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 Las wrote:
I agree with the notion that it will be a huge blow to the community if GW goes under especially considering the example of TSR. I mean, it's basically impossible to play D&D these days.

I wish I had one of those "I see what you did there" meme pictures handy....

 Las wrote:
I agree with the notion that it will be a huge blow to the community if GW goes under especially considering the example of TSR. I mean, it's basically impossible to play D&D these days.

I know you were being facetious, but in all seriousness you'll notice a lot of "the hobby would die" posts are coming from people located in the UK. Over here, to many of the uninitiated, GW IS wargaming. There is literally nothing else (that they are aware of). If GW were to disappear from the high streets in the UK tomorrow it would create a massive power vacuum as a result. There would be nobody to fill the void initially. Sure, 40k etc. would live on, but without GW to provide a high street presence, they would die a slow death in gaming clubs and people's homes as little to no new gamers appear to play these dead games.

I can count on my hands the number of high profile FLGSs over here, they are simply not as prominent, add in the phenomenon of what I refer to as "GW towns", where in spite of the location having a thriving independent gaming club, GW still rules the roost in a place where, in theory, anything should go. Simply due to GW being some people's first (or only) exposure to wargaming.

 Las wrote:
I agree with the notion that it will be a huge blow to the community if GW goes under especially considering the example of TSR. I mean, it's basically impossible to play D&D these days.

You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR. If it wasn't for WotC, or more properly, Peter Adkinson's love of D&D, it would have been history as the company was in such bad shape it wasn't a good buy - even at pennies on the dollar. However, WotC had the cash as was able to pick up and save the brand because of one fact - Peter Adkinson loved D&D.

If GW does collapse - who has the cash in the industry to pick them up? People forget that GW has a tremendous amount of assets as a manufacturer and their is no one close to their size. So, does 40k have a Peter Adkinson out there, willing to make a bad buy in order to save a brand they love???

And, if you think it can't happen, you may want to read the story of WordPerfect Corporation and Wang Corporation to see how a small $500 million company (WordPerfect) caused a $51 billion dollar company (Wang) to disappear from existence in less than a year.

Does anybody have an idea as to how much it would cost to buy GW outright? Just curious.

I can attest to GW basically being the only game in town in this country. My town only has a Toymaster that stocks the minimum amount of GW products that they can, about 25% of a small room upstairs which is otherwise PACKED with model trains and planes.

I want to get into X Wing at the moment, but I know I'd have to buy the starter and extras (who's going to want to use the solo x wing?) just to get one or two games out of my group of four or five 40K players. I tried to get them into Warmachine, but it has no traction with them, Paper RPG's? Gay. Magic? Gay. It's hard work.

I like to imagine a world where GW dies, and we have to play other games until a white knight or Noel Edmonds and his secret gang of investors drive to Nottingham in their Qpods and save 40K, putting it back to 5th Edition and starting again on 6th.

31.86m shares in circulation x 505p per share =16,089,300,000 pence = 160,893,000 pounds

(100 pence per pound, right?)

Assuming that the price didn't start to rise when someone bought all those share and that every shareholder would be willing to sell.

BairdEC wrote:
31.86m shares in circulation x 505p per share =16,089,300,000 pence = 160,893,000 pounds

(100 pence per pound, right?)

Assuming that the price didn't start to rise when someone bought all those share and that every shareholder would be willing to sell.

While that is a great start, that isn't necessarily the truth.

The brand value and future income streams have to be factored in and a little bit of the black arts and then face left and spin on your right heal and someone will have an idea of what they want to pay per share for the company. The manaement often then have a price they think they are worth (which is often no basis in the real world) and then somewhere only the lines a price is agreed upon and the shareholders (i.e owners) vote on whether or not to sell. Once the price is agreed upon the shares move up to that value because the selling price per share is obvious the value of the share.

Shares moving up during negotiations have no impact on the final price, unless the feeling is the sale offer has been undervalued. If shares are currently $1.50 and there is a negotiation aiming for between $1.75 and $2 the shareprice will obviously start drifting to the $1.75 mark. But if it does you can see if wont affect the price paid.

Additionally you only need a controlling stake, not an outright purchase (unless you wish to de-list the company from the exchange) which means that, within your criteria of a non-reactive share price, you'd only need ~80m.

As FHoH says though, it isn't that straightforward, and once you hit a 27% stake, you're obliged to try and purchase the rest of the company under UK financial regs, so that muddies things still further.

 Wayshuba wrote:
If GW does collapse - who has the cash in the industry to pick them up? People forget that GW has a tremendous amount of assets as a manufacturer and their is no one close to their size. .

If GW actually went bust, the most likely scenario would be that their IP would be bought by someone else, and their manufacturing assets sold off separately.

True. Anyone buying up the Games Workshop IP wouldn't bother with the higher cost of production in the UK, and instead move all the model making to China. They probably wouldn't even keep the molds, instead they would let the Chinese factory rework and recut the CAD files to make new (and probably better) molds.

The question is let's say you won the lottery tommorow, would you buy GW. It'd belike 400 million US dollars I believe

Hell no!

I'd spend it on fast cars, hot women and booze, and waste the rest!

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
True. Anyone buying up the Games Workshop IP wouldn't bother with the higher cost of production in the UK, and instead move all the model making to China. They probably wouldn't even keep the molds, instead they would let the Chinese factory rework and recut the CAD files to make new (and probably better) molds.

I doubt that this would be the case. The only companies that I know of who have used Chinese manufacturers (Wargames Factory and Mantic) took a severe hit on quality. GW has the equipment and the staff already set up and as manufacturing is supposedly starting to flow back from China anyway I suspect that whoever buys GW will keep the current arrangements basically unchanged. Production doesn't really cost GW all that much once the moulds have been made, its their retail arm that costs a fortune.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I have 12,000 points of Eldar. I have enough invested in this game that I don't want to get into another miniature game. As far as I am concerned there is only 40k because of the amount of money invested in the pieces and the time I have spent painting them (even if they aren't all quite finished yet).

I don't know if I could underscore how much is out there you're missing out on.

As long as you understand that GW is not the only thing out there, and indeed the miniature wargaming market has arguably never been healthier.

I agree, think we are very much in a golden era of wargaming at the moment. In fact, probably too much of a golden era - it's frustrating seeing so many great games and miniatures, and knowing that I won't have time to try them all!

Thanks to the internet, it's allowed small games to survive like never before. It's so easy to find other gaming groups, travel for a few hours to play in a tournament somewhere, join discussion groups and get answers to rule questions, and order miniatures from overseas for you and friends to try. It's fething brilliant - I think especially for youngsters coming into wargaming, who haven't known it any differently, it's impossible to overstate how much modern communications have helped the wargaming industry and community.

On your other point, it very much depends on what you want from wargaming. I know some people who have played the same MMO-RPG for 6-7 years, are completely content with playing no other games at all. But, many others want to try different things. I would argue that you can obtain a better, more rich experience from the world of wargaming by spreading yourself out a bit - even if you don't end up going mental and collecting for half a dozen game systems at the same time! Certainly, I think for most people coming from the historical wargaming sector, the idea of staying exclusively within a single miniature collection and games system would be absolutely incomprehensible.

 Palindrome wrote:
I doubt that this would be the case. The only companies that I know of who have used Chinese manufacturers (Wargames Factory and Mantic) took a severe hit on quality

The issues with Wargames Factory and Mantic are more to do with their sculpting than their casting.

Mongoose's Starship Troopers line was all produced in China, and was mostly superb.

Forgeworld for a time produced in China, and casts for that period don't seem to have been any worse than what they were doing in-house.

And the company that does the moulding and casting for Wargames Factory also does Dreamforge, and Catalyst Labs, amongst others. No issues with quality there.

Starship Troopers... That went away too soon, luckily when something new that I like comes around I wait for the model range to expand before I buy it, this plan saved me from purchasing a dead game.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
True. Anyone buying up the Games Workshop IP wouldn't bother with the higher cost of production in the UK, and instead move all the model making to China. They probably wouldn't even keep the molds, instead they would let the Chinese factory rework and recut the CAD files to make new (and probably better) molds.

Lots of UK companies who outsourced work to China are now repatriating the work to Europe, because China is having its own labour problems. You can get very high quality work there, but only with close supervision.

Of course, you might be right in that a private equity GW-buyer would probably move production straight to China. Whether you'd get better quality is another matter.

We really need to survey the damage to gw to get an idea. We can run our mouths all day about f gw this and evil corp that. But if you are buying, playing, or both you are assisting them. Giving them money or enabling those who do just feeds the gw machine. In all truth they serve their purpose as long as you are having fun playing.
. I find truth in what most of you are saying. On both sides. If you want to send a message then organize a boycott of purchases from gw. No books, no figs, no downloads. Make your voices loud in the only language they understand. Convince those who disagree with you to hold purchases for a few months. Convince your local tournament organizer to not hold tourneys for a few months. Dont play it at your flgs. Play other games. Email them that you are upset and the reasons why. And most importantly coordinate. Start it at or near the beginning of the quarter. A bad quarter wont kill them. It might make them listen. If it doesnt then they dont deserve your business and you should find another game.

Who should lead such a thing and who would follow?

I've read what you have to say. What do you expect me to do? Join the fanatical group of privateer press players? I've done that already. I don't like anything privateer press. I enjoy the fluff of GW and I enjoy playing Warhammer and 40K. I still buy their products. My friends and I have a weekly game that we play. More often than not we are playing a GW brand games. What do you want us to do? Throw our stuff into the trash to support your anger? You realize that you are complaining about toy soldiers and make believe battlefields. If you don't like it, just do what I have done with my Privateer Press minis. Sell them to those who want to use them for make believe battles.

Unless you guys wanna do a dakka kickstarter to buy gw.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at the disposable income of players it really doesnt seem so ridiculous.

WhiskySierra wrote:
I've read what you have to say. What do you expect me to do? Join the fanatical group of privateer press players? I've done that already. I don't like anything privateer press. I enjoy the fluff of GW and I enjoy playing Warhammer and 40K. I still buy their products. My friends and I have a weekly game that we play. More often than not we are playing a GW brand games. What do you want us to do? Throw our stuff into the trash to support your anger? You realize that you are complaining about toy soldiers and make believe battlefields. If you don't like it, just do what I have done with my Privateer Press minis. Sell them to those who want to use them for make believe battles.

What an odd and weird reply that doesn't really address anything anyone has said. No one has suggested everyone should drop 40k for PP games. No one has suggested you throw your stuff away. You have written a post containing almost entirely straw men.

Carlos there are a lot of us who are dealing with bs at home, work, and romantic parts of life. The only break some of us get from that is gaming. There is so much truth behind the negative things said about gw that even if we are all wrong about all these negative things, its still believable and it threatens us. It threatens our social circles with the possibility of change and our closets with the potential to be loaded with thousands or tens of thousands of dollars worth of worthless.

Anybody who has been through the changes before knows that when the games change you lose a few friends sometimes. It sucks all the way around for everyone.

When 3rd ed came out some people hung on, some quit and played magic, some went to various rpgs. It fragments like that. When you have fun playing something regularly with people you like, you cant help put take it personally when it is threatened. Sometimes people direct the anger at the messenger.

 Wayshuba wrote:

 Las wrote:
I agree with the notion that it will be a huge blow to the community if GW goes under especially considering the example of TSR. I mean, it's basically impossible to play D&D these days.

You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR. If it wasn't for WotC, or more properly, Peter Adkinson's love of D&D, it would have been history as the company was in such bad shape it wasn't a good buy - even at pennies on the dollar. However, WotC had the cash as was able to pick up and save the brand because of one fact - Peter Adkinson loved D&D.

Right, I had forgotten how, right when TSR went under, all the print on my D&D, AD&D, and AD&D 2nd Edition books fell off the pages into a jumbled pile on the floor. Good thing WotC came along and fixed that.

Forgive the typos, punctuation, and spelling. I am on a tablet with a very head strong auto complete.

That makes sense Quientin never looked at it like that. My social circle has never really been based on gaming so its never threaten to effect me that way. Thanks for an intresting perspective.

 azreal13 wrote:
Hell no!

I'd spend it on fast cars, hot women and booze, and waste the rest!

You'd have any left after that?

 Quientin wrote:
We really need to survey the damage to gw to get an idea. We can run our mouths all day about f gw this and evil corp that. But if you are buying, playing, or both you are assisting them. Giving them money or enabling those who do just feeds the gw machine. In all truth they serve their purpose as long as you are having fun playing.
. I find truth in what most of you are saying. On both sides. If you want to send a message then organize a boycott of purchases from gw. No books, no figs, no downloads. Make your voices loud in the only language they understand. Convince those who disagree with you to hold purchases for a few months. Convince your local tournament organizer to not hold tourneys for a few months. Dont play it at your flgs. Play other games. Email them that you are upset and the reasons why. And most importantly coordinate. Start it at or near the beginning of the quarter. A bad quarter wont kill them. It might make them listen. If it doesnt then they dont deserve your business and you should find another game.

Who should lead such a thing and who would follow?

There is a quiet section of people who have already done much of this. I haven't bought any GW models since early 2011 and I haven't bought any of the 6th edition codexes.

I didn't do this as a specific protest, I have just dropped out of buying GW thanks to the prices. I don't think I am the only one, OTOH the Knight Titans are flying off the shelves so other people are spending plenty.

The key point for GW is how big the overall result is when you factor in the people who buying Knight Titans and Escalation against the people who have stopped buying GW stuff.

 Wayshuba wrote:
You're correct. It is almost impossible to play D&D as written by TSR.

Actually it's probably never been easier. Also thanks to Adkinson and Dancey, the OGL has allowed the legal publication of retro-clones. And the internet has made it easier than ever to get in contact with people who are looking to play older versions of the game. The people who appreciate these older games often self identify as the OSR (which can me Old School Revival or Renaissance) and if my little city of 70,000 people has an OSR group on facebook, I imagine many larger centres do as well.

I'm currently running a game using an RPG published in 1980 and have 5 players and a waiting list of another 4. All found through the internet and they all ended up being local to me.

And that's not even counting the endless potential to find players over skype, google hangouts or roll20.

Right now you can get in print rulebooks for every edition of D&D ever played. It might just be called something else. 1974 D&D is called Swords & Wizardry. AD&D1e is called OSRIC. Moldvay D&D is called Labyrinth Lord and Mentzer BECMI D&D is called Labyrinth Lord.

And new material, new adventures, new magazine content, etc., is being produced for all these games and more right now.

The community took it over and as a result, it become more accessible than ever.

If it wasn't for WotC, or more properly, Peter Adkinson's love of D&D, it would have been history as the company was in such bad shape it wasn't a good buy - even at pennies on the dollar. However, WotC had the cash as was able to pick up and save the brand because of one fact - Peter Adkinson loved D&D.

Absolutely.

It would take organization and a lot of commitment kilkrazy. I know very few would participate. More the point that most of the haters dont hate it that much. Everyone might be split on what needs to be done and even if something needs to be done. Even if that is the case I doubt even 1 in 100 unsatisfied players would do anything in protest other than simply quit spending and/or playing. No one has the stomach for extreme measures over a game.

As usual though you are insightful, on point, and right. (No sarcasm)

 frozenwastes wrote:
Actually it's probably never been easier. Also thanks to Adkinson and Dancey, the OGL has allowed the legal publication of retro-clones. And the internet has made it easier than ever to get in contact with people who are looking to play older versions of the game. The people who appreciate these older games often self identify as the OSR (which can me Old School Revival or Renaissance) and if my little city of 70,000 people has an OSR group on facebook, I imagine many larger centres do as well.

There are currently at least two different gaming groups that meet at the FLGS who are playing 1980's era AD&D. I poke my head in and watch from time to time, because that's what I cut my teeth on as far as RPG's are concerned. You can find every single one of the original modules for free download online in PDF form. In the last couple of months, I saw them running Keep on the Borderlands and The Hidden Shrine of Tomoachan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quientin wrote:
It would take organization and a lot of commitment kilkrazy. I know very few would participate. More the point that most of the haters dont hate it that much. Everyone might be split on what needs to be done and even if something needs to be done. Even if that is the case I doubt even 1 in 100 unsatisfied players would do anything in protest other than simply quit spending and/or playing. No one has the stomach for extreme measures over a game.

As usual though you are insightful, on point, and right. (No sarcasm)

Actually, it doesn't take any organization at all.

I didn't stop playing 40K because other people lobbied me into doing it. I just got to a point sometime during 5th edition where I didn't think it was fun anymore, and 6th edition didn't change that opinion. The rising prices didn't help much, either.

I'm willing to bet that the reason GW"s sales numbers aren't dropping because of any sort of organization; it's just a natural push-back to the cost of the product in comparison to the perceived value of the product.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Quientin wrote:
We really need to survey the damage to gw to get an idea. We can run our mouths all day about f gw this and evil corp that. But if you are buying, playing, or both you are assisting them. Giving them money or enabling those who do just feeds the gw machine. In all truth they serve their purpose as long as you are having fun playing.
. I find truth in what most of you are saying. On both sides. If you want to send a message then organize a boycott of purchases from gw. No books, no figs, no downloads. Make your voices loud in the only language they understand. Convince those who disagree with you to hold purchases for a few months. Convince your local tournament organizer to not hold tourneys for a few months. Dont play it at your flgs. Play other games. Email them that you are upset and the reasons why. And most importantly coordinate. Start it at or near the beginning of the quarter. A bad quarter wont kill them. It might make them listen. If it doesnt then they dont deserve your business and you should find another game.

Who should lead such a thing and who would follow?

There is a quiet section of people who have already done much of this. I haven't bought any GW models since early 2011 and I haven't bought any of the 6th edition codexes.

I didn't do this as a specific protest, I have just dropped out of buying GW thanks to the prices. I don't think I am the only one, OTOH the Knight Titans are flying off the shelves so other people are spending plenty.

The key point for GW is how big the overall result is when you factor in the people who buying Knight Titans and Escalation against the people who have stopped buying GW stuff.

I changed to a conscious choice to stop in 2012 and only bought a blister or two and two boxes of daemons, paints as needed and GS. I stopped buying all BL books. In 2013 I moved to deciding to do zero purchases from GW. Just bought my first roll of 36inch Kneadatite and moved by paints to a mix of non-GW. I own one 8th edition army book and zero 6 editions also because frankly I find both rule sets annoying and the changes made to them not done to benefit the playability of the game. Ihave gone from owning mutliple armies for both 40k and WFB and every army book/ codex to having a handful of models (sold everything) and an 8th ed rule book I was given because I refused to buy such a stupid waste of money for a book that is a pain in the ass to use whilst playing because of its ridiculous size.

On the flip side, I have about 5k of Romans in the last 12months, $400 of Sarissa buildings and far too many Tamiya models.

I will admit I was tempted by the Knight but not at that price. That is just silly pricing.