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Furyou Miko wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Funny enough if the IoM attacked earth with a SM chapter I am pretty sure we would destroy ourselves fighting over the tech left behind after we kill them.

What, the magical ability to make heavily armoured fighting vehicles that float? :p

TheCustomLime wrote:No, we will fight the bloodiest war for the greatest technology the warriors of the adeptus astartes possess: Plot Armor.

Clearly the greatest technology the IoM has to offer is their prayer based computation. I am sure microsoft and apple will do anything to learn the secrets of convincing you to abase yourself before their electronics.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
An Imperial Guard battle group. They maybe flashlights to space marines but to us Lasguns are far more powerful than any infantry standard issue small arm we have. A Leman Russ battle tank would make mincemeat out of any earth tank. Baneblades could roll over entire tank armies without stopping. Basilisks would destroy any fortifications we have. Vendettas would blow out helicopters out of the sky with so much ease. Flak armor would be all but invulnerable to our assault rifle rounds.

After we just start dropping dust bombs and salting rain clouds over the battlezone, the lasgun becomes completely useless (never mind the let's all line up and fight IG tactic means one missile that the IG has 0 defense against ends them without them ever firing a single round). The Leman Russ is a mediocre tank. It might have a reasonable gun, but it's slow, not particularly mobile, poor armor, and has a very tall and visible silhouette, etc. A modern tank runs rings around it without getting into anything flashy such as the M1A1's fire with pinpoint accuracy while doing ~30kph up and down hills (i.e. over unstable terrain) from 2 miles away.

As a general note, the M1A1 vs Leman Russ:

Leman Russ Hull Armor: 180mm
M1A1: 350/700 (350 vs certain rounds, 700 vs others)

Leman Russ shell size: 120mm
M1A1: 120mm

Leman Russ height: ~16ft
M1A1: 8ft

Leman Russ speed: 35kph
M1A1 speed: 67kph

Go to ~38minutes in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrN66eGAfuQ

So it's much weaker armor, much slower, and a much larger target. Meaning it pretty much looses every time.

It's all hyperbole behind a lot of the Imperial stuff that comes standard issue. Modern weapons trump a lot of 40k equipment, including the modern battle rifle in all areas save the fact a lasgun can recharge. 40k is the 'bigger is better' mentality that generally fails in reality.

The problem is that we dont know how strong the futuristic magic metal is. For all we know, its either a lower grade steel (since it is called ferrosteel) or much stronger than anything we can make. The size and bore of a cannon doesnt mean much either since size isnt everything with guns. It could be really powerful and accurate.

It is slower though. Maybe because what leman russes are made out of is heavy?

@ansacs

Wait, Apple already hasnt made people worship its tech?

I think the Earth would be a hard nut to crack for the IoM. Aside from Space-craft, our weapons technology outclasses theirs severely. Thunderhawks would be annihilated by our jet fighters and the Leman Russ doesn't stand a chance against modern battle tanks. Even Titans could be brought down pretty easily from miles and miles away by cruise missiles. I don't know the specifics of Space Marine armor but I'm assuming standard ballistic rounds of a large enough caliber will penetrate considering Orks can kill them and they use what appear to be normal bullets.

Whatever technology we scavenged from them would quickly be reverse-engineered, improved upon, and incorporated into our own military. Give us 5-10 years and we'd probably have all of our soldiers equipped with improved Las weapons and plasteel body armor. The main advantage they would have over us is shear numbers if they decided to go all out.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
An Imperial Guard battle group. They maybe flashlights to space marines but to us Lasguns are far more powerful than any infantry standard issue small arm we have. A Leman Russ battle tank would make mincemeat out of any earth tank. Baneblades could roll over entire tank armies without stopping. Basilisks would destroy any fortifications we have. Vendettas would blow out helicopters out of the sky with so much ease. Flak armor would be all but invulnerable to our assault rifle rounds.

How powerful is a 41st Millenium black powder musket?

Can a 41st Millenium black power musket destroy a modern Main Battle Tank?

I only ask because in 1st & 2nd edition when Muskets were in the general wargear list they had the same Strength as Lasguns and Autoguns. More recently Inquisitor gave them a damage of 3d3 vs 2d6 for Lasguns and 2d6+2 for Autoguns.

40k is and always has been a post-Apocalyptic setting, the old maxim "if World War 3 is fought with nukes, World War 4 will be fought with bows and arrows" really does apply. Muskets and bows and clubs were listed in 1st & 2nd edition and Inquisitor (and probably Dark Heresy et al) because average Imperial tech is NOT all that advanced, if muskets and bows can be a threat to Imperial troops modern weapons sure as hell can.

Well, you have some issues here with the different game systems.

A blackpowder musket, or a bow and arrow, are definitely present in DH, because you might visit a Feral World, but these weapons are hardly a threat to anyone in any kind of modern armor, even flak. These weapons have, for their game systems, the "Primitive" quality, which indicates that any armor that lacks the same quality receives double its Armor Points against it. Obviously, if you are not wearing a helmet and take a musket or an arrow to the dome, you're fethed, but otherwise the average Guardsman has little to fear from a bow-wielding tribal.

Actually a bow is pretty impressive against even modern armor. It all depends on range, head type, and 'pull'.

Kevlar, as the 'modern' anti balistic armor does well against a 9mm round, but poor against a knife. Vs a non broadhead arrow, it is almost useless:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IM7Bz2vXtY

Not in Dark Heresy it isn't.

Bow-using Assassins are either going after mooks that don't wear armor, or are hoping to shoot someone who doesn't wear a helmet in their eyeball.

Or they use high-tech "power arrows" or some similar technological edge that removes the "Primitive" quality from the weapon, because otherwise the bow isn't doing you any good.

But why use a bow when an MP lascannon makes sure the target is dead-as-feth no matter who they are?

 TheCustomLime wrote:


It is slower though. Maybe because what leman russes are made out of is heavy?

@ansacs

Wait, Apple already hasnt made people worship its tech?

Actually the Leman Russ isn't a dedicated military vehicle. It is essentially the most common and durable "tractor" type chassis from the STC with a bunch of armour plates bolted on. It would be much closer in price to a civilian tractor than a military tank. That is why the IG have billions of the things and throw them around like they are the cheap pieces of junk they are.

Fair enough. Though the apple people still haven't figured out the enforced prayer regime. That will probably be the iphone 42

 TheCustomLime wrote:


The problem is that we dont know how strong the futuristic magic metal is.

We have the published figures from at least Imperial Armour II for some things, which basically makes most stuff appear as armored as a typical mid-late WW2 tank. The big problem again is that basically 40k is a Fantasy universe in SciFi clothing, we've got knives and swords and axes and high energy particle weapons and everything in between. We have WW1 style snub-barreled howitzers, orbital laser cannon, railguns, common autocannon, missiles, etc alongside clubs and hydraulic claws and assault rifles. Stuff that shouldn't be anywhere near equal is often made equal. For instance, a charging Nob with a really big axe hits as hard as a large-bore autocannon.

Come on... their standard small arms can only shoot just over 30m gamewise! :-p

 TheCustomLime wrote:


The problem is that we dont know how strong the futuristic magic metal is. For all we know, its either a lower grade steel (since it is called ferrosteel) or much stronger than anything we can make. The size and bore of a cannon doesnt mean much either since size isnt everything with guns. It could be really powerful and accurate.

It is slower though. Maybe because what leman russes are made out of is heavy?

@ansacs

Wait, Apple already hasnt made people worship its tech?

Ferro steel would mean iron steel. Ferro means iron, so you have iron iron carbon, as steel is iron + carbon.

The M1A1's armor is actually a rather complex composite material meant to negate kinnetic energy. It can also be fitted with mass reactive armor which explodes outward negating incoming shells. Ferosteel, at least from everything I've ever read in the fluff, is not as advanced or effective as the rather magic armor of the M1.

The Leman Russ is not accurate, that is sort of the point. It is slow, lacks a sophisticated tracking system, lacks infrared, etc. It is, in all respects, technically inferior. It is a lego tank, this is the point. That it can be put together by any idiot. That means making it pretty basic and non-complex.

Direct weapon to weapon comparisons are impossible except we know that the M2 is essentially still used in 40k, and that's strength 4. Autoguns are M16s for all intents and purposes, so an average guardsman has about the same firepower as a modern rifleman. Training is probably about the same as well, you can only train a man so much, no matter how much tech you have access to.

So assuming that we can rule out super space materials that are impenetrable tactically modern armies would run rings around the Imperial Guard. Our vehicles are faster and their weapons hit harder and more accurately. The Imperial air defense network is actually pretty decent by modern standards, the guard has long range SAMs and something like radar guided AAA.

Actually thats a good question, does the IoM even have radar?

In the air its no contest. Imperial air capabilities are roughly where we were at in the 70's. The only advantage they have is laser tech.

Warfare in the 41st millennium is essentially a development of medieval warfare. It relies on individual fighting strength and places great emphasis on armored infantry. The imperium has a whole class of weaponry built to a requirement that would be utterly wasted fighting here on earth, plasma. A plasma gun kills a human just as easy as anything else does.

Strategically its another story. The guard can afford to send more of everything to any given battlefield than we can. Imperial guard units also have a massive logistical advantage over modern day units because of las technology. Honestly thats kind of the point, the guard would just hammer us into submission with more of everything. More planes, more guns, more tanks, more men.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:


The problem is that we dont know how strong the futuristic magic metal is. For all we know, its either a lower grade steel (since it is called ferrosteel) or much stronger than anything we can make. The size and bore of a cannon doesnt mean much either since size isnt everything with guns. It could be really powerful and accurate.

It is slower though. Maybe because what leman russes are made out of is heavy?

@ansacs

Wait, Apple already hasnt made people worship its tech?

Ferro steel would mean iron steel. Ferro means iron, so you have iron iron carbon, as steel is iron + carbon.

The M1A1's armor is actually a rather complex composite material meant to negate kinnetic energy. It can also be fitted with mass reactive armor which explodes outward negating incoming shells. Ferosteel, at least from everything I've ever read in the fluff, is not as advanced or effective as the rather magic armor of the M1.

The Leman Russ is not accurate, that is sort of the point. It is slow, lacks a sophisticated tracking system, lacks infrared, etc. It is, in all respects, technically inferior. It is a lego tank, this is the point. That it can be put together by any idiot. That means making it pretty basic and non-complex.

Actually steel is made by reducing the carbon content of iron. Depending on the grade of steel desired some carbon is actually reintroduced to achieve the correct percentage.

There is a story in the Tales of Heresy anthology where a squad of Dark Angels lands on a planet, very similar to our current tech level/govt system, they have fighter jets and the like. Anyway, even without meaning to engage in real hostilities that one squad kills thousands of soldiers and destroys several jets.

Everyone here is forgetting that it would not be a war of attrition where it's 2 oe 3 billion soldiers across the planet fighting the marines. No, it would be standard Astartes protocol. 1 company, dropped onto DC, 1 for Moscow, 1 for Beijing, Paris, London, Berlin, bam, major World powers lose their central leadership in one fell swoop. No dialogue between major nations to unite. Nuclear stores are tracked from Orbit and disabled by Mechanicum tech. Remaining World governements are all individually approached with offers for them to surrender. Pockets of resistance last decades but no real threat. Large portions of people are gathered up and sent to populate a quickly terraformed Mars and the moons of Jupiter. Catholic Church and other religions convinced that the Emperor is simply a manifestation of Abraham's god, the religiously influenced 3rd World embraces the Imperial cult, secular western nations fall in line due to a lack of organised resistance...100 years later, life has basically returned to normal except we pay tithes to Terra now.

Poly Ranger wrote:
A necron lord with mindshackle scarabs... pretty much becoming the mechanized version of the yerks from animorphs... but we have no Andalite morphing technology to help us.

Exulted 'cause I read those books.

KorPhaeron: Help me out here, I'm confused on how 100 men manage to take down *any* city. I live in a semi-large city, nowhere near the size of New York or Paris or Berlin, and I can't imagine 100 men with standard Adeptus Astartes gear and vehicles siezing our down-town and succesfully holding it, much less the city. Much less a city four times the size.

Even assuming that the Mechanicus can shut down technology completely incompatible with their own, even assuming that the marines *Could* eventually conquer any city, it would take time. A hell of a lot of time. Even just a day is a lot of time in war, and it would take weeks for 100 Marines to conquer a city of substantial size. And contrary to popular belief, knocking out our capitol doesn't mean you won. It doesn't mean you kinda hurt us. Tactically, a capitol is mostly just a morale victory. We can plan a counter-attack at our lesiure to strike back.

It all comes down to our lack of anti-spaceship weaponry. We've got nothing to defend against Orbital Bombardment, which really is the only thing that would cause us to lose, if anything did.

Earth would be conquered in a few days. The IG can send in more soldiers than the Earth has people on it, and ceramite and plasteel may very well be impenetrable for our weapons. Not to mention that the Imperium has vastly more powerful weapons and spaceships.

we call in the avengers, problem solved.

Waaaghpower wrote:
KorPhaeron: Help me out here, I'm confused on how 100 men manage to take down *any* city. I live in a semi-large city, nowhere near the size of New York or Paris or Berlin, and I can't imagine 100 men with standard Adeptus Astartes gear and vehicles siezing our down-town and succesfully holding it, much less the city. Much less a city four times the size.

Even assuming that the Mechanicus can shut down technology completely incompatible with their own, even assuming that the marines *Could* eventually conquer any city, it would take time. A hell of a lot of time. Even just a day is a lot of time in war, and it would take weeks for 100 Marines to conquer a city of substantial size. And contrary to popular belief, knocking out our capitol doesn't mean you won. It doesn't mean you kinda hurt us. Tactically, a capitol is mostly just a morale victory. We can plan a counter-attack at our lesiure to strike back.

It all comes down to our lack of anti-spaceship weaponry. We've got nothing to defend against Orbital Bombardment, which really is the only thing that would cause us to lose, if anything did.

Sorry, I didn't mean take out the whole capitol, so much as wipe out the central governements in one big hit. Drop pod assault into key areas and kill the leaders. The main point though is that this scenario is being governed by an arbitrary "No oribital bombardment clause" But quite honestly that would be the easiest solution the Imperium would have. The could independence day our major cities and then give an ultimatum, surrender or the rest of your cities die. It's exactly why America nuked the Japanese, because a war of attrition would have been costly and taken time. The imperium wouldn't waste billions of guardsmen when they can just glass a continent. That's assuming it even came to war. An intelligent commander would survey the planet, see that we are a world on the verge of an energy crisis in the next century. Speak to our leaders, agree lucrative deals between the 1% and the Adminstratum, and we'd be in the Imperium without ever even getting a choice. Arbites and Imperial cults would be set up across the population and we would struggle to ever shake off their grip afterwards. If we made a big fuss they could just virus bomb us and send a re-colonisation fleet in about 50 years later. If the whole Babab sector, with 4 Chapters and tons of stockpiled resources couldn't fight of the Imperium for much more than a decade, then we wouldn't stand a chance, no matter how many times we compare a lasgun to a AK-47.

That, and it seems everyone keeps miscalculating the strength of our missiles.

An imperial plasma weapon is S7, and is described as hitting with the intensity of a solar flare. Is there anything on earth, perhaps outside of thermite, that's like that?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That, and it seems everyone keeps miscalculating the strength of our missiles.

An imperial plasma weapon is S7, and is described as hitting with the intensity of a solar flare. Is there anything on earth, perhaps outside of thermite, that's like that?

Imperial Plasma is S7. So are autocannons, which fire hot lead. So is an Ork Nob with a big stick. Also, it's a 'Miniature Solar Flare.' In the same way that a water pistol could be called a 'Miniature Tsunami.' Or a Hair Dryer is a 'Miniature Windstorm.'

The key to a successful invasion would be the control of the high orbitals. orbital strikes from an imperial warship would be able to decimate any modern military formation, and without a space going force of our own, our only chance would be to damage the imperial ships with ICBM's.
Assuming we could in fact damage the imperial ships, to such a degree that they have to stay out of range, and they were forced to send in the ground troops, then it would all depend on the strength of our own military forces, versus that of the imperial guard who would likely form the bulk of any ground forces commited.

Equipment and training wise its logical to assume that a guardsman has at least equal, possibly superior equipment to our own. a guardsman is less dependent on logistics particularly because guardsman can replenish their small arms ammunition by dropping the power pack into a fire if they have to. artillery wise the guard has both SPG's and more standard artillery, same as we do, their APC's are amphibious, and have comparable armour to our own. Tank wise, We would probably have the advantage, i would say any 3rd generation MBT would be able to face the leman russ tanks of the IG and deal with them in short order, while if they faced the super heavies, well, there is a reason no super heavy tank was built after 1945, and that is they are slow, large targets.

The biggest difference would be in Doctrine. The imperial guard seems to be a force that tries to gain overwhelming numerical and mateial superiority in a small area, and then pounds the enemy flat. attacking with massed infantry supported by artillery and tanks. They have the ability to adopt what we would call modern mechanised warfare, but they seem to have similar doctrine to the russians did in the second half of WW2. arguably the germans had better trained infantry, better tanks, planes and routinely caused heavier casualties. but the russians still won

If we could take the Imperial navy out of the picture, and if we could get sufficient men and material to where it was needed, i feel that a modern military could tear the imperial guard to pieces. our tanks are better, i would argue our planes are better.

Space marines would be a different story. their tanks are still inferior to our own, their aircraft probably are too. as a heavy infantry force they would just walk over our infantry and probably force drastic measures. if they strike behind our lines, counter with daisy cutters and tactical nukes. down their aircraft and saturate the area with artillery, missiles and bombs until they are gone.

What the imperium would have to guarantee is that they took us out in the first wave, it might take a few years, and a few hundred million soldiers, but if we survived the initial invasion, technological development would take off. We're already very close to getting practical fusion power, imagine if we could reverse engineer a plasma (fusion) reactor from a super heavy or a titan. or w could copy the high energy capacitors used by every guardsman to fire their weapons. Quite aside from the green revolution that would take place. within a few years of the start of the war, our technological abilities would eclipse what they are currently.

TL/DR The imperial navy would guarantee victory, take them out of the picture, and the IoM has to win fast. if the first 'crusade' fails, then lord knows what we could come up with in the several centuries it would take to organise another

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That, and it seems everyone keeps miscalculating the strength of our missiles.

An imperial plasma weapon is S7, and is described as hitting with the intensity of a solar flare. Is there anything on earth, perhaps outside of thermite, that's like that?

Imperial Plasma is S7. So are autocannons, which fire hot lead. So is an Ork Nob with a big stick. Also, it's a 'Miniature Solar Flare.' In the same way that a water pistol could be called a 'Miniature Tsunami.' Or a Hair Dryer is a 'Miniature Windstorm.'

All that tells us is that autocannons have one hell of a punch (insta gibbing humans) and that Orks are absurdly strong.

What about other races?
Eldar are supposed to be preternaturally fast as are their vehicles and flyers. Could our weaponry/soldiers even hit them?

Would modern weaponry be able to penetrate Necron armor/necrodermis.

Or Tyranid carapaces/sheer volume of creatures.

I have no solid view either way, merely posing Qs.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That, and it seems everyone keeps miscalculating the strength of our missiles.

An imperial plasma weapon is S7, and is described as hitting with the intensity of a solar flare. Is there anything on earth, perhaps outside of thermite, that's like that?

Imperial Plasma is S7. So are autocannons, which fire hot lead. So is an Ork Nob with a big stick. Also, it's a 'Miniature Solar Flare.' In the same way that a water pistol could be called a 'Miniature Tsunami.' Or a Hair Dryer is a 'Miniature Windstorm.'

All that tells us is that autocannons have one hell of a punch (insta gibbing humans) and that Orks are absurdly strong.

Or that Plasma isn't as absurdly powerful as you think. Flying Monstrous Creatures take a S9 AP2 hit just from falling out of the sky. So, somewhere between five hundred pounds and a few tons crashing into the ground at about 100mph. (It's hard to get accurate weight numbers). This means that, if nothing else, Plasma is several orders of magnitude weaker than a crashing Beoing 747. I can do actual maths if you want. Also, we know that Orks are equally strong to Humans, and Nobs are about as strong as musclemen. That's not 'Absurdly strong.'
Our anti-tank guns will pretty much insta-gib humans, too.

Orks are not equally strong as humans. You have to remember that S3 can also mean that it dismembers unarmored targets (lasgun).

Can a single human, outside of Mortal Kombat, tear off another human's limb when he is still alive?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Orks are not equally strong as humans. You have to remember that S3 can also mean that it dismembers unarmored targets (lasgun).

Can a human, outside of Mortal Kombat, tear off another human's limb?

Guardsmen are S3. Sisters of Battle are S3. Orks are S3. Pretty much every human is S3, except a few special characters who are S4. This makes a military or healthy/fit human equal in strength to an Ork, and body builder humans equal to Nobz.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Orks are not equally strong as humans. You have to remember that S3 can also mean that it dismembers unarmored targets (lasgun).

Can a human, outside of Mortal Kombat, tear off another human's limb?

Guardsmen are S3. Sisters of Battle are S3. Orks are S3. Pretty much every human is S3, except a few special characters who are S4. This makes a military or healthy/fit human equal in strength to an Ork, and body builder humans equal to Nobz.

The problem with the 10 point stat system is that it does not offer a lot of a finesse, meaning that you have to use a bit of abstraction. Orks are stronger than humans, but not as strong as a space marine. Which is why, game wise, they are S3.

Nobs are S4, and they are meant to be en par with Space Marines background wise. A space marine can crush a human's skull with his bare hands. Can a body builder do the same?

madtankbloke wrote:

The biggest difference would be in Doctrine. The imperial guard seems to be a force that tries to gain overwhelming numerical and mateial superiority in a small area, and then pounds the enemy flat. attacking with massed infantry supported by artillery and tanks. They have the ability to adopt what we would call modern mechanised warfare, but they seem to have similar doctrine to the russians did in the second half of WW2. arguably the germans had better trained infantry, better tanks, planes and routinely caused heavier casualties. but the russians still won

The Russians won due to several reasons:

1. Germany was fighting on multiple fronts and could not put enough equipment and supplies into the Russian theatre
2. As a result Germany over extended and could not resupply their troops.

Almost within days the entire Russian air force was destroyed en mass by the German Luftwaffe, and the only thing that kept the Russian air corps in to come back was that the US proceeded to supply them with both equipment and technical knowhow (many of their fighter designs from mid-late war are based on US designs we supplied to them). Their primary tactic until then was to attempt to ram German fighters and hope they took them down because they were so massively outclassed (and imperial fighters are very much 1960s era equivalents in terms of weapon load outs and standard modus operandi in engagements).

The Russians also lost ~25 million men to push out an under equipped and under supplied German force. Without the British and American forces tying up as much German resources as they did, the Russians would have been conquered quite handedly (as they got pretty badly curb stomped until the German front effectively 'ran out of gas' enabling the mass up tactics of the Russians to win).

Germany's fatal mistake, and what cost them the war, was fighting two fronts at once with resources insufficient for that. Had they focused on just Western Europe or just Eastern Europe, they would have won that theatre.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Orks are not equally strong as humans. You have to remember that S3 can also mean that it dismembers unarmored targets (lasgun).

Can a human, outside of Mortal Kombat, tear off another human's limb?

Guardsmen are S3. Sisters of Battle are S3. Orks are S3. Pretty much every human is S3, except a few special characters who are S4. This makes a military or healthy/fit human equal in strength to an Ork, and body builder humans equal to Nobz.

The problem with the 10 point stat system is that it does not offer a lot of a finesse, meaning that you have to use a bit of abstraction. Orks are stronger than humans, but not as strong as a space marine. Which is why, game wise, they are S3.

Nobs are S4, and they are meant to be en par with Space Marines background wise. A space marine can crush a human's skull with his bare hands. Can a body builder do the same?

Sure, with the right leverage. He'd probably hurt his hands, but sure. Heck, I could crush a skull if I had a rock, and I'mno body builder. I'm not even a body repairman.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Orks are not equally strong as humans. You have to remember that S3 can also mean that it dismembers unarmored targets (lasgun).

Can a human, outside of Mortal Kombat, tear off another human's limb?

Guardsmen are S3. Sisters of Battle are S3. Orks are S3. Pretty much every human is S3, except a few special characters who are S4. This makes a military or healthy/fit human equal in strength to an Ork, and body builder humans equal to Nobz.

The problem with the 10 point stat system is that it does not offer a lot of a finesse, meaning that you have to use a bit of abstraction. Orks are stronger than humans, but not as strong as a space marine. Which is why, game wise, they are S3.

Nobs are S4, and they are meant to be en par with Space Marines background wise. A space marine can crush a human's skull with his bare hands. Can a body builder do the same?

Sure, with the right leverage. He'd probably hurt his hands, but sure. Heck, I could crush a skull if I had a rock, and I'mno body builder. I'm not even a body repairman.

Bare hands was the optimal term. As in he just squeezes. No tools, just one hand and squish.

There's also the little fact that the Space Marines are superhumans and meant to be stronger than a human.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That, and it seems everyone keeps miscalculating the strength of our missiles.

An imperial plasma weapon is S7, and is described as hitting with the intensity of a solar flare. Is there anything on earth, perhaps outside of thermite, that's like that?

Imperial Plasma is S7. So are autocannons, which fire hot lead. So is an Ork Nob with a big stick. Also, it's a 'Miniature Solar Flare.' In the same way that a water pistol could be called a 'Miniature Tsunami.' Or a Hair Dryer is a 'Miniature Windstorm.'

All that tells us is that autocannons have one hell of a punch (insta gibbing humans) and that Orks are absurdly strong.

A real life Bofors 40mm Autocannon with a rate of fire of 330 shells/minute and a potential range of several kilometers will insta-gib a person and they're 80 years old. If that's the equivalent of a plasma gun, then we very much do have similar weapons.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That, and it seems everyone keeps miscalculating the strength of our missiles.

An imperial plasma weapon is S7, and is described as hitting with the intensity of a solar flare. Is there anything on earth, perhaps outside of thermite, that's like that?

Imperial Plasma is S7. So are autocannons, which fire hot lead. So is an Ork Nob with a big stick. Also, it's a 'Miniature Solar Flare.' In the same way that a water pistol could be called a 'Miniature Tsunami.' Or a Hair Dryer is a 'Miniature Windstorm.'

All that tells us is that autocannons have one hell of a punch (insta gibbing humans) and that Orks are absurdly strong.

A real life Bofors 40mm Autocannon with a rate of fire of 330 shells/minute and a potential range of several kilometers will insta-gib a person and they're 80 years old. If that's the equivalent of a plasma gun, then we very much do have similar weapons.

Well, so can S6 assault cannons. Still, that is pretty nasty. What can it do to vehicles?