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Hi all, I am struggling to win against my regular opponent. He plays blood angels, usually a predator with lascannons and a rhino/razorback with a couple of assault squads with flamers, meltaguns and a powerfist. He also has a priest and a Reclesiarch. The list changes a bit, sometimes it will be a librarian instead of reclesiarch, or sometimes he'll bring a whilwind, but we play at 750-1000 points so the basic list is always the same.

I bring veterans in chimeras with meltas or plasma, plus as many leman russes as i can cram in. Our games always devolve into his assault squads rushing towards me, and shooting/assaulting me turn 2 or 3. It's just a matter of whether or not I can kill enough of his assault troops in round 1 and 2 before he wrecks my vehicles. Usually I can't, and since blood angels waste vehicles in assault I'm usually left with a charred parking lot by turn 5. Once or twice I have gotten lucky and my opponent clumped together a 12 man reclesiarch squad which my Demolisher and Executioner promptly destroyed, but usually I get pummeled.

Advice would be appreciated. Cheers.

Given that BA have horrible model count and horrible firepower, I'd say shoot them down to where they are no longer combat effective.

Spread yourself out and force him to assault one element at a time and then light him up after he wins the assault. Bring plenty of plasma vets and maybe a colossus gun if you really want to bring the pain.

Not to be a debbie downer, but BA are the worst list in the game by a fair margin at the moment. Orks, Daemons, and Tyranids are more fearsome in assault.

I remember when Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights were a force to be reckoned with. So many tricks up their sleeve and fast and hard-hitting.

Hopefully they'll get a new 'dex soon.

As to the OP: You deal with them as you deal with any other assault based army. You feed them throwaway units and back away until they are no longer fit to advance, then just tarpit or finish them off.

Space Wolves and Grey Knights are still pretty boss compared to BA. BA were only a gimmick list in 5th, and if you understood the gimmicks, you could own them badly. They've only gotten worse since.

The same answer imperial guard has to 80% of "issues". Battlecannons.

Yeah, BA are a pain for guard armies. Always were, and likely always will be. Their current codex's combination of nearly as good shooting with much better speed and assault generally outclasses.

Are you finding that your chimeras are getting destroyed before the assault troops hit? If so, keeping them a little safer should be a higher priority for you. Done right, you should get a turn to drive up and shoot the assaulters, then a round of overwatch as he assaults the transports, then another round of shooting, and then another round of overwatch when he charges. That SHOULD be enough shooting, assuming that you're bringing enough firepower.

Also, what's probably going on is a matter of concentration. If you keep your whole army together, you'll be able to really focus down his assaulters, especially at this low points value where space isn't so much of a premium, and he's not going to be bringing as many assaulter.

Creating a castle of mechvets and artillery, or a tortoise of mechvets and russes should do the trick. Perhaps throw in a squad of melticide stormtroopers to bring the fight to his exposed support units mid-game, and you should be good to go.

Otherwise, I can't give more advice without something akin to a battle report (showing lists, how you moved, which targets you prioritized, etc.)

In 6th ed, BA should be no problem for IG. Been on both sides of that. BA don't have the model count to compete.

'Nearly as good shooting'??? As guard? I want whatever you've been smoking :-p!

Poly Ranger wrote:
'Nearly as good shooting'??? As guard? I want whatever you've been smoking :-p!

I missed that. Whatever. Most players know this is not true at all.

Martel732 wrote:
In 6th ed, BA should be no problem for IG. Been on both sides of that. BA don't have the model count to compete.

As a (really not) long time BA player, i sadly says it's correct
to beat a BA army just shoot them down

after the self complain, there's some advices
the only BA list that could do something else than give kill point for free is a vehicle list; so expect a lot of low armour fast moving tank, and some AV13 or AV14 ones
Baal Predators could be tricky 'cause with scout they can alpha strike template weapon on first turn on your soft cover-dependent trooper. Also expect some Fragioso dreadnaught and/or flamer assault marines on pod. Pod drop (and maybe also a null deployement only pod list) could be the only thing you really should fear. He can't flame you to the dead, however, 'cause IG are too many so be prepared to a massive assault tactic.

assault marines are huge to face, and if he's crazy enough to bring the DC they can rip apart almost every unit you got, but DC is very expensive so they will be very few, or his only unit on the field. Don't be afraid, by the time DC/assault marine gets to assault range and start crushing your trooper, probably the game is over and you control all the objective. Kill point game can be a little more tricky 'cause of course you will have a lot more kp on the table

if you normally use vendettas, maybe he will bring stormraven, 'cause the 'raven is the only think he can use to shoot down flyers. SR can be a pain in the arse, and a well placed one can shoot down 2 vendettas in a single shooting phase with a little luck (lascannon and missile on one, multi melta with power of the machine spirit on the other one). However, he will need a good maneuvering and vendettas can shoot down stormraven too so just pay attention at stormraven's position. Also, SR cost 200 point, vendetta 130.
If you normally use a lot of tank (and i dunno if IG can play a list without tank to be honest ) he sure will put anti vehicle unit, like meltagun trooper, and you can easily shoot down, meltagun/magna grapple dreadnaught and stormraven. The dread are a pain in the arse only if drop podded and you can outmaneuver it wih a little effort.

He can use a Dante+ infernus pistol Sanguinary Guard to tactical precision behind your enemy line and melta tanks while using a Priest to being able to stand your fire retaliation and charge assault in the next phase. It's a 600 point combination and most of the time is a totally waste of point, and sure cannot melta all your tank neither assault all your trooper. Also, they will go on the field on 2+ turn so you need only to resist and kite them around. If he choose this tactic, probably will get very low body count so expect only few other units and/or tanks

Probably the only thing you would fear can be land raider spam, and eventually TH/SS termies with corbulo (FNP to the unit and FNP 2+ on him). This can eviscerate almost anything you can put on the table, but are slow (once you pop the 'raider) so kite them around

in conclusion: there is nothing to fear from BA armies, unless you are playing a "for fun" list (and if that's the case, you don't need to worry 'cause you only here for fun)
my 2 cent

Personally, I'd bring 2 standard battle tanks and a vanquisher with pask and a lascannon (no squadrons) and a lone bane wolf. This leaves 350 points to spend on troops in chimeras with plasmas and meltas (In any combination you prefer)

Thankyou everyone for your replies and understanding!

50 man blob, commisar or lord commisar in there and FRFSRF

That should end anyones day.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
50 man blob, commisar or lord commisar in there and FRFSRF

That should end anyones day.

Replace Commissars with the no brainer alternative of a Psychic Inquisitor and you're on the right track. Far better in pretty much every way and you get re-rolls on the dice bucket.

Martel732 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
'Nearly as good shooting'??? As guard? I want whatever you've been smoking :-p!

I missed that. Whatever. Most players know this is not true at all.

Ad populum.

And BA shooting is often overlooked, because "it's a close combat" army, and guard shooting is often overvalued. In this case, you're talking about slow guard vehicles with large blast weapons and slower guard infantry stuck with BS3 against fast blood angels with a plethora of BS4 lascannon and melta, and often on fast vehicles. BA can still razorspam, and can still take tri-las predators, as well as baal preds.

Especially at lower points levels, BA can hold its own against guard in shooting and still be able to use leftover units to nail it in assault.

A vestigial from the days when SW were the choppy SM and BA were the shooty SM. Mat Ward decided to keep them just as shooty while also making them way more choppy.

I have to completely disagree Ailaros. BA firepower is capped quite low due to low model count. The throw weight just isn't there.

But that's thinking like a guardsman. BA firepower isn't the same. You don't get as many guns, but they hit more often, and there are more weapons per carrier in some cases.

BA don't need models on the table to fire? How is it not the same?

BS 4 is a downgrade compared to BS 3 if the BS 3 guys get twice as many shots. Come on, you know better than this.

Ad hominem.

2 tri-las predator costs 360 points for fast tanks that puts down 4.46 lascannon hits, while three lascannon HWSs (330) put down 4.5 lascannon hits. Basically the same number of lascannon hits for basically the same price, but the blood angels field fast AV13, rather than extremely squishy T3 infantry.

Blood angels shooting can certainly keep up with most of what guard has to offer. You don't have to only play DoA to play BA, and you only need to be a little bit better than mech guard in close combat to be better in close combat.

 Ailaros wrote:
Ad hominem.

2 tri-las predator costs 360 points for fast tanks that puts down 4.46 lascannon hits, while three lascannon HWSs (330) put down 4.5 lascannon hits. Basically the same number of lascannon hits for basically the same price, but the blood angels field fast AV13, rather than extremely squishy T3 infantry.

Blood angels shooting can certainly keep up with most of what guard has to offer. You don't have to only play DoA to play BA, and you only need to be a little bit better than mech guard in close combat to be better in close combat.

I think you're using a skewed comparison, but knock yourself out. BA shooting can NOT keep up with IG. Not on their best rolling day. Because they don't have the number of shots nor the artillery options.

And I guess you don't know better. Ad hominem retracted. You can list perceived fallacies till the cow comes home, but that doesn't make the BA any less overcosted or any less outgunned.

BA devestators put down a lascannon hit per 71 points you spend compared to a vendetta's 58 - not that far away from the best lascannon platform this side of forgeworld. A vindicator costs 20 points less than a demolisher, but comes on a fast tank platform instead of an extra-slow heavy vehicle. BA can take a rifleman dread which is 33 points to an autocannon hit vs. autocannon HWSs 25. Sternguard badly outclass guard's special weapons alternative.

I'm sorry that you're having a hard time facing the facts, but the numbers make it pretty clear. BA shooting averages from nearly as good to slightly better than guard shooting. They can certainly hold their own.

The only thing that guard can do that BA really can't is long-range large blast weapons, but that class of weapon is pretty near the bottom of the barrel in a world of fliers and monstrous creatures. You might as well say that guard shoot better than BA because BA don't have access to lasguns.

For everything else, cold, hard numbers don't lie.

What about mid-strength weapon spam with Chimeras? You seem to be cherry picking very specific examples.

BA devs are way more fragile than a Vendetta. 71 pts vs 58 is significantly more expensive as well.

Vindicators are effectively AV 11 and so usually only get off one shot vs multiple shots from the demolisher.

I've never seen a rifleman dread in a BA list, but going from 33 pts per autocannon to 25 is statistically significant.

Sternguard in no way outclass plasma vets due to their high points per model.

I'm sorry that you have a habit of cherry picking your examples and conveniently leaving out downsides for your BA examples.

Off the top of my head quickly using the IG codex:

Lord commissar
Melta bombs

Veteran squad
3 meltas
Chimera

Veteran squad
3 meltas
Chimera

Veteran squad
3 plasma
Chimera

Veteran squad
3 plasma
Chimera

Veteran squad
3 plasma
Chimera

Marbo

Vendetta

Vendetta

Vendetta

2 x basilisk

2 x basilisk

2 x griffon

2k

Please show me a BA force that can outshoot that at 2k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It gets worse if I use DKoK


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By worse I mean better for the guard...

Poly Ranger wrote:
2 x basilisk

2 x basilisk

2 x griffon

Why not join one Griffon to each of those Basilisk groups?
Makes for more accurate bombardment.

Quit making it worse! LOL

Poly Ranger wrote:Please show me a BA force that can outshoot that at 2k.

Librarian - combi-melta
Librarian

Assault Squad (5) - meltagun
Assault Squad (5) - meltagun
Assault Squad (5) - meltagun
Assault Squad (5) - meltagun

Sternguard (5) - 5x combi-meltas, drop pod

Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons

ADL - lascannon

That's one example of how BA can do shooting and still have better assault than a guard list.

This puts down over 14 lascannon hits per turn, and that's before you consider the melta weapons.

BA can do shooty just fine.

That's a terrible list. I'm very unconvinced by your counter list. The above IG list will beat that list 8/10 times I'd say.

You also never addressed the significant point differentials in your own comparisons.

They're not significant. Devs need to pay only 14 more points in an 1850 point list to reach parity. What is the guard player going to do with 14 more points that's going to prove a significant advantage?

And the guard would only win that game 8 of 10 times in a fantasy world. If the BA player gets to go first, the guard player can reliably expect for all or nearly all of his vehicles to be destroyed before the vendettas even hit the board. After that, the BA player swats the vendettas out of the sky with ease (if he didn't just outright take one down with interceptor fire), and the assault marines+sternguard+librarians butcher the guard infantry (what remains) in close combat.

A reasonable best case for guard would be blowing up one of the preds turn 1 and the vendettas killing another one or maybe two before the guard army is still virtually tabled.

 Ailaros wrote:
They're not significant. Devs need to pay only 14 more points in an 1850 point list to reach parity. What is the guard player going to do with 14 more points that's going to prove a significant advantage?

And the guard would only win that game 8 of 10 times in a fantasy world. If the BA player gets to go first, the guard player can reliably expect for all or nearly all of his vehicles to be destroyed before the vendettas even hit the board. After that, the BA player swats the vendettas out of the sky with ease (if he didn't just outright take one down with interceptor fire), and the assault marines+sternguard+librarians butcher the guard infantry (what remains) in close combat.

A reasonable best case for guard would be blowing up one of the preds turn 1 and the vendettas killing another one or maybe two before the guard army is still virtually tabled.

Once again, I disagree strongly. But it doesn't matter, because no one would ever field a BA list like that without tailoring like you did, because there are so many hard counters to this list.

Take Leman Russ vanquishers, executioners, Officer of the Fleet and a ADL. You will take the wind out of the sails of that BA list.

Really, the key to taking out Blood Angels is to do as much damage ad you can to the army. Then have guys ready to give them a very bad day if and when they make it to your lines. Because they will make it there.

I went up against a Razorspam Blood Angels list once. It took out most of my army but it couldnt make up for the mauling I gave it in and out of assault range.

What Guard does better than Blood Angels is great firepower on a durable chassis. A Leman Russ Vanquisher has a much easier time of taking out a Land Raider than the other way around.