 12-15 with skweel.

The chance of poisoned attacks/extra attack/or a 4+\5+ regen makes them appealing. And 36-45 wounds is nice too.

Well I have some rat ogres cause they are nice models, but I never use them in battle, If clan Moulder runs a few more experiments on them I will reconsider. Until then, they decorate my room just perfectly. Some times I use giant rats to confuse my enemy and gain a tactical advantage.

Pretty much the only use I have for Rat Ogres at this point is as a Bonebreaker mount for a Warlord.

Rat Ogres do have a huge edge over some other MI.
You get a few 5+ saves against shooting (pack masters), but more importantly, you're init 4.
A unit of 6, with 4 pack masters and master bred rat is under 279 points.
That's not bad for 22 S5 attacks.

That's about 8 Trolls who are waaay better.

I used to say Rat Ogres weren't bad, but they buffed pretty much all the major MI/MC (especially MC!) in the new books. I have a feeling Rat Ogres, will get something like armor or minor regen, when new Skaven come out.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
That's about 8 Trolls who are waaay better.

I used to say Rat Ogres weren't bad, but they buffed pretty much all the major MI/MC (especially MC!) in the new books. I have a feeling Rat Ogres, will get something like armor or minor regen, when new Skaven come out.

I hope that happens if they get a regen I will definitely use them! To bad they don't put out Fantasy books as fast as 40k at the moment.

I'd love to see something like: buy a Master Moulder, and the following upgrades can be yours for the low-low fee of...

I would point out that Rat Ogres, as they are, currently kill their point's worth of Ogres.
I don't think they're terrible. But a little point-drop and M7 would make them exactly what I want.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
That's about 8 Trolls who are waaay better.

I used to say Rat Ogres weren't bad, but they buffed pretty much all the major MI/MC (especially MC!) in the new books. I have a feeling Rat Ogres, will get something like armor or minor regen, when new Skaven come out.

Trolls are good, but init 1 is a problem. Likewise, regen is good, but flaming is common.
Stupidity and LD4 isn't all that great either, though neither is LD5 with frenzy. Both need a babysitter, though once you deal with the Ld issue, frenzy is better than stupid.

In an army with a ton of powerful shooting and magic, Rat Ogres make for a very useful hammer.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
That's about 8 Trolls who are waaay better.

I used to say Rat Ogres weren't bad, but they buffed pretty much all the major MI/MC (especially MC!) in the new books. I have a feeling Rat Ogres, will get something like armor or minor regen, when new Skaven come out.

Trolls are good, but init 1 is a problem. Likewise, regen is good, but flaming is common.
Stupidity and LD4 isn't all that great either, though neither is LD5 with frenzy. Both need a babysitter, though once you deal with the Ld issue, frenzy is better than stupid.

In an army with a ton of powerful shooting and magic, Rat Ogres make for a very useful hammer.

-Matt

Not always (frenzy being better than stupid). If you do anything but beat an unstable unit in combat I'm pretty sure frenzied units have to overrun if the enemy is destroyed or pursue fleeing enemies. This not only has the problem of being thrown out of a leadership bubble without a warlord on rat ogre in the unit but it means your unit is in good flanking position. One good flank and that rat ogre unit is as good as destroyed. Oh and if all the packmasters die (of which there aren't very many) then the unit also has stupidity on leadership 5. So yeah rat ogres still have some steep negatives. They can hit hard but they very much need baby-sitting and a whole lot of it.

You make a good last point though. Skaven don't have much in the way of hammers except for large targets. We have good shooting with warpfire throwers, doomwheels, gutter runners and warp lightning cannons. However small unit of medium ranged units 18"-24" or even higher can pick out weapons teams and snipe them to death. Not only that but the abomination and other large targets are getting easier and easier to harm. The toughness 5 on an abomination is becoming more and more apparent with every new army book. I even fear that one or two rounds of iron drakes shooting at one would completely destroy it without issue esp. with that troll-hammer torpedo or whatever it was called. Even normal handguns are a bit scary for my abomination to face. Throw one batch of flaming shots in before a volley of handguns and bam it's dead in one phase.

If you want higher strength attacks from skaven, get storm vermin.
Armoured, more total attacks, last longer, just better in every way.

Its sad to say it, but rat ogres have no use anymore.
Far too heavy on points for what they can do.

On a side note, if your running a unit of plague monks and need a hammer unit for it, take censer bearers instead.
They chew through pretty much anything and quickly.

 Jackal wrote:
If you want higher strength attacks from skaven, get storm vermin.
Armoured, more total attacks, last longer, just better in every way.

Its sad to say it, but rat ogres have no use anymore.
Far too heavy on points for what they can do.

On a side note, if your running a unit of plague monks and need a hammer unit for it, take censer bearers instead.
They chew through pretty much anything and quickly.

Censers work but only if you charge a unit with them. They're still frenzied so that's still a problem. The biggest problem with censers is they are a one time attack unit. If they don't win their first fight they suck in the 2nd combat. Rat ogres always have higher strength. Also censer bearers are initiative 3 while rat ogres are initiative 4. It might not sound like much but it helps somewhat esp. if you want to throw out a ton of attacks without being hit back. Rat ogres also can have skweel upgrade them to give them more attacks, regeneration or poisoned attacks. Rat ogres also cause fear and do stomp attacks.

I suppose the joke is my rat ogres tend to only live a round or two of combat anyway but they tend to live the approach to combat much better than the lower numbered censers. Also rat ogres can hit a unit by themselves and do enough damage whereas with censers it's probably best to charge them in with a rank and file unit to negate enemy ranks to prevent steadfast (go deep instead of wide with clanrats or stormvermin).

flaming - The OP mentioned using them as a counter attack unit to 40 plague monks, which was why i suggested the censers.
They can be baby sat pretty easily.
You can also keep them close to the flank of the monks to prevent them from being able to charge when you dont want them to.

Also, what sort of unit fights against a unit of monks and censers that have charged them and wins?
I usually find it to be overkill fairly often.



The bonus to initiative is great, i admit that as it helps alot.
I do play against a ton of elves though, which means im going 2nd anyway.

I just find that for the points, they really are over costed by alot compared to what they can do.
Skweel can boost them, but its too random to rely on.

All in all though, i rather run a block of stormvermin instead.
If i want rat ogres, its a bonebreaker mount for a warlord.

 Jackal wrote:
flaming - The OP mentioned using them as a counter attack unit to 40 plague monks, which was why i suggested the censers.
They can be baby sat pretty easily.
You can also keep them close to the flank of the monks to prevent them from being able to charge when you dont want them to.

Also, what sort of unit fights against a unit of monks and censers that have charged them and wins?
I usually find it to be overkill fairly often.



The bonus to initiative is great, i admit that as it helps alot.
I do play against a ton of elves though, which means im going 2nd anyway.

I just find that for the points, they really are over costed by alot compared to what they can do.
Skweel can boost them, but its too random to rely on.

All in all though, i rather run a block of stormvermin instead.
If i want rat ogres, its a bonebreaker mount for a warlord.

I agree with you about the stormvermin I use them quite often in a unit of 40 and still use a unit of 40 Plague Monks.
Censor Bearers are an interesting idea I have never used them (don't have the models they are pretty pricey) but they do seem pretty useful although I'm unsure about how long they would survive for.

I agree that Rat Ogres are overcosted I think everyone agrees on that but I will be trying out a unit of them in a casual game just to see how it goes. If they suck they suck but they might surprise me who knows haha

I don't think storm vermin fill the same role.
S4 save -1, isn't comparable to S5 save -2. You'd need to throw the AP banner on the storm vermin unit, and at that point you're comparing 8 rat ogres to 40 storm vermin.

Both are good, and with one being core, taking both for a harder hitting skaven army is viable.

Plague Censor bearers are in a whole other class. A single chariot will cause them huge issues. IMO, Censor Bearers should be ~12 points, not 16, or force the Toughness tests on supporting models as well.

I want to pick up a bunch more Rat Ogres (my friends never use theirs and would part w/them cheap) and make a Ratty Ogrestar. 21 Rat Ogres, 6 or so packmasters and Skweel. Yes it's a ton of points, but a HPA and double Doomwheel says people will have to decide what target they want to shoot at most.

SSquirrel wrote:
I want to pick up a bunch more Rat Ogres (my friends never use theirs and would part w/them cheap) and make a Ratty Ogrestar. 21 Rat Ogres, 6 or so packmasters and Skweel. Yes it's a ton of points, but a HPA and double Doomwheel says people will have to decide what target they want to shoot at most.

Holy
That is nearing 1000 points for a unit that would be so intense to play haha I think that would be a pretty damn intimidating unit for the oponent to be facing and really throw them off what they would be expecting to face when playing Skaven.
I don't think I could load up 1000 points in a single unit though if that unit went down you be pretty much be at half strength for your army I think that Rat Ogre unit would be far more intimidating than an HPA or 2 doomwheels.

I would never recommend that many points in a unit. While they can pass a lot of tests, there's some that don't require any. A Final Transmutation is like 240pts gone.

I also think it would simply be boring.

Yah. It's a huge point-sink.

Units of 2 with 2 Packmasters are 96pts . It's not super cheap, but it's also not a very big investment, and it does throw out 8 S5 attacks and 2 stomps.
That is the only way I've had any use with them. The problem is, their stats aren't quite high enough to be reliable Killer Chaff, and their Frenzy makes them difficult to use as surgical counter-attack units.

Now, if they were 30-35pts and M7, I'd be using them more. Still not all the time. But more.

With pretty much 0 options that most other MI have, and Ld and unit type issues to boot, Rat Ogres really shouldn't be above 30 points.