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They're not. At the very least, the legality of them is in strongly in dispute and they're almost certainly illegal, though we don't have any court cases yet. If you mill out your own receiver or bend your own flat, it's legal, but if you have a bunch of people show up with their unfinished stuff and you direct them exactly how to do it and provide the equipment for them to do so, especially a pre-programmed CNC machine, then you are manufacturing firearms and need the licensing to do so.
I'm not going to defend this line of thinking, simply presenting it as what the ATF's is.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/03/19 12:20:41
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
They're not. At the very least, the legality of them is in strongly in dispute and they're almost certainly illegal, though we don't have any court cases yet. If you mill out your own receiver or bend your own flat, it's legal, but if you have a bunch of people show up with their unfinished stuff and you direct them exactly how to do it and provide the equipment for them to do so, especially a pre-programmed CNC machine, then you are manufacturing firearms and need the licensing to do so.
I'm not going to defend this line of thinking, simply presenting it as what the ATF's is.
Ouze -- Do we know if that's specifically for retailers, or does it pertain to private citizens as well?
Like, could I use my CNC machine to host a build party?
From the sounds of it if you use your equipment to finish off stuff for others, or show people how to do it while using your equipment (including have your cnc machine set up and others use it) then you are a gun manufacturerand so it would be illegal.
They're not. At the very least, the legality of them is in strongly in dispute and they're almost certainly illegal, though we don't have any court cases yet. If you mill out your own receiver or bend your own flat, it's legal, but if you have a bunch of people show up with their unfinished stuff and you direct them exactly how to do it and provide the equipment for them to do so, especially a pre-programmed CNC machine, then you are manufacturing firearms and need the licensing to do so.
I'm not going to defend this line of thinking, simply presenting it as what the ATF's is.
Ouze -- Do we know if that's specifically for retailers, or does it pertain to private citizens as well?
Like, could I use my CNC machine to host a build party?
That's the important distinction here I think, most build parties are hosted by private individuals. As a private individual if I rent a CNC or milling machine to finish my 80% receiver is the guy I rented or borrowed it from manufacturing a firearm?
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
It seems like part of the problem was that the other companies in question also finished the rest of the gun there. So thy sold you the 80% receiver, held your hand while you pushed the right button to finish it, then took it from you and build everything else. That may be contributing to the grey area.
Ahtman wrote: Sounds like something one would need to investigate, or get a warrant to probe further.
Which the customer list is unlikely to have assisted with. The ATF would have been better served demanding the correspondence between Aries and the party already under investigation. That would have shown whether or not Aries had prior knowledge of the unlawful activities being carried out. All the customer list does is confirm what was already known, that Aries sold the 80% receivers to a third party who then went on to use them for an illicit purpose.
Ahtman wrote: It is also just as likely they would lie about not doing it or lie about stopping it. Sounds like something one would need to investigate, or get a warrant to probe further.
Good thing that we have laws about impeding investigations, not complying with court orders, and destroying or tampering with potential evidence.
What you're suggesting is close to saying that actual investigative work should not be carried out by government agencies in case a suspect lies, we should just raid their property and seize records. Again there was no evidence to suggest that Aries had prior knowledge or had done anything unlawful. Without that is is hard to establish reasonable cause for a warrant, mere suspicion is not enough.
Ahtman wrote: Why not wait for all the facts of the case to come out? Why jump to conclusions either way?
So we cannot comment on the basis of the facts as reported? If that is the case then perhaps you should ask the Moderators and Admins to close the many discussion threads that we have open here. After all, I wouldn't want you to have to read any discussion without all the facts being completely presented.
In any event you still did not trouble yourself to answer the question as to why the ATF seized legal items that Aries was permitted to sell.
Ahtman wrote: Which of course means feth all since we don't have enough information to go on at this point.
Spoiler:
But evidently we have enough information to make pithy comments with images which adds so much to the discussion. Had I started a rant about this matter based solely on the ATF's involvement then you may have a point, because that would be jumping to conclusions. Thankfully that is not the case, the facts as reported were taken into consideration
Why did the ATF kick in the door and break the vault?
Why did they show up with automatic weapons?
Did they think there was going to be a mass gun battle...AT A MACHINE SHOP???
Or was it all intimidation?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: Why did they show up with automatic weapons?
Which specific automatic weapons did they use?
There were women and children inside our retail establishment when the (ATF) agents came in with guns drawn,” Karras told the station. "They came into our firearms manufacturing facility saying, ‘Arms up!’ like they were invading Iraq.”
Frazzled wrote: Why did they show up with automatic weapons?
Why does it matter how the police arm themselves?
Because shooting people for no reason is frowned upon in this establishment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 15:00:37
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
It's a sealed warrant so I think it's a little too early to play the jackbooted thug card, I think. Not that's in any way a defense of the ATF.
In the previous raid that this was connected to, the guy they arrested was a felon who had previously been deported who is, by dint of the location they apprehended him in, going to be surrounded by many high capacity, powerful firearms. Maybe this is the same situation. I don't know, and neither do you. You really think "going in guns drawn" was out of line?
The use of force for Gibson Guitars was unreasonable, here... less so, I think. But it's TBD.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/19 15:06:18
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Considering they weren't going after a person, but trying to get customer files, it was a public establishment, and there were people there, you betcha I do.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I don't think it's imprudent for the police, when lawfully raiding a place that is literally chock full of shooting irons, to take reasonable means to defend themselves if things go sideways. I think context matters. This does not extend to previous ATF adventures with armored personnel carriers so lets not build a stawman here, I beg.
The last unsubstantiated rumors I read were that the issue the ATF has is with their process. They make polymer lowers, and it looks like they maybe build a 100% lower and then plug it with a different polymer to make it into an 80%, or possibly vice versa.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 15:15:49
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Ouze wrote: It's a sealed warrant so I think it's a little too early to play the jackbooted thug card, I think. Not that's in any way a defense of the ATF.
In the previous raid that this was connected to, the guy they arrested was a felon who had previously been deported who is, by dint of the location they apprehended him in, going to be surrounded by many high capacity, powerful firearms. Maybe this is the same situation. I don't know, and neither do you. You really think "going in guns drawn" was out of line?
The use of force for Gibson Guitars was unreasonable, here... less so, I think. But it's TBD.
Here is a link to the website of Ares; http://aresarmor.com/ As you may note they do not sell "high capacity, powerful firearms". They sell parts and accessories. The only items which they sell that may be considered a weapon (bar the 80% receivers being used as a club) are knives.
The previous raid was on a party not affiliated with Ares, beyond Ares selling them parts. There has been nothing from the ATF to suggest that Ares had done anything unlawful. No Ares staff were arrested, detained, nor questioned. The ATF's sole purpose for the raid was to obtain a customer list and seize lawful firearm parts. Ares had filed papers to have their day in court over the customer list. The ATF decided to go to a secret court where Ares would not get to argue their point
Ouze wrote: I don't think it's imprudent for the police, when lawfully raiding a place that is literally chock full of shooting irons, to take reasonable means to defend themselves if things go sideways. I think context matters. This does not extend to previous ATF adventures with armored personnel carriers so lets not build a stawman here, I beg.
The last unsubstantiated rumors I read were that the issue the ATF has is with their process. They make polymer lowers, and it looks like they maybe a 100% lower and then plug it with a different polymer to make it into an 80%, or possibly vice versa.
Its imprudent to go into a place of business with guns drawn in that manner yes indeedy. If you act like an occupying army people view you as an occupying army.
*There was no arrest warrant being served.
*There was no evidence of the owner of the store being a nbut who was going to shoot at them. Indeed he had successfully employed the available legal avenues.
*It was a public location. There were other people in the store, needlessly putting them in harm's away for nothing.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Dreadclaw69 wrote: As you may note they do not sell "high capacity, powerful firearms". They sell parts and accessories. The only items which they sell that may be considered a weapon (bar the 80% receivers being used as a club) are knives.
And as you may note, I didn't say that they did: re-read my post. I said that "In the previous raid that this was connected to".
Ex-parte is bs, no argument there.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Ouze wrote: I don't think it's imprudent for the police, when lawfully raiding a place that is literally chock full of shooting irons, to take reasonable means to defend themselves if things go sideways. I think context matters. This does not extend to previous ATF adventures with armored personnel carriers so lets not build a stawman here, I beg.
By shooting irons I hope you mean lumps of metal that get turned into receivers, which a customer can then use to finish their firearm. Because Ares do not appear to sell fully functioning firearms
Ouze wrote: The last unsubstantiated rumors I read were that the issue the ATF has is with their process. They make polymer lowers, and it looks like they maybe build a 100% lower and then plug it with a different polymer to make it into an 80%, or possibly vice versa.
This is the same ATF that seized a shipment of plastic BB guns claiming that they could be easily converted into working firearms.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: As you may note they do not sell "high capacity, powerful firearms". They sell parts and accessories. The only items which they sell that may be considered a weapon (bar the 80% receivers being used as a club) are knives.
And as you may note, I didn't say that they did: re-read my post. I said that "In the previous raid that this was connected to".
Ex-parte is bs, no argument there.
You attempted to compare a place that sells firearm accessories legally with a felon, and illegal alien, manufacturing firearms unlawfully. You said "who is, by dint of the location they apprehended him in, going to be surrounded by many high capacity, powerful firearms. Maybe this is the same situation..". You then went on to say "I don't think it's imprudent for the police, when lawfully raiding a place that is literally chock full of shooting irons, to take reasonable means to defend themselves if things go sideways."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/19 15:26:13
That is amazing, it is almost as if you ignored the rest of my post that countered your previous statements that Ares sold firearms and so the ATF were only exercising due dilligence
Anyway, from your article;
While ATF sources and documents cannot point to one incident where an airsoft receiver was used in a crime, documents received from KING 5’s public records requests do list a half-dozen cases in which criminals paid top dollar for untraceable firearm receivers.
At Wade’s Gunshop, we asked the gunsmith to try to fire live rounds from our airsoft. Gaughran said he believes the average person couldn’t do it.
"What we were trying to do is find out how easy it would be for a kid with a drill or a criminal with some common tools and that wasn't the case,” said Gaughran, explaining that his gunsmith could not make the weapon fire with a minimal amount of tinkering.
So a gunsmith didn't think that a criminal would be able to readily convert the receiver. Strange though that the ATF claimed that they could, but unlike other instances listed in their published internal memo were unable to give a time as to how long it would take
It's what inside that Gaughran found most disturbing.
"This actually looks like an auto sear out of a machine gun," he said. He found internal parts that could allow someone to make a fully functioning lower receiver, the only part of the gun that requires a background check to buy.
"In all firearms, the receiver is the registered or controlled part," said Gaughran. “We could set in the trigger parts with very little alteration and you would get a weapon that would fire."
In its labs, ATF said it did fire rounds from several converted airsoft guns including one of the Tacoma guns.
“If the ATF was able to make this fire, I wouldn't dispute that," said Gaughran.
Saying that "a child can't readily do it" does not equal "it can't be done". In fact, he said he thinks it could be done.
At the very least it's a matter of some dispute, not an open and shut "lol the ATF seizes BB guns because they are the stoopids" this was presented as.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 15:49:00
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
You have to be either willfully ignorant or a complete idiot to think that a place that sells gun parts and gun accessories that is open to the general public isn't going to be filled with people that have a very real potential to be armed and that any law enforcement agency serving a warrant shouldn't be prepared in case one of those armed people decided to cause problems.
It's what inside that Gaughran found most disturbing.
"This actually looks like an auto sear out of a machine gun," he said. He found internal parts that could allow someone to make a fully functioning lower receiver, the only part of the gun that requires a background check to buy.
"In all firearms, the receiver is the registered or controlled part," said Gaughran. “We could set in the trigger parts with very little alteration and you would get a weapon that would fire."
In its labs, ATF said it did fire rounds from several converted airsoft guns including one of the Tacoma guns.
“If the ATF was able to make this fire, I wouldn't dispute that," said Gaughran.
Come on about what now? I didn't claim that the lower receivers could not be converted. The legislation states that they must be able to be readily convertible. A gunsmith for the article that you linked to claimed that the skills involved were outside the realm of the ordinary citizen, or indeed criminal. Even the gunsmith himself said that he "could not make the weapon fire with a minimal amount of tinkering.". If a qualified gunsmith cannot do it easily then it may mean that the receiver was not in fact readily convertible
Breaking News: Between the time I began composing today’s Gun Rights Examiner column and finishing it, Mike Vanderboegh reported ATF has rescinded their ruling declaring selected Airsoft-type guns as firearms. What in the world is going on, and how is the bureau so out of control they can issue top level directives under the signature of their acting head guy, and then pull it back with no detailed explanation?
Per Vanderboegh:
"The ATF Pressroom admitted to me by phone this morning that ATF Ruling 2010-4…has been rescinded!
I’ve decided to go ahead and present what I wrote before this news broke as an object lesson in the Bureau’s unchecked machinations—and the impact they can have on the lives, property and liberty of Americans who are simply enjoying their freedom and minding their own business."
Here’s what I wrote earlier this morning:
"A ruling from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives classifying certain replica M-16 airgun lower receivers as “firearms” was quietly introduced on November 5. Even more quietly, it was—if not withdrawn—at least removed from public Internet access."
Why?
The ruling first came to my attention via this post on Mike Vanderboegh’s Sipsey Street Irregulars blog, prompting an entry at my War on Guns journal, and I have since found original commentary at John Richardson’s No Lawyers-Only Guns and Money.
Here’s one of the questions I asked at WoG:
"Why can't the original page be found? What's with a cached version only? Perhaps it's just an innocuous glitch, but where BATFU is concerned, I make no assumptions.
Indeed. ATF Rule 2010-4 is not even listed on their online ATF Rulings index. You can still access it at the cached link, and to preserve it, I’ve also included snapshots in the sidebar slideshow, and am pasting the text at the bottom of this column to facilitate wider analysis."
Here are some other questions that come to mind:
Did someone show their hand too soon? Online or not, is this ruling in effect?
What happened to the initial claims "justifying" seizure of airguns by SA Kelven Crenshaw? He’s the guy who tried to insert a magazine backwards while on camera, and offered this professional judgment:
Special Agent Kelvin Crenshaw said the toys can be easily retro-fitted into dangerous weapons.
"With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun," Crenshaw said.
"In its present state, our firearms technology branch classified this as a machine gun," said Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms special agent Kelvin Crenshaw.
I ask because, according to the text of the rule, after futzing around with the lower receivers and custom drilling and removing and adding parts and assemblies, neither sample resulted in automatic fire.
And there are some additional questions I asked in a follow-up column, including:
If, in fact, these toy guns pose a legal and real danger, is everyone in possession of such a lower receiver now in possession of an illegal firearm?
Will there be a recall? Will BATFE issue a circular to manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers...and local law enforcement?
Importantly, will anyone who has one now be in danger of being classified a felon if it can be proven they know about this, making their possession or transfer of their airgun "willful," and thus subject to criminal prosecution?
Do we now have a new crop of criminals? Hundreds or thousands of them? How could that not be the case?
Plenty more questions come to mind, for instance:
This was only a test of two samples based on specific variants? Does that apply to all brands? If the Firearms Technology Branch goes about milling and drilling and adding and subtracting, what other models will they be able to add to their now-you-see-it-now you-don’t list?
Think about all the ways a person could find themselves in trouble over this:
Are importers and airgun dealers now vulnerable to being charged with dealing in firearms without a license? How are they to know, particularly folks who don’t have a brick and mortar business or who work the swapmeet circuit?
Does your teenager have one of the newly-designated “firearms” and is now in illegtal possession? Is it “safely stored”? Is it being legally transported in the car, just like a real gun? Are you in a ‘gun free zone”? Note your rules may vary based on where you live.
What was Yul Brynner’s line in “The King and I”?
Et cetera, et cetera…
And how has this even been determined a problem? With the price of a real AR-15, particularly a second-hand one, being not that different from that of a high-end airgun…
This is where I was when Vanderboegh’s notice that the ruling has been rescinded came into my inbox. As he notes:
It would seem that I was right when I speculated that somebody maneuvered Deputy Director Kenneth Melson into signing something he did not understand would blow up in his face. He is beginning to look like Charlie Brown and the football. This is not by accident. The Chief Counsel's Office has run ATF for years as temporary directors came and went and they are not interested in any competition. Nor are they interested in cleaning up their act.
The fact remains—ATF has the testing conclusions to execute this aborted ruling if and when they wish to—in fact, if their analysis about what constitutes a United States Code-defined “firearm” is "correct"—and if they don’t know, who does?—this could be a Sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of airgun dealers and owners that could be dropped at any time.
We all realize that a piece of wood, a length of pipe, some rubber bands and a nail could be "easily modified" to construct a working"firearm," that meets the criteria?
That’s no way to run a railroad—or an agency that has the power to destroy people’s lives with its rulings. This debacle—along with so many others—demands investigations and hearings—something I’ve been advocating with no real success for some time.
Perhaps the newly-shaped Congress will be more receptive to this than the previous gaggle of corrupt stonewallers were.
d-usa wrote: You have to be either willfully ignorant or a complete idiot to think that a place that sells gun parts and gun accessories that is open to the general public isn't going to be filled with people that have a very real potential to be armed and that any law enforcement agency serving a warrant shouldn't be prepared in case one of those armed people decided to cause problems.
There are 300mm guns in the US. Under your theory the ATF should constantly walk around with guns drawn ready to blast away at people. Its completely nonsensical. They must be absolutely terrified of shopping malls. People People Everywhere! They could be armed!
God help anyone if they serve a search warrant at home depot. They'd probably blow up the place because someone might attack them a forklift or moderately priced garden mulch. Oh the humanity!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Ouze wrote: Saying that "a child can't readily do it" does not equal "it can't be done". In fact, he said he thinks it could be done.
At the very least it's a matter of some dispute, not an open and shut "lol the ATF seizes BB guns because they are the stoopids" this was presented as.
The gunsmith in the article that you presented even said that he could not do it with minimal work (again, if this is a qualified competent person who cannot convert the receiver), how does that make the item readily convertible per the legislation?
Dreadclaw69 wrote: Still standing by your statement that Ares sells firearms Ouze?
I'm not standing by a statement I never made.
For the record, if they are intentionally skirting the law to make untrceable receivers I'm ok with investigation of the subject. I am not ok with seizing customer lists, especially when there was an injunction against them already (they were clearly judge shopping to get a warrant) and I am not ok with going in like Spetznatz to do it.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Ouze wrote: I don't think it's imprudent for the police, when lawfully raiding a place that is literally chock full of shooting irons, to take reasonable means to defend themselves if things go sideways. I think context matters. This does not extend to previous ATF adventures with armored personnel carriers so lets not build a stawman here, I beg.
The last unsubstantiated rumors I read were that the issue the ATF has is with their process. They make polymer lowers, and it looks like they maybe build a 100% lower and then plug it with a different polymer to make it into an 80%, or possibly vice versa.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: For the record, if they are intentionally skirting the law to make untrceable receivers I'm ok with investigation of the subject. I am not ok with seizing customer lists, especially when there was an injunction against them already (they were clearly judge shopping to get a warrant) and I am not ok with going in like Spetznatz to do it.
I agree with you 100%
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/19 16:01:05
Frazzled wrote: There are 300mm guns in the US. Under your theory the ATF should constantly walk around with guns drawn ready to blast away at people. Its completely nonsensical. They must be absolutely terrified of shopping malls. People People Everywhere! They could be armed!
God help anyone if they serve a search warrant at home depot. They'd probably blow up the place because someone might attack them a forklift or moderately priced garden mulch. Oh the humanity!
Don't forget that fertilizer that could be made into a bomb
Or pool supply store selling chlorine that could be converted into a chemical weapon
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
And super don't forget that a chemical weapon or bomb is actually classified as a WMD!
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
d-usa wrote: You have to be either willfully ignorant or a complete idiot to think that a place that sells gun parts and gun accessories that is open to the general public isn't going to be filled with people that have a very real potential to be armed and that any law enforcement agency serving a warrant shouldn't be prepared in case one of those armed people decided to cause problems.
There are 300mm guns in the US. Under your theory the ATF should constantly walk around with guns drawn ready to blast away at people. Its completely nonsensical. They must be absolutely terrified of shopping malls. People People Everywhere! They could be armed!
To be honest, that doesn't sound too far from a rather common argument in favour of the right to bear arms.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
