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My big concern is that if GW does go under are there still going to be people playing the game? I have over 12,000 points of Eldar and I would hate to not be able to play the game anymore.

 Xerics wrote:
My big concern is that if GW does go under are there still going to be people playing the game? I have over 12,000 points of Eldar and I would hate to not be able to play the game anymore.

Nope. Everyone knows that GW inscribes runes into all the hardback covers. When GW goes under, all Kirby needs to do is sacrifice a goat at the alter in his office and all the hardback books will self-immolate.

Seriously, you've still got your models. You can still use GW's rules if you want to, or even find a new set. Plenty of free generic sci-fi rules to adapt 40k to.

Barfolomew wrote:
I remember when Warmachine came out and was introduced at my store.......I think for about 6 months, only two people in the store played Warmachine, with everyone else playing 40K. 3 months later, 8 of the 10 regulars had Warmachine armies,........40K was still played occasionally, but most people played Warmachine and Fantasy basically went completely way. Point being that when it transitions, it will be fast. All it takes is for people to have back to back bad 40K games and consistently good experiences with another game to get people interested.

See this is exactly the opposite of what I see in my area. The only tabletop games I regularly see played around here are 40K, SAGA and Flames of War. I see the occasional Star Wars and Firestorm Armada being played, but that's pretty rare. When I do see a game of Warmahordes being played one of the players is almost always a PP staffer.

There are so many game systems out there that have their own miniatures line it's (IMHO) been hard to find players for them. That's why I spend most of my time now just painting.

I own several other game systems, but never get to play them because there just aren't any players in my area or they just don't go to the same stores I do or not at all. I spent a lot of money on the Ogre Kickstarter, but haven't been able to find anyone to play it yet. Same thing with Sedition Wars and Pike & Shotte. I have a lot of painted miniatures and armies, most of which have never seen the tabletop due to lack of players.

I think GW has the market is has simply due to it being easy to find players. If I'm going to spend money on an army I want to use it.

IF Gw suddenly went belly up and disappeared The popularity of the main products will ensure that both 40k and fantasy will continue to be played and will be expanded upon, by fans.

Hobbyists who have invested in these two systems will still be able to play for years to come.

And I have to say, even though I have moved on from GW, that there will be a gaping black hole should GW go. I posit that a swathe of hobbyists will not pick up another system. and, as above, players invested enough will continue with the game they love.

PP, Corus, Battlefront, mantic, et al, are all fighting for the same pool of hobbyists and those who drop GW as their main hobby/game focus.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
My big concern is that if GW does go under are there still going to be people playing the game? I have over 12,000 points of Eldar and I would hate to not be able to play the game anymore.

Nope. Everyone knows that GW inscribes runes into all the hardback covers. When GW goes under, all Kirby needs to do is sacrifice a goat at the alter in his office and all the hardback books will self-immolate.

Seriously, you've still got your models. You can still use GW's rules if you want to, or even find a new set. Plenty of free generic sci-fi rules to adapt 40k to.

Sure, you'll be able to, in the strictest sense. All currently published material will continue to exist. But the community will die off, precipitously. It will get harder and harder to find pick-up games at the FLGS, and other games will become the new norm. So yeah, you'll be able to play, but it'll get a lot harder.

On topic, a sudden collapse would be terrible for the wider wargaming community. Thankfully, that isn't happening. GW isn't going to fold up this year, or even next year. The year after that? Maybe. Depends on whether they can turn things around. Wayshuba has a pretty compelling case here. The similarities are undeniable.

i am sure GW sold close to 10,000 knights this month so they are moving nearly $1 million of product in a month. I know my local store ran through 50 knights this month. do they have issues sure. will they crash in burn in the next 10 years. No. I have $30k betting that they do ok this year.

If GW went away, I think PP would be the next big dog. They're slowly but constantly growing and now that they're getting a stable of best selling authors on their team more people will become acquainted with them.

 prplehippo wrote:
See this is exactly the opposite of what I see in my area ... There are so many game systems out there that have their own miniatures line it's (IMHO) been hard to find players for them. That's why I spend most of my time now just painting. I own several other game systems, but never get to play them because there just aren't any players in my area or they just don't go to the same stores I do or not at all ... I have a lot of painted miniatures and armies, most of which have never seen the tabletop due to lack of players.

Probably pushing too many games. When my store picked up Warmachine, it was really the only other game that was being played. Flames of War was introduced later, but no one really picked it up because having 3 games was a bit steep for many people. Also, almost no one had more than one 40K army, which meant games got to be repetitive.

I'd recommend getting two small armies (or proxy) for whatever game system you like the best and presenting that as an option.

People also don't like playing games they can't immediately get engaged in. I'd like to try dropzone commander, but no one has it and even if they did, I don't know of any stores in my area that carry it. Chances of me actually purchasing it are about zero, where I can pick up Star Wars X-wing very easily.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Which Codex autoloses and why?

LotD, as if you take a pure army, they don't get permission to deploy normally and must still DS, and don't get exclusion from the auto lose if you've got no models on the table at the end of the turn rule. [/q


I heard the rule for first turn deep strike was in the glossary only. NOW I "HEARD" THIS... so I maybe wrong. But the codec is rife with typos and errors.

I see a lot of people talking about how the demise of GW = the end of 40K.

Why do people think 40K needs GW to survive?

 MWHistorian wrote:
If GW went away, I think PP would be the next big dog. They're slowly but constantly growing and now that they're getting a stable of best selling authors on their team more people will become acquainted with them.

PP are in not a "Big Dog". They are actually pretty small. PP is still smaller than GW was back in the early 90's. PP is also a very poorly managed company.

Yes they are very good at community relations and game creation, but the overall management of the company is horrible, especially in the manufacturing/packing area. They are bleeding money and don't even know enough about the manufacturing process to even know it.
Every person they hired with experience in those areas has quit or been fired. When staff had complaints (and moral was really low) about the problems they were having, management's answer was basically to tell them "Shut up, stop complaining, or else".

I like Warmachine and Hordes, I like their models as well. Much of the management staff I had to work with I wish would get hit by a truck and die.

I guess you missed the part where I said, the next "big dog" as in, they're not the big dog yet but they appear to be growing, not shrinking.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I guess you missed the part where I said, the next "big dog" as in, they're not the big dog yet but they appear to be growing, not shrinking.

Not at all. But after working there for several years and seeing how poorly that company is run (and continues to be run) I'd put money they'd be more likely to go under before they hit anywhere near GW's level of business.

 Xerics wrote:
My big concern is that if GW does go under are there still going to be people playing the game? I have over 12,000 points of Eldar and I would hate to not be able to play the game anymore.

Hell, with 12,000 points you could split your army up into multiple armies, lend them to friends and have yourself an Eldar Civil War.

 prplehippo wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I guess you missed the part where I said, the next "big dog" as in, they're not the big dog yet but they appear to be growing, not shrinking.

Not at all. But after working there for several years and seeing how poorly that company is run (and continues to be run) I'd put money they'd be more likely to go under before they hit anywhere near GW's level of business.

If true that is sad because I like their stuff.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I see a lot of people talking about how the demise of GW = the end of 40K.

Why do people think 40K needs GW to survive?

^This.

Just take a cursory glance at the first 10 pages or so in the Proposed Rules section. You'll see tons of stuff people theorize into injecting into the game, if not straight up creating their own new entire fan codices.

If GW goes under, Warhammer 40k might actually flourish. I think Disney will do a better job with the Star Wars liscence than George Lucas did this past decade, as an example of a beloved IP changing ownership.

Even if no one picked it up, with no one to defend the rights of the IP anymore, it'll be easier and easier for places like Chapterhouse to not produce "compatible with" parts but straight up make their own "official" 40k stuff. The universe is alive and well and might actually progress for the first time in 30 years once GW bellies up in the next decade.

 insaniak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ah yes, that is true. Technical wise, GW models are high quality.

As games pieces? Sure.

As models? Not particularly. Some of the metals were, but their plastics suffer from the choice of a softer grade of polystyrene to that normally used by model companies, to make the models less brittle and this more durable on the table. As a side effect of the softer plastic, though, they lack the crisp definition that is only possible in a harder plastic, and parts have to be chunkier so you lose the superfine detailing available with harder plastic (stuff like aerials and banner poles and spears that have to be ridiculously thick so they don't snap during use). Because they have to factor in ease of assembly, they sacrifice detail and make design choices around fitting the models into a given box rather than around what makes the best model. And their intermittent moulding issues (I've had some absolutely appalling mould misallignments on Marine sprues) add a whole extra layer of fun.


GW has some awesome designs. But the actual execution of those designs is hindered by the intended function as a game piece, rather than a display piece.

Exactly. The recent Imperial Knight is an excellent example. While it is very aesthetically pleasing (it looks awesome), the model itself is an utter failure of model design. The two weapons apparently share too many parts to be able to be swapped, and the model has extremely limited articulation. One need only look at the Dreamforge Leviathan or any number of Japanese Gundam kits to see what can be done with a model's design. Especially for $140, GW (as the self proclaimed market leader) could, and absolutely should, be doing better.

These doom and gloom threads make me sad inside. Like a couple people pointed out, the trickle down from GW going down would likely crush a portion of the table top market.

Though, GW has such a valuable IP, whether it survives or not, Warhammer 40k will, and that is all that matters to me.


side note: Why are so many people keen on Victoria's Minis but rage at GW? I love the look of some of those minis over there, I really do, I'd LOVE to make an IG army using them. It is also $50 for 10. I know they why its $50, I get it. But why on earth are people so keen on them but a $35 pack from GW is like GW is killing your children?

 Saevus wrote:
side note: Why are so many people keen on Victoria's Minis but rage at GW? I love the look of some of those minis over there, I really do, I'd LOVE to make an IG army using them. It is also $50 for 10. I know they why its $50, I get it. But why on earth are people so keen on them but a $35 pack from GW is like GW is killing your children?

The people who complain about GW's prices aren't necessarily the same people who are happy with Vic's prices.

And even if they are, some people are willing to pay more for better sculpts. It's not solely the price that is the issue with GW - it's the price for the specific product.

There's also the fact that VIC doesn't charge different prices depending on where you're from. As a result, for some of us the price difference between 10 Cadians and 10 of Vic's minis is negligible.

 Saevus wrote:
These doom and gloom threads make me sad inside. Like a couple people pointed out, the trickle down from GW going down would likely crush a portion of the table top market.

Though, GW has such a valuable IP, whether it survives or not, Warhammer 40k will, and that is all that matters to me.


side note: Why are so many people keen on Victoria's Minis but rage at GW? I love the look of some of those minis over there, I really do, I'd LOVE to make an IG army using them. It is also $50 for 10. I know they why its $50, I get it. But why on earth are people so keen on them but a $35 pack from GW is like GW is killing your children?

Because they're fairly priced for resin and metal minis.

GW's troops boxes are just about their most reasonably (even fairly) priced kits, yet are still massively more expensive than kits of comparable complexity from the likes of Dreamforge or the Perrys. That is in despite of GW being in a position to benefit massively more from economies of scale than any of their competition.

People consistently prove that price isn't a barrier for this, or any other hobby, it is value at the heart of the issue, and people feel that 10 Vic Guardsmen for $50 is a fair deal with all that is entailed, whether it be aesthetic, variety, quality, interaction with the artist, whatever, but take issue with GW because the quality of their product for the price they demand doesn't offer them the same value.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Saevus wrote:
These doom and gloom threads make me sad inside. Like a couple people pointed out, the trickle down from GW going down would likely crush a portion of the table top market.

Though, GW has such a valuable IP, whether it survives or not, Warhammer 40k will, and that is all that matters to me.


side note: Why are so many people keen on Victoria's Minis but rage at GW? I love the look of some of those minis over there, I really do, I'd LOVE to make an IG army using them. It is also $50 for 10. I know they why its $50, I get it. But why on earth are people so keen on them but a $35 pack from GW is like GW is killing your children?

Because they're fairly priced for resin and metal minis.

GW's troops boxes are just about their most reasonably (even fairly) priced kits, yet are still massively more expensive than kits of comparable complexity from the likes of Dreamforge or the Perrys. That is in despite of GW being in a position to benefit massively more from economies of scale than any of their competition.

People consistently prove that price isn't a barrier for this, or any other hobby, it is value at the heart of the issue, and people feel that 10 Vic Guardsmen for $50 is a fair deal with all that is entailed, whether it be aesthetic, variety, quality, interaction with the artist, whatever, but take issue with GW because the quality of their product for the price they demand doesn't offer them the same value.

Bingo.

This is why I never understood GW's legal position with Chapterhouse Studios. You claim that X product is a copy of your artwork, but customers pay more for it because it looks different. It should be common sense. The fact that the product has different aesthetics is what makes it attractive to consumers. The proof is in the pudding, and one should not need to innumerate similarities or differences to understand that if a piece of artwork sells because it looks different from another piece of artwork, you have an original expression, copyrightable in its own right.

Heck if someone else picks up 40k after games workshop has crashed and burned I hope they crash and burn faster. We might see some better rule writing and cheaper prices. The golden age of tabletop wargaming will return once more.

 Xerics wrote:
The golden age of tabletop wargaming will return once more.

Implying we aren't living in it right now?

No we aren't. A few races are overpowered and the current company that owns 40k is doing it on purpose to fatten their wallets.

 Xerics wrote:
No we aren't. A few races are overpowered and the current company that owns 40k is doing it on purpose to fatten their wallets.

Because the only miniatures game is 40k and the only miniature wargaming company is GW.

 Xerics wrote:
No we aren't. A few races are overpowered and the current company that owns 40k is doing it on purpose to fatten their wallets.

Some of us see this as a golden age for miniatures that aren't games workshop.

Heck, I love some of GW's kits so I'll call it a miniatures golden age, but 40k is
not a game I'm currently playing so that stuff gets bought after I feed my current
demons.

It may not be the golden age of GW but it could be argued its a golden age for tabletop gaming.

I havent been into Wargaming for long enough to judge what is and isnt a golden age but I could see an argument being made for it atm.

 Xerics wrote:
No we aren't. A few races are overpowered and the current company that owns 40k is doing it on purpose to fatten their wallets.

Ah, I see.

You're still in the mindset that GW is the only wargaming company out there.

Shame.

I have 12,000 points of Eldar. I have enough invested in this game that I don't want to get into another miniature game. As far as I am concerned there is only 40k because of the amount of money invested in the pieces and the time I have spent painting them (even if they aren't all quite finished yet).

 Xerics wrote:
I have 12,000 points of Eldar. I have enough invested in this game that I don't want to get into another miniature game. As far as I am concerned there is only 40k because of the amount of money invested in the pieces and the time I have spent painting them (even if they aren't all quite finished yet).

I don't know if I could underscore how much is out there you're missing out on.

As long as you understand that GW is not the only thing out there, and indeed the miniature wargaming market has arguably never been healthier.