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I've looked for a thread on this, but I just can't find one.

So, what do people think? What are some options the Dwarfs have now that they didn't before?

- The most significant difference I'm picking up on is the number of small, cheap units. Gyrocopters are obviously the big one. But 5 Slayers is a measly 60pts. And 5 Rangers are only 80pts. Seems like you could field a wide variety of chaff, from flying with templates to Unbreakable to S5 in cc and S4 at range. Does this work?
A question on Gyrocopters, though: why is the Bombing Run so terrible?

- Dwarf anti-magic. So now...it's awful?

- Hammerers. OMG.

- Ironbreakers seem pretty awesome now, right? Has anyone had any luck, good or ill, with Irondrakes? And what about these nifty little cinderblast bombs?

- the Gyrobomber. Any opinions?

A final note: just one annoyance for me: the Runes of Fortitude and Iron. Why would I buy 3 in Iron when I could go with 2 in Fortitude and 1 in Iron, to upgrade my Regen to a Ward save? I guess I could do Rune of Fortitude X2 + Rune of Iron on my Lord, and Rune of Iron X3 on someone else...it just seems silly.

Dwarf anti magic is still amazingly better that most other armies, hammerers are toast in my meta and warriors are king, too many points for a easily killed hammerer for me sadly

With 2 games so far, I like the new dwarves. I now run smith, bsb, hammerers, shieldbeards, ironbeards (...drakes), 2 cannon, organ gun, 2 copters.

Bombing is fun, but decidedly not game-changing. If it were awesome the gyros'd have to be more expensive, and I like-em comparatively cheap.

Magic isn't noticeably worse than before with Valaya.

I use 2x slowness with drakes, and love-em so far. 1 game they caused things to fail a charge twice and blasted away at them. Another game the cinderbomb took out half a unit of khornehounds by itself.

The advantage of Bombing Run is that there will always be at least one turn where the 'Copter is moving a full 20" in order to get into position to steam something. The Bombing Run attack allows the 'Copter to still make some sort of offensive action while marching, which it wouldn't be able to do without that rule.

Well...first, Dwarf anti-magic should be loads better than any other army. Because. You know. They have no magic.
But now, they've got their flat +2 and some guys that grant MR and can channel (whoo-effing-hoo).
Balance is half as good as it used to be. Spellbreaking is good.

Valaya is a 60pt Master Rune. I can't imagine why you'd give your BSB anything but Grungi (60pts for a 4+ Ward on him and a 5+ vs. shooting on everyone nearby? Yes please). I guess Hammerers can take it? But then you're giving up on the Stubborn bubble.
Just doesn't seem like you've got a lot of options.

I get why Bombing Run has its use. It's just...flame template S3 AP, or artillery die S3 AP...just kind of lackluster and boring. Not saying it should be better. But maybe D6 S4 or something. Just to mix it up.

Flame template S3 AP is Lackluster ? oO

Warriors of Chaos might find it unimpressive, but try running any army with medium-large numbers ... That's anything from Elves to Skavens with Empire and Undead in the middle !

Warpsolution wrote:
Well...first, Dwarf anti-magic should be loads better than any other army. Because. You know. They have no magic.
But now, they've got their flat +2 and some guys that grant MR and can channel (whoo-effing-hoo).
Balance is half as good as it used to be. Spellbreaking is good.

Valaya is a 60pt Master Rune. I can't imagine why you'd give your BSB anything but Grungi (60pts for a 4+ Ward on him and a 5+ vs. shooting on everyone nearby? Yes please). I guess Hammerers can take it? But then you're giving up on the Stubborn bubble.
Just doesn't seem like you've got a lot of options.

I get why Bombing Run has its use. It's just...flame template S3 AP, or artillery die S3 AP...just kind of lackluster and boring. Not saying it should be better. But maybe D6 S4 or something. Just to mix it up.

The previous book's anti-magic was an artifact from two editions ago. Just like armies like Vampire Counts saw a dramatic reduction in the number of casting dice they could bring to the table with 8th edition army books, Dwarfs experienced a reduction in dispel dice they bring to the table. Dwarfs can still bring a +4 to dispel at a cheaper points cost than just about any other army, and are the only army that can still take multiple dispel scrolls. You also forgot that same model brings Armor Piercing to the unit he's in, as well. For 85 points, the model carries a dispel scroll, grants MR1 to his unit, can channel dispel dice, and grants Armor Piercing to the unit he's part of. Yes, whoo-hoo!

This may have escaped you, but you can take multiple units of Hammerers, allowing you to have both Valaya and the "stubborn bubble," if you so choose. You could then put them next to each other with the Grungni BSB in one corner of the units, granting the ward save against shooting to both. Then, you could put a non-Hammerer unit on the flank of the Hammerer unit with the Stubborn banner, resulting in three large blocks of Stubborn, Ld 10 models. You have plenty of options (for example, if you take Ungrim, a unit of Slayers can have 100 points of banner runes, opening up another option for an expensive banner rune).

An artillery die of S3 AP shots is far from lackluster when you can use it on a turn where 90% of other shooting units can do nothing, ie., when you've marched.

I get the feeling that Warpsolution hasn't played any games either with or against the new Dwarf book yet.

Warpsolution wrote:
Well...first, Dwarf anti-magic should be loads better than any other army. Because. You know. They have no magic.
But now, they've got their flat +2 and some guys that grant MR and can channel (whoo-effing-hoo).
Balance is half as good as it used to be. Spellbreaking is good.

Valaya is a 60pt Master Rune. I can't imagine why you'd give your BSB anything but Grungi (60pts for a 4+ Ward on him and a 5+ vs. shooting on everyone nearby? Yes please). I guess Hammerers can take it? But then you're giving up on the Stubborn bubble.
Just doesn't seem like you've got a lot of options.

I get why Bombing Run has its use. It's just...flame template S3 AP, or artillery die S3 AP...just kind of lackluster and boring. Not saying it should be better. But maybe D6 S4 or something. Just to mix it up.

They always had +2 army wide. Also, you're looking at bombing run (well, I assume you mean Dive Bomb as you said artillery dice not large template) incorrectly IMO - it's not for use instead of the steam gun, it's for the turns where you want to get into position and still do damage; you can still drop them whilst marching after all. In that sense, it's really good as it's just extra attacks in a turn you normally would be unable to do anything in. Maybe it's a little bleh in terms of damage vs risk, but it's still free essentially.

I think my largest issue with the new book is the lack of movement and lack of cheap units. Sure, Gyrocopters go super fast but once they die, there's nothing mobile in the army and nothing which makes them more mobile like the old anvil. You can Vanguard, but if your opponent has a fast army or scouts, you're screwed. Can they make a powerful list then? Sure - the same list they used to run when not using an anvil: guns in a castle. It's just frustrating to see, and though the Gyrocopters certainly make it more interesting than before they also just serve to make it more powerful. If anything, it's now worse to face than ever as you can afford to run more, smaller units thank to the stubborn banner. This lack of versatility isn't new to dwarfs for sure but it may be just as damning.

Hammerers are now up there with some of the best infantry in the game... if they can get into combat. As soon as people see these guys as your bunker unit, which they will thanks to them being pretty much the only thing that can take the stubborn banner realistically, they will be shot by all the magic in the army. Warlocks are a huge issue here - Doombolt ignores your heavy armour entirely and as they're fast cav, you'll never catch them in combat unless they want to be there. With weakened anti-magic, your only real solution is to either take 2 units (easier VP) or just pray for good dispells. They die in droves and you should expect them to die every game, but they're still very good indeed and S7 on the charge from two attacks is no laughing matter. I'm finding myself less and less enamoured with them as time goes on, but I can't even imagine building a list without them.

Ironbreakers are awesome, but situational. Strictly as an anvil unit, they're inferior to Warriors in every case other than WS5 infantry past the first turn of combat (and even then it's fairly close, 18 pt value vs 14). As a grinder, they're unmatched in the book - best armour, best parry, good S, good T (like all dwarfs) means that you can take charges and attrition enemies to death. My biggest issue with them are their slot - special is too crowded. In any dwarf list, you want a cannon with RoF, 2 gyrocopters and 20 Hammerers with musician, standard with RoGOE as an absolute minimum - that's 680 points of special before you've done anything. Even just 25 IBs with Std+Mus is 370 points, leaving a bare 150 points of special to use in 2400 point battles. Seems too much IMO for not enough.

Gyrobombers are a source of constant disappointment. If they were much more accurate (D6" scatter) and always bounced, they might compete with Gyrocopters better. As it is, I'd rather take an Organ Gun or Flame Cannon over them as they're just so unreliable. As far as I can tell, the clattergun may as well not be there - most of the time it's hitting on 6+, wounding on 3+, so you may as well not even fire with only 4 shots for all the difference it makes. The large blast wreaks havoc when it hits and bounces. Unfortunately in my experience, it grazes enemies by scattering wildly then rarely bounces into anything useful, meaning that I end up paying 45 more points per model for something which is actively worse than a copter. I'm sure one day the S6 D3 wound hole will be useful but until that day, I'm just using it as a cool looking copter. It's a damned shame, as it's easily my favourite model of the release too. I guess the additional mobility over a copter is nice at least, you can just march and drop every turn. I may just be unlucky, but hugely unimpressed with them.

Irondrakes are awesome. Or rubbish. Depends on what you're facing really. On the face of it, 4+ with 6+ ward and dragonbane gems each is solid with T4. On top of that, they have a solid S4, which is S5 on the charge - highly effective. They also get a quick to fire armour piercing S5 gun which, whilst short ranged, is utterly brutal and pretty much always hits on 5+. Their upgrades are nothing to sneeze at either - the Trollhammer is a missile launcher faux cannon shot and cinderblasts are a decent little bonus to people trying to charge you (side note: even though cinderblast can't S&S, does they count for the minimum range, i.e. do they make the unit fire at 8" in S&S?). With banner of slowness, you create the ideal unit - a heavy shooting unit that no-one wants to charge. On the other hand, armies which can skirt them will always do so meaning their extra cost over GW Quarrellers is wasted. Still, they may well find a permanent home in my lists because not only do they look badass, they're a tough unit with the shooting of an Organ Gun.

Stuff I feel is being underrated - Flame Cannons. Flame Cannons are nasty now - aside from a rules hiccup (which, though RAW seems to be different, I'm yet to play or see it be played as different to an extended range fire thrower) it's effective. I see people raving about the Organ Gun and how much it's changed or not; I rarely see people look at the alternative. Rather, Organ Guns will point at something, do an average of ~5 hits, ~3-4 wounds fairly reliably and do so at a decent range. The Flame Cannon with RoF costs as much as a kitted out Organ Gun, sure, but it kills everything. Monstrous infantry? D3 wounds. Horde? Bucket full of hits. Regen? Flaming. Low Ld? Almost assured panic test. It can be dodgy, but when it hits, you know about it. Trading AP for D3 multiple wounds, flaming and panic tests if you harm the unit may seem a poor trade, but it means there's never a time you aren't glad to have it. The only real issue IMO is accuracy.

Other stuff I feel is a bit underrated - miners. One of very few units able to get behind the enemy as dwarfs, these guys are basically GW warriors with ambush and soft cover from reserves. Remember I said special points were limited? Well, it's definitely true but at 10ppm, these guys are a decent way to fill up spare points. You don't need many - 10 will be enough to hunt war machines and honestly, you really don't need any upgrades on them other than maybe musician. Not a fantastic unit, but can sometimes save your gyros.

Runesmiths are awesome. 85 points for a dispell scroll which gives units AP? Seems pretty amazing to me. If you're not running 2, you're missing out.

Grimm Burloksson - I see a lot of people very much against SCs which makes me quite sad. Grimm is one of those guys you wish could be used everywhere, because he's pretty expensive but very cool. His weapons are none-too-shabby, going from a short ranged 2-6 shot handgun to a S6 AP axe which can break magic weapons. However, his real versatility is his master of accuracy rule - all of them are amazing effects. Rerolling flame cannon movement is fine and dandy, but rerolling to hit with Drakeguns or up to 42" (usually 37") ranged crossbows just feels dirty. Not really worth the points, but still fun.

They look really good to me. I still don't understand all their dynamics and I've been reading the book a lot. Especially on the toilet :p

The irondrakes come in about cost-wise and shotwise with a comparable organ gun. The organ gun has greater range by a lot but it's a war machine. The drakes have really nice armor and turn into decent troops.

Hammerers are pretty stupid. 6S 4T 2A 5WS 5+. And their SIX special rules. Though shieldwall doesn't really do anything. But they're just silly face.

Ironbreakers always having a 5+ parry is really nice. That's like a daemon. If you add a hero with oathstone they can parry flank and rear. I think the cinderbombs are pretty lame but they aren't expensive so you might as well take one.

Everything people said above is about right.

Gyrocopters are a great deal. They are 80 pts for 5T 3W 4+ save that can fly and shoot and bomb. I think it was a cop out they made them Unique unit types, that's going to cause issues.

Likewise, the rune system is good and interesting, but it's just going to get out of synch with the BRB. Maybe even at next release. This was an instance they shouldn't have listened to the players. It's overly complex for just one race. They got 7 pages of runes and magic items. There's a LOT of them. I mean, contrast with daemon gifts (who also can't take from the BRB--cept 50pt weapons).

@TanKol: I should clarify. I meant that both the steamgun and the Dive Bomb both being S3 AP feels thematically stale. Giving them slightly different values would have made the 'Copter feel more like what it is; a flying bag of tricks.

@Saldiven: Not sure if I appreciate the tone, but okay.

Dwarf anti-magic- so you're telling me they have one way to get +4 dispel, can have multiple Scrolls, and have MR.
...how does that make up for the fact of having no magic at all? Seems like they're just a little bit ahead of the anti-magic game, compared to other armies.
Problem with that is that a single spell can seal the deal in a combat. And not just Purple Sun and such. Enfeebling/Withering and similar spells can easily tip the balance. The fact that Dwarfs have a slightly better magic defense than other armies, but zero ability to offer anything on the offensive...it's tough.

I also did not forget that Runesmiths give your unit AP. I didn't mention it, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the magic phase.

Fair point on multiple Hammerers, but...eh. With Ironbreakers and Miners and Gyrocopters and war machines, there's plenty of other stuff to spend your points on.

And once again, I'm not saying 2-10 S3 AP hits is so terribly awful why bother. I'm saying it's not very impressive, and I'd just as soon they left it out and made the 'Copters a little cheaper.

@Ejyio: I know they've always had the +2. The "so now" was for the list as a whole.

And yes. Dive Bomb and such. I'd just rather they be cheaper.

Has anyone tried small units of Miners, Slayers, and/or Rangers? Seems like those, with Gyrocopters, could result in a lot of craziness on your opponent's side of the table, fairly early on.

Warpsolution wrote:
@TanKol: I should clarify. I meant that both the steamgun and the Dive Bomb both being S3 AP feels thematically stale. Giving them slightly different values would have made the 'Copter feel more like what it is; a flying bag of tricks.

@Saldiven: Not sure if I appreciate the tone, but okay.

Dwarf anti-magic- so you're telling me they have one way to get +4 dispel, can have multiple Scrolls, and have MR.
...how does that make up for the fact of having no magic at all? Seems like they're just a little bit ahead of the anti-magic game, compared to other armies.
Problem with that is that a single spell can seal the deal in a combat. And not just Purple Sun and such. Enfeebling/Withering and similar spells can easily tip the balance. The fact that Dwarfs have a slightly better magic defense than other armies, but zero ability to offer anything on the offensive...it's tough.

I also did not forget that Runesmiths give your unit AP. I didn't mention it, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the magic phase.

Fair point on multiple Hammerers, but...eh. With Ironbreakers and Miners and Gyrocopters and war machines, there's plenty of other stuff to spend your points on.

And once again, I'm not saying 2-10 S3 AP hits is so terribly awful why bother. I'm saying it's not very impressive, and I'd just as soon they left it out and made the 'Copters a little cheaper.

@Ejyio: I know they've always had the +2. The "so now" was for the list as a whole.

And yes. Dive Bomb and such. I'd just rather they be cheaper.

Has anyone tried small units of Miners, Slayers, and/or Rangers? Seems like those, with Gyrocopters, could result in a lot of craziness on your opponent's side of the table, fairly early on.

Ah, I did wonder but I thought best to check. I wish they'd given Ironbreakers a higher banner limit - I guess the intent was so you couldn't just stick GOE on them but it would have been magnificent to have them with 2 runes of battle. I mean, you still can with the BSB but you generally want Grungi on that... too many good options basically. Still, that would be a unit with +3 combat res if you could which on a unit with 3+/5++ basically means you're going to win combat most of the time. I doubt gyros would ever get cheaper though - that steam gun and flying on a T5 W3 unit with a 4+ is very good.

Small units do okay. Rangers are eh, if you have the spare rare points I can see them being decent but at the end of the day, they're great weapon quarrellers with scouts and throwing axes. That's not bad, but why would you when the reason you're taking crossbows is for their range, it would almost certainly get you out of your stubborn bubble and provide nothing of worth. I can see uses with a vanguard list (which I think is a silly idea anyway) but that's honestly about it. Unless you need scouts, just take more quarrellers. Heck, even if you have the spare points I'd rather try and fit in Irondrakes - you can get 20 with Vanguard for the price of 23 and a bit Rangers, but they're tougher, have better shooting and do much the same. Slayers are just... I mean, they move 3" and have no save. You can take as many or as few as you want but most of the time, they will die out of combat. Small units are just begging for enemies to shoot at them for free VP - it may seem like that's helping the rest of your army but it's not at all, because those Slayers could have just not been there and been more, better models instead yielding no VP. I really don't see a use for them at all other than vanguarding and I'd rather take a better unit to vanguard which can do something other than die. Even as chaff, that's 60 points which can't really manoeuvre and is toast if the enemy looks at you funny. For 20 more, you can take another gyrocopter which is tougher most of the time, is faster and does more damage generally. Miners though I've had some success with. They help break up the monotony of castle with gyros and make your opponent hold things back so their war machines don't die - pretty much the only thing which can stake such a claim. They're still not amazing but they are basically warriors with great weapons and a better version of ambush - used as such, they can be fairly disruptive in any game. Let's face it - T4 5+ with a great weapon which either makes them S5 or S6 if you charge is actually really decent for 10 points. You're not going to live long in a prolonged fight, but you can murder just about any chaff/war machine fairly effectively.

This is all fairly new impressions of the book though, it may well still turn out that the ideal build is shield thunderers with rangers - I have no idea myself. I'm still on the fence about longbeards - some days they seem really good for comparable core, others I can't even consider taking them. I think they're a little weak but then I think shield longbeards are being underrated (T4 4+ with S4, S5 on the charge and immune to psychology is pretty good, let's be honest). We'll see.

Their banner limit is 50. What units have a higher banner limit? It's not like they are Lords.

The army I fought against with my skaven was probably a bit sub-par and mine was probably pretty decent. I started using a no magic list though I had weapons teams and large targets as well as a storm banner.

I did pretty well actually. Nothing really caused me much trouble except the hammerers and the irondrakes somewhat and it was mostly the hammerers.

-----------------

I find running skaven without magic is actually probably much better since magic doesn't do too much for skaven these days anyway. I'm better off using those extra points for more weapons teams, war machines or units.

I also use a buffed out warlord on a war litter. He has a 2+ armor save, 4+ ward save, biting blade (armor piercing), 4 str 4 attacks with himself and 4 with his bodyguard and I think it was the 'crown of command' (which gives his whole unit stubborn). An always stubborn unit of storvermin with a leader who refuses to die easily is pretty nice. Basically my enemy almost has to reduce my stormvermin to almost nothing or kill my warlord to beat the unit. Flanking the unit is possible. As long as I keep my BSB alive and prevent myself getting flanked the stormvermin should stay in combat a long, long time.

--------------------

The boosted parry save and boosted strength with charging is pretty ridiculous on dwarfs though. Not to mention they automatically hate skaven and O&G so they re-roll to hit in every combat against my skaven which isn't a fun prospect. Somehow I still managed to win easily. I don't know how but it happened. Possibly because he's new at dwarfs and therefore not too good at them (but everybody is getting used to them) as well not having enough good models for dwarfs.

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Their banner limit is 50. What units have a higher banner limit? It's not like they are Lords.

I don't think the current Vampire Counts army book has it but the older one used to allow people to take a magic standard worth 75 pts on blood knights (I think the 75 pts banner was the +4 ward save vs ranged attacks banner and it could be taken on a BSB at the time too and possibly the limit allowed the regeneration banner but I'm not sure). You can still take the same banner but it is the only banner you can take over 50 pts for that unit whereas before you could take any banner up to 75 pts with that unit.

When you play skaven without magic you lose out on so much power and entertainment! Plague can be devastating, maybe not especially against dwarfs, but still. and using the dreaded 13th on those small expensive dwarf units is a must. I once turned an entire unit of ironbreakers into ratmen. How is that not powerful??

Mostly, I think the dwarf book is a huge missed opportunity.
Dwarfs needed a huge overhaul.
They were mostly defined by what they don't have.
No cavalry.
No mages.
No monsters.
No monstrous units.
No movement.
No common magic items.

Some of these were compensated for by other things (no mages, but could shut down the magic phase pretty well; no common items, but runes, instead; no monsters, but dwarf lords can be runed up to be among the hardest characters in the game, etc)

All the dwarf army has is slow (!) infantry and war machines.
That needed to change. It didn't.
What they got, instead, was essentially a minor update, where they got none of what they needed, but some of the compensation got nerfed -runes and anti-magic, mostly -, and other things got minor tweaks, (unit statlines, points costs, etc).

Huge missed opportunity to shake things up a bit, and give the Dawi some love.

Bran Dawri wrote:
That needed to change.

Sorry, couldn't disagree with your entire post more.
If those things changed, it wouldn't be a Dwarf Army, it would take away what makes them different from other armies.

They've been given a really solid book, with some great improvements.

The Gyrocopters as they are now make a huge difference that cannot be underestimated
They are also much more efficient in combat without having to rely on the ASF crutch

It's like if they were giving (non-crazy mechanical explosive) flyers and cavalry to Skavens, wouldn't make any sense

I didn't say all of them needed to change, but without something to shake up the Dwarf army make-up (ie, slow infantry and warmachines), nothing is ever going to make another tactic as good as castling for them.
And I want to be able to attack with my dwarves without feeling like I'm artificially handicapping myself even more than I already am by playing dwarves.
...
And magic isn't it - that will only encourage more castling (and is to me the most truly dwarfish trait).
I like dwarves not having cavalry, as well, but not so much that I couldn't live with something well-concepted and executed.
There is absolutely no reason Dwarves couldn't have some monster or other in the form of either dwarf-made golems or an earth elemental-type creature (or to a lesser extent fire elementals) that the Dawi have an... understanding with.

And there haven't really been that many improvements to the book. Hammerers, to be sure. Gyro's, absolutely. I suppose quarrellers and miners got a minor upgrade as well. The army-wide special rules also help. But that's pretty much it.

A lot of other things got actively worse, or at best stayed the same.
Thanes got a minor leadership increase, but their equipment got more expensive. Runesmiths got worse at magic defense, but got cheaper and gained some minor other abilities in return. I'd say about even.
Warriors are much the same as they were. Thunderers got worse, but also cheaper, so about even again.
Longbeards got a minor upgrade to their special rules, but also more expensive (and are completely outclassed by Hammerers for offense, and by Ironbreakers for defense). Ironbreakers got even better defensively, but also increased in points, so about even.
Slayer skill got worse, but they gained Deathblow but got more expensive. Not sure whether that's a break even, or a minor net loss. Grudge thrower stayed the same (but engineering runes on the whole got worse). Rangers got moved to rare, but got a discount on their equipment; about even, I'd say.
Organ changed a lot, but on balance, I think it's about the same.
Flame cannon is back to where it was before 8th edition and the completely incomprehensible dwarf FAQ nerfing an already iffy choice completely to heck rolled around.

Runelords are now completely worthless. So are most weapon runes, and most armour runes (although there are a few really good ones there). Cannons and Bolt Throwers got worse.


As already mentioned, the vaunted dwarf resistance to magic has taken a big hit, without being compensated for in magic offense (not that dwarfs ought to have offensive magic) or some other area (like being able to put more dwarves on the field). But given how incredibly game-swinging magic can be (to avoid saying broken), I don't think the oft-bemoaned dwarf magic resistance of the old book was over the top.
I love my dwarves, but this book was exactly what they didn't need.

@Bran: Check out Bugmans' Brewery, if you haven't already. The majority of the posters over there are reporting a high winning percentage on the tournament scene; far higher than the prior book did at any point in 8th edition.

There must be SOMETHING good about the book.

Bran Dawri wrote:
nothing is ever going to make another tactic as good as castling for them.

Not true at all. There are many viable dwarf builds.

Yes they're slow infantry. Always will be.
Combat infantry don't need to castle. Oathstone is now mobile allowing infantry blocks to advance without the danger of being flank charged. The castle is now mobile.

Dwarfs still have access to more anti-magic than any other race. MR of Valya is cheaper than ever. Ground I stacks with a Runesmith's magic resistance. Multiple runes of spell breaking can be taken across the army (no other army can do that!). They've lost a dispel dice, but gained so much more!

Dwarves did get a monster. Lord on shield. With runes he gets the stat line equal to any races monster (can even let him breathe fire!) with the added bonus of going in a unit.

Longbeards are great! Rules improved, so many options in terms of equipment, runes, characters... And they're core, so don't restrict the other options.
They had one build in the last book, now they have many options (HW+shield! runesmith, oathstone... Very tough unit).

Rangers work great for a themed army, you're no longer restricted to one unit.

Thunderers and quarrellers are now a more even choice. Free armour upgrade, quarrellers with great weapons are still a great offensive choice, thunderers with shields work great as a defensive unit. Dwarven gunline lists have never been more effective.
Flame cannon is a viable alternative to the Organ Gun now.

You can't treat them the same as the old book, look at them with a new perspective and you'll see it's an overall huge improvement, with so many options available.

Quoting what I disagree / want to comment on only, agree with the rest

There is absolutely no reason Dwarves couldn't have some monster or other in the form of either dwarf-made golems or an earth elemental-type creature (or to a lesser extent fire elementals) that the Dawi have an... understanding with.

Big tunnels, too dangerous / unstable technology frowned upon by engineers

Thanes got a minor leadership increase, but their equipment got more expensive.

Going from 9 to 10 is HUGE, the equipment change is negligible

Runesmiths got worse at magic defense, but got cheaper and gained some minor other abilities in return. I'd say about even.

AP is NOT a minor ability in 8th edition, AS is often the most vital stat of a unit

Thunderers got worse, but also cheaper, so about even again.

worse at shooting, much better in CC with heavy armor and shieldwall

Longbeards got a minor upgrade to their special rules, but also more expensive (and are completely outclassed by Hammerers for offense, and by Ironbreakers for defense).

It's called "being an super-duper elite Core choice"

Slayer skill got worse, but they gained Deathblow but got more expensive. Not sure whether that's a break even, or a minor net loss.

Deathblow is an incredibly good skill once you see it in action, they make deathstars cry

but engineering runes on the whole got worse

Penetrating has been "unbroken", Forging is much better, others are mostly unchanged

Rangers got moved to rare, but got a discount on their equipment; about even, I'd say.

Scouts ... awesome when paired with runes of Trololo

Runelords are now completely worthless.

Runelords are resilient runesmiths granting the same advantages, having the ability to have spellbreaker runes AND other runes ... maybe not super-awesome, but not bad

So are most weapon runes,

Weapon runes are indeed completely gak outside of tailored lists when you know what you'll face (dragons/daemons)

and most armour runes (although there are a few really good ones there).

Most armour runes are very very good, +T / +W / +AS ? Yes please ... Regen or Ward ? yeah sure I'll have two !

Cannons and Bolt Throwers got worse.

Cannons got the normal pricing for Great Cannons (S10 D6 wounds), rune of forging is cheaper and better
Bolt Thrower didn't really change (better with engineer nearby)

I don't think the oft-bemoaned dwarf magic resistance of the old book was over the top.

Yes it was, you could basically remove an entire phase with 3 runes
Now you can still take the Valaya rune (on hammerers), and the rune of balance is still good, not just auto-include, spellbreaking runes are still solid and you can still take several of them

Gyrocopters are waaaay underpriced (thank you Storm Banner) and hammerers are very, very strong (White Lions + Swordmasters rolled in one) with a potential 75 points banner
The only "bad choices" I see in the book are:
Anvil
Bolt Thrower
Belegar & High King (S4 attacks, yay!)

Warpsolution wrote:
I've looked for a thread on this, but I just can't find one.

So, what do people think? What are some options the Dwarfs have now that they didn't before?

- The most significant difference I'm picking up on is the number of small, cheap units. Gyrocopters are obviously the big one. But 5 Slayers is a measly 60pts. And 5 Rangers are only 80pts. Seems like you could field a wide variety of chaff, from flying with templates to Unbreakable to S5 in cc and S4 at range. Does this work?
A question on Gyrocopters, though: why is the Bombing Run so terrible?

- Dwarf anti-magic. So now...it's awful?

- Hammerers. OMG.

- Ironbreakers seem pretty awesome now, right? Has anyone had any luck, good or ill, with Irondrakes? And what about these nifty little cinderblast bombs?

- the Gyrobomber. Any opinions?

A final note: just one annoyance for me: the Runes of Fortitude and Iron. Why would I buy 3 in Iron when I could go with 2 in Fortitude and 1 in Iron, to upgrade my Regen to a Ward save? I guess I could do Rune of Fortitude X2 + Rune of Iron on my Lord, and Rune of Iron X3 on someone else...it just seems silly.

Small cheap units are good. Small cheap M3 units are much harder to make work.
Anti-magic is still good. You still get multiple dispel scrolls, and that is a big deal.
Hammerers. 1 more attack from the front rank is nice, but they die just as fast as ever. I find nearly no difference in killing them, because I wasn't killing them in melee before, and I'm still not now.
Ironbreakers seem solid to me. Especially with a Smith for AP and MR.
Gyrobomber is better on paper. It murders big blocks of T3 infantry, but so does everything. Big blocks of T3 infantry isn't usually what is giving dwarfs problems, and being in the same slot as the flame cannons, I'd go flame cannon instead, every time.

As for the Rune combos, the answer is easy. Your lord takes 2 fort + 1 iron. It's 3 Iron for the 2nd lord.
Why would empire buy Armor of Silvered Steel when they get Meteoric Armor? It's because somebody else is already wearing the Meteoric Armor. Same deal with dwarves.

As far as performance, New Dwarves seem to be doing better against monstrous infantry and monstrous cav, and low model count enemies.
They seem to be doing worse against MSU chaff armies.
I think this is because dwarves got better, but more expensive. Less beards on the table than before.


-Matt

I think it's a right on saying they are (much) better vs. big single-unit and MC/MI units and worse vs. MSU. But stuff like Gyrocopters can help with those. If they are super tiny MSU, even dwarfs can overrun.

Warriors, Ironbeards, Hammerers, Ironbreakers are like so similar to me. It's almost down to where you choose to allocate your points. You start giving your core GW and they work almost exactly the same as the specials.

But I think it's the breadth of choices that really helps them, and is some of the biggest boons to these late 8th books. Kind of like the early WoC criers, I can't fathom how anyone is saying they are worse than they were last edition.

For the record, I'm not saying Dwarfs worse off as such on a competitive level. I'm saying that gameplay-wise, they haven't really changed nor gained many new tricks.

A number of units got worse, strictly speaking (cannons and bolt throwers got more expensive for no benefit, for instance). Other units didn't change much, and others got better.

On the whole, the positives outweigh the negatives.

For me, personally, though, there are some things I really don't like.

What I really dislike is that some things have become absolute no-brainer choices or practically mandatory - gyrocopters, certain armour runes, runesmith(s) with scroll(s), etc.
Plus, after playing dwarfs for about 15 years, I would've liked more than one new unit that is only another infantry choice, especially given all the new stuff that, for instance, High Elves got over the last two books - and I'm not talking about the broken banner.

My opinion of dwarves is that over the four books. They have not changed. AT ALL.

Sure. They got the 8th treatment and have been given new toys. But they are still the same, stagnant, stale pile of whatever that people didn't like in the previous editions, and they don't like now.

I'd agere with all of that. I was pretty bummed out at their treatment of Slayers.
I mean, they're like the effing mascots of Warhammer. Nothing in this game is so iconic and so unique, compared to all the other fantasy out there, as the tattooed, death-seeking Dwarf with the orange Mohawk.

Why aren't they and Rangers skirmishers, at the least? Sheesh.

A lot could have been done, and only a bit of that actually was.

Worst crime, in my opinion, is still the insistence of the Rune system and the complete lack of magic.
Would have been so easy to make a Rune Lore; justify it in the fluff (they're not tapping into the Winds of Magic like Wizards do, they trapped that power in their runes before the battle blah blah blah), and have an army that is tons easier to balance with the others, and is much more variable in gameplay.

Warpsolution wrote:
I'd agere with all of that. I was pretty bummed out at their treatment of Slayers.
I mean, they're like the effing mascots of Warhammer. Nothing in this game is so iconic and so unique, compared to all the other fantasy out there, as the tattooed, death-seeking Dwarf with the orange Mohawk.

Why aren't they and Rangers skirmishers, at the least? Sheesh.

A lot could have been done, and only a bit of that actually was.

Worst crime, in my opinion, is still the insistence of the Rune system and the complete lack of magic.
Would have been so easy to make a Rune Lore; justify it in the fluff (they're not tapping into the Winds of Magic like Wizards do, they trapped that power in their runes before the battle blah blah blah), and have an army that is tons easier to balance with the others, and is much more variable in gameplay.

Kinda curious how runes even work in the first place if not by SOME kind of magic, else they would just be nothing more then carved symbols into metal and rock that well, no different then carving your name into a pebble. So why that can't be turned into a magic system beats me.
I guess its supposed to be something that sets them apart from the other factions.

Runes basically harness the winds of magic in a more safe, controlled way to the random willy-nilly throwing around of energy of the lesser races.

Comparable to using an electrical appliance with an earthing mechanism instead of flying a kite in a thunderstorm.

My problem is basically the same as thedarkavenger's, albeit to a lesser degree.

'Copters are flyers. Can't they march and shoot unless there is something I'm missing in the rules?

 nathan2004 wrote:
'Copters are flyers. Can't they march and shoot unless there is something I'm missing in the rules?

My understanding is that units of multiple flyers have the Skirmish rule, but individual flyers do not.